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ESP32-C61: Delivering Affordable Wi-Fi 6 Connectivity
- jauntywundrkind 3y agoUnclear to me how this is different from an ESP32-C6? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758050 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758050 https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32_C6 https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32_C6
- IshKebab 3y agoLooks like it's an performance/cost upgrade: > boasting optimized peripherals, improved connectivity, as well as expanded memory options. You're right it does sound almost identical though.
- adolph 3y agoI think it is more like a C3 with Wifi6 than a C6. It has the same clocked RISCV processor and lacks the C6 low power processor and Zigbee baseband/mac. It has more peripherals than C3 but fewer than C6. It has an interestingly named "Power Glitch Detector" unlike the C6's and C3's "Brownout Detector." https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32-c3_datasheet_en.pdf https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/... https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32-c6_datasheet_en.pdf https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/...
- osrec 3y agoOut of interest, has anyone successfully used an ESP32 on a commercial project, or are these intended primarily for hobbyists? Also, what would be considered the go-to chip for commercial applications?
- codexfons 3y agoThis is a niche, but commercial product using ESP32: https://lectronz.com/products/pow-u-han-port-reader-for-m-bus-meters-esp32 https://lectronz.com/products/pow-u-han-port-reader-for-m-bu... I use it and it's crazy how much it can do with close to no power.
- magicalhippo 3y agoMy "smart" water heater[1] has an ESP32 in it. [1]: https://www.hoiax.no/produkter/varmtvannsberedere/smartberedere/hoiax-connected https://www.hoiax.no/produkter/varmtvannsberedere/smartbered...
- bmicraft 3y agoMy dryer too
- epcoa 3y ago> are these intended primarily for hobbyists? They’re not really intended at all for hobbyists. The espressif products are in countless IoT devices. https://www.espressif.com/ https://www.espressif.com/ This is not marketing aimed at hobbyists. Further I think most of the people using ESPHome and the like are reflashing commercial products. > the go-to chip for commercial applications? For a pacemaker, a Mars rover or a video game console? What exactly do you think unifies “commercial application” that would allow narrowing down in such a way. If you’re talking about low cost IoT, there are a handful of vendors including Beken, Realtek, SiLabs, ST, TI, nRF. For this super low cost WiFi/BLE consumer niche espressif is not the only player but they are dominant along with nRF and Beken.
- zwieback 3y agoOne concern is supply chain and working with a Chinese company. If you build something that has to guarantee a 10 or 20 year supply some companies might balk at the ESP32. I think Espressif has jumped over into the "reputable" pool but it could still be a concern.
- moffkalast 3y agoOn the other hand when someone like TI prices their parts at like 30x the cost (e.g. ESP32-WROOM $3, TI CC3235SF $73) you can probably afford to build up a 10 year supply, especially with volume discounts.
- zwieback 3y agoI don't know about this particular comparison but yes, lifetime-buys can be a good strategy.
- tredre3 3y agoEspressif is usually very good with both pricing and availability if you wish to buy in bulk. I bought 1000 ESP32-S2 chips (not modules) for a project, it cost me a grand total of 1200 bucks as a nobody. During the height of the shortage from most western manufacturers too!
- zwieback 3y agoWe started an ESP32-based design but for internal R&D purposes, within our inkjet manufacturing division. In that sense it's not commercial but uses professional toolsets and contract manufacturing etc., assurance of supply and supply chains. In the past we mainly used STM32 both because it's a great chip and because we have a tight relationship with ST. However, some of the younger employees we recently brought on are big fans of the ESP32 and we thought "why not give the youngsters a chance". It's looking really promising, the ESP32 nicely fills the niche between low-level Arduino-like micros and Linux-based larger boards like the Pi.
- adolph 3y agoProducts based on the Makerbase spindle/laser engraver, like all the inexpensive 3018 CNCs, all use an older ESP32. https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-DLC32 https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-DLC32 Many/all of the Sonoff smart home things use various ESP chips: https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/06/17/sonoff-pow-elite-esp32-wifi-power-meter-switch-handles-up-to-20a-load/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/06/17/sonoff-pow-elite-esp...
- coupdejarnac 3y agoI always get a chuckle when people asked if these are used in commercial projects. The answer is yes, they are in millions of devices.
- bmicraft 3y agoNot just millions, apparently they some a billion chips (according to their website)
- xchip 3y agoCould you name a few?
- Eisenstein 3y ago* https://devices.esphome.io/board/esp32 https://devices.esphome.io/board/esp32
- testmasterflex 3y agoNext version of https://loodio.com https://loodio.com :-)
- stockhorn 3y agoWe're building an iot product based on the esp32c6. The rust support is fantastic, making it a good choice to write stable firmware for it.
- wildzzz 3y agoMy dad has a little gadget for his big green egg that monitors and adjusts the temperature by controlling a small fan at the air intake. You can check the temperature over WiFi either through their app or on a very basic webpage the device serves. I peeked inside once and it's definitely a basic ESP8266 module mounted to a board. It's the perfect module for this kind of application. An ESP32 would be a little bit of overkill for this kind of application unless you wanted to add a display or some other extra processing load to the hardware. A module from Nordic would also be appropriate.
- lozaning 3y agoTraegerdoesn't even bother changing the OUI on the espressif module they put in their wifi connected smokers.
- bierjunge 3y agoYes, I've used it in a commercial product with 10000+ deployments. It was the only chip with BLE and WiFi, so there was no other option at the time. If the requirements were different, I would use something from Nordic Semiconductors [0] or some ARMv8 chip. The hardware itself is fine, but the biggest pain was getting stable WiFi and BLE connections simultaneously, because of only one antenna/radio. RAM was also a problem, it would be great to have at least 512kb. The SDK from Espressif is sometimes a little bit weird, but usable and bugs are fixed quickly. The build system is ok, nothing special. [0] https://www.nordicsemi.com/ https://www.nordicsemi.com/
- mardifoufs 3y agoI think the more recent esp32s3 have 512kb of ram, with support for 32mb of external ram on the board! Makes it easy easier to work with
- tredre3 3y agoThe original ESP32 also has 512KB of RAM but some is reserved for instruction and flash cache. So on both the OG and the S3 you end up with about 350KB usable. Wifi is manageable but bluetooth will use most of it. That said both the original ESP32 and the S3 support external PSRAM (4MB* for the og, 32MB for the S3). You can buy modules with such RAM already (which you would likely do for most deployment), but if you really need a single chip solution they also sell the ESP32 chips with that "external" RAM embedded in it (albeit in smaller qty, like 2MB). * The OG actually supports 8MB but only the first 4MB is directly addressable, you have to handle bankswitching yourself to access more.
- mardifoufs 3y agoOh I think I got confused with the ESP32s with integrated "external" ram. And yeah, I think I was comparing them to the esp8xxx, which obviously have less ram. Still, the esp32 hasn't changed that much since the first version then I guess. I mean except for all the peripherals!
- brk 3y agoNot yet (in development), but there are literally 10's of millions of these powering common commercialized devices at this point. I have several controllable LED light bulbs that are all ESP-based, bought on Amazon. Lot's of sensors, and general business and consumer oriented stuff using ESP8266 and ESP32 chips.
- r3dey3 3y agoYoto Mini (https://us.yotoplay.com/yoto-mini https://us.yotoplay.com/yoto-mini) is based around an esp32
- 0x000xca0xfe 3y agoAFAIK Shelly is the biggest customer of ESP32 chips. They sell cheap but relatively reliable smart home WiFi devices with a local web server that are really popular.
- slau 3y agoI’ve designed a few boards with ESP32s on them. Sometimes as a secondary system to provide wifi/ble, sometimes as the main microcontroller. One example was a commercial display using these P4 panels to display an 8-bit themed animation, and another one where a bunch of old small green CRTs were wired together to display the same “command prompt”-style text displaying the opening hours and other information. STM32 would be the other big family of microcontrollers. And if you can get your hands on them, and need the vastly more powerful capabilities, the i.MX series can be interesting.
- odiroot 3y agoThe even lower powered ESP8266 is used in countless WiFi smart plugs and bulbs.
- stavros 3y agoSonoff devices use the ESP8266 extensively.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- leptons 3y agoI'm not sure why this keeps coming up. Why wouldn't ESP32 be used in commercial products?? >Also, what would be considered the go-to chip for commercial applications? ESP32, if it fits the product needs. There are as many types of microcontrollers as there are needs for specific functionality. ESP32 fits practically any application that needs a microcontroller and wifi or bluetooth. That's the description of quite a lot of IoT products.
- paradox460 3y agoDon't sonoff products use esp32
- haddonist 3y agoNew generation of Sonoff products are mostly moving to ESP32. The older ones still available are ESP8266 or similar.
- magicalhippo 3y ago> or are these intended primarily for hobbyists? Cheap ICs and hobbyists-only do not go together. Cheap hobbyists ICs are almost invariably cheap because there's substantial commercial volume, and someone figured they could work for hobbyists as well.
- chpatrick 3y agoThere are thousands of commercial products on AliExpress based on ESP32.
- javawizard 3y agoVery small data point: I happened to have my Harvest Right freeze dryer opened up the other day and discovered it had an ESP32 on the control board. Why, I have no idea - they don't support any form of app-based control at the moment. Maybe they're intending to do so in the future?
- haddonist 3y agoAnother example of a very successful commercial product is the P1x series of printers from Bambu Labs. The main chip is an ESP32.
- londons_explore 3y agoNote how this might be "Wifi 6", but it's still 2.4Ghz only and as far as I can see still single antenna (making most mimo functionality useless). Target Wake Time looks like the only feature that might be useful (reduces battery consumption substantially), but few applications can make use of that yet because your product still needs to work if the user has an old router which doesn't support it. Other ESP32's in the range don't get more than about 20Mbps throughput under ideal conditions, so it probably isn't exactly a beast in the wifi performance department. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the same silicon with an upgraded firmware to enable this new functionality.
- bmicraft 3y agoShouldn't the fact that it's WiFi 6 mean it uses much less air time? I thought WiFi 6 was designed for this scenario with many clients. 2.4GHz is a bonus for low bandwidth iot devices where range trumps throughout.
- lxgr 3y agoAs long as there isn't any other stuff on 2.4 GHz, it can indeed be beneficial. But if there are any legacy 802.11 (especially pre-802.11n) or non-802.11 transmitters nearby, it can be catastrophic for throughput, both because you need protective measures when transmitting (so that older 802.11 versions can reliably detect your transmissions as occupying the carrier) and because some of them just don't cooperate well with 802.11 at all (e.g. Bluetooth, which will just happily transmit over 802.11 without any regard for CSMA/CA fairness at all).
- DiabloD3 3y agoYes, 802.11ax added all the technology required to allow subchannel slicing in both the time and frequency domains. Lets say you had a 5ghz 8x8 160mhz AP (maximum allowable by spec): if all you had were 1x1 20mhz clients, you could theoretically have 64 different clients concurrently communicating with the AP without any real problems. 2.4ghz does not have 160mhz channels, but allows up to 40mhz. Ignoring the fact that 2.4ghz is incredibly congested, and you will never achieve peak performance, you can still achieve a theoretical maximum (again, with 1x1 20mhz clients) of 16 concurrent clients. That said, I'm more interested in 802.11be: MIMO across bands. Instead of hard disabling 2.4ghz (which I 100% recommend all people do: this cures all Wifi ills; and if you have a building that eats 5ghz, either move or spam APs), the AP will dynamically use 2.4ghz as a possible MIMO band. Theoretical maximum configuration of 802.11be is 40+160+320 (one 40mhz 2.4ghz channel, one 160mhz 5ghz channel, 1 320mhz 6ghz channel), and 802.11be devices will simultaneously communicate across all of them; maximum MIMO configuration has also been increased to 16. In other words, the future is an AP that looks like a hedgehog, and has 10gbit port.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jve 3y agoJust yesterday was looking at ESP32 custom board used to open/close gates which has super weak signal even when access point is only few meters apart... I found that there is empty place where external antenna connects - I think I can solder the connector and connect the antenna. Is there any article out there that would help me do it? As I understand there needs to be some resistor that should be desoldered or existing link to on-board antenna cut.
- BizarroLand 3y agoThat's about it. Antennas aren't anything but wire or a small sheet of metal, all you need is something to increase the amount of metal exposed to the signal. This is a quick & dirty diy "solder on some more metal & an antenna" tutorial: https://community.home-assistant.io/t/how-to-add-an-external-antenna-to-an-esp-board/131601 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/how-to-add-an-external... Solder mask might have been a better cover than the one shown, but the hot glue would do in a pinch. Also, as far as resistor goes, there is no spec for the resistor. It's a jumper, that's all.
- jve 3y agoExcellent article! This is what I was hoping to find. Luckily I have some solder mask and UV light laying around :) Thank you.
- frontierkodiak 3y agoYMMV, but I have tried this several times and have found it very difficult without microsoldering equipment. Some ESP variants have a built-in U.FL connector which makes things easier (e.g. AITHINKER ESP32-Cam and its many clones), but you still have to remove the 0Ω resistor, which I find very difficult with even the smallest tips on my Hakko iron. Could be a skill issue on my end; should be much easier if you have a simple reflow/rework station.
- calamari4065 3y agoThe antennas are a commodity item. You can get them dirt cheap at your least favorite online retailer. The connector is most likely a uFL type. You could also ditch the connector and solder the antenna lead directly to the board. Outer grounding braid goes to ground, inner conductor is the signal.
- Havoc 3y agoWhile I’m glad there progressing I suspect I’ll continue to buy 2.4ghz wifi 5 ones. I park all my IOT stuff on that to keep 5 and 6 ghz clean for key device.
- 0x000xca0xfe 3y agoI wonder what RISC-V core they are using, a custom design?
- ipython 3y agoI will start by saying I am not an embedded engineer. Given that I am but a consumer of about a dozen different IoT devices, I would love it if embedded wifi chipsets didn’t suck so much. I don’t care if it’s WiFi 4, just make them not suck. Each manufacturer seems to have their own little quirks you need to work around: one device only works well on 2.4 channel 1, another will aggressively roam to other access points (even though it and the ap are stationary, and the closest ap has < -60dbm signal). Even the most relatively well behaved modules will disconnect and reconnect constantly (average connection time is ~10 minutes to an hour, mind you the device is constantly connected to mains power). God forbid you enable any 802.11 extensions on the radio servicing those devices, then you’re really in for a world of hurt. Then when you complain to the manufacturer, you get super helpful advice like “factory reset your router” and “open the following 28 ports through your nat gateway to our device” (sooooo… and if I have two of your devices, what then?). It’s a total shitshow.
- fusslo 3y agoAs an embedded engineer, I also wish wifi chipsets didn't suck so much Back when I was working on homekit smart products, we would test our products against a huge swath of wifi routers, including apple's. There was a handful of conformity tests we'd run, including Bonjour, DHCP, arp, etc. I don't think a single router passed every test, including Apple's. So our wifi stack was pretty good, but we also had to watch out for all these corner cases of different vendors and how they don't behave to spec. Its been about 6 years since I was full time in wifi, and I hope we've progressed, but I doubt it
- seba_dos1 3y agoI'd like to read something about the naming scheme behind the ESP32 series, it seems... interesting.
- squarefoot 3y agoI wonder if the lack of 5GHz band could be to avoid being forced to become DFS compliant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_selection
- phoenk 3y agoI would assume it just isn't a requirement in the majority of IoT projects, and omitting it saves on cost.
- zamadatix 3y agoThey could just choose to always leave the DFS 5 GHz frequencies disabled but I don't think that's really a huge burden one way or the other after building the rest of a Wi-Fi chip and stack.
- nevi-me 3y agoThey should have named it C8, the have will be confusing. It also doesn't feel like much of an upgrade to the C3.
- andrewstuart 3y agoNo DAC? Boo.
- ryukoposting 3y agoUgh, still no 5GHz. I was just complaining about this in a blog post. ESP32's greatest strength continues to be its price.
- childintime 3y agoHow does the shared single core impact the application vs having a dedicated core on the original ESP32? Also, why did they move to a single core, as I've seen a die shot of the ESP32, and the cores were only a fraction. 90% of the die went to RAM and the radio.