4 ms·

> Not a knock on EV's really, mostly the charging infrastructure and the rental experience. But why not knock on them? They had a lot of promise and a lot of h

by rdtsc 3y ago

> Not a knock on EV's really, mostly the charging infrastructure and the rental experience. But why not knock on them? They had a lot of promise and a lot of hype when they were being touted as simpler and cheaper and just overall better. Somehow they ended up being more expensive, unless we're talking about Chinese brands, more costly to insure, a longer time to charge than a corresponding IC car and incompatible charging networks. I think they can handle a bit of criticism, it's a big industry, and it can deal with some minor criticism from an orange hacker forum.

hiddencost 3y ago
I think you're confused. The future predictions that you all listed are right. No one promised them to you this year. The subsidies exist to support the market until the market can support itself. Taking on those kinds of costs is one one of the intrinsic functions (and reasons to exist) of a government. There were certainly mistakes (e.g., not supervising VW properly when they went full DGAF on the electricify america rollout). The parent is saying they still believe in the analysis that electric will work, they just spent their whole comment criticizing their EV experience.
starbugs 3y ago
> Somehow they ended up being more expensive, unless we're talking about Chinese brands The Chinese brands' pricing seems to be at least in part due to subsidies: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsid... At least that's what the EU says. > But why not knock on them? I would agree that the discussion on EVs is a bit misguided in general. It always is EVs or ICE cars and EVs must be the winner otherwise you are "confused" or "out of your mind". In reality, both can coexist and have a place for what they are really good at.
- Sebb767 3y ago
  From your link: > The anti-subsidy investigation covers battery-powered cars from China, so also includes non-Chinese brands made there, such as Tesla (TSLA.O), Renault (RENA.PA) and BMW (BMWG.DE). It is also unusual in that it is brought by the European Commission itself, rather than in response to an industry complaint. This does seem like more of a political play rather than China actually trying to flood western markets, especially considering that western EV producers are also being subsidized and that the Chinese domestic market is sufficiently large by itself.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > This does seem like more of a political play Agreed. That's why I added "At least that's what the EU says." The EU is clearly whining because the Chinese local market imploded, so they are now exporting more of their cars into the EU markets. Yet, articles like the linked one make it unclear to me what part of EV production is really subsidized and what part is not. I think it would be advisable to be cautious about claims that they are already cheaper than ICE cars. At least, that's how I am looking at it currently.
    - toyg 3y ago
      There might be more than reflexive whining at play, considering the review will include European manufacturers. The Commission might be trying to gear up towards some sort of EU-wide subsidy program to match the Chinese one. It's the sort of thing that individual EU governments are explicitly banned from, by Common Market rules; but when the push comes from some of the biggest German and French businesses, a solution has to be found.
      - petre 3y ago
        Don't worry. The EU manufacturers will get slap on the wrist, while the Chinese ones shall be hit with huge fines, tariffs and other EU antics.
        starbugs 3y ago
        And the consumer will pay for it.
    - foofie 3y ago
      > The EU is clearly whining because the Chinese local market imploded, so they are now exporting more of their cars into the EU markets. I think it's disingenuous to downplay EU's response as "whining". The automotive industry is a strategic sector, not only in terms of economy but also directly and indirectly in defense. Shifting demand from the internal market to the output of a rival and potential threat means spending their own cash financing a rival to place it in a controlling position.
light_hue_1 3y ago
If you have a Tesla the charging story is wonderful. The car finds chargers on it's own. It shows you exactly what's available at each charger. Hardly anything is ever broken. EVs are far easier and more convenient than gas cars. It's the non Tesla infrastructure that just sucks.
- culturestate 3y ago
  > EVs are far easier and more convenient than gas cars. EVs certainly have some advantages, but for most of the world's population "convenience" isn't one of them. If you live in a house with a garage where you can install a charger and you use your car mostly as a runabout, it's great. The majority of the western world lives in cities with street parking and fewer chargers than vehicles, though, and in that situation it's far more convenient to spend five minutes at the gas station on your way to the office than it is to find a spot to charge your car for three hours which may or may not be anywhere close to where you actually need to go.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    If by "majority" you mean, a small minority, then you're spot on! All you have to do is look at the census. 2/3rds of households have a garage or carport. If you add to this the number of people with private parking, that's like 80+% of people who can have chargers subsidized by the state. It's always important to look at numbers before you get trapped in your bubble.
    - culturestate 3y ago
      > If by "majority" you mean, a small minority, then you're spot on! ... It's always important to look at numbers before you get trapped in your bubble. Speaking of bubbles, I wrote "majority of the western world," which admittedly surprisingly stretches beyond America. Two-thirds of households in, say, Berlin absolutely do not have carports, garages, or private parking.
      - AdamN 3y ago
foofie 3y ago
> But why not knock on them? They had a lot of promise and a lot of hype when they were being touted as simpler and cheaper and just overall better. Somehow they ended up being more expensive, (...) I don't think EVs were ever sold as cheaper or overall better. I recall they were marketed as cheaper to run on short commutes, but at the expense of having a large upfront price, having shorter autonomies, and requiring relatively high logistics and route planning. There's also the environmental and geopolitical angle, but it was always clear that potential customers were expected to pay a premium for that privilege. In fact, many countries even put together hefty subsidy programs to make EVs more competitive.

by rdtsc 3y ago

hiddencost 3y ago

I think you're confused. The future predictions that you all listed are right. No one promised them to you this year. The subsidies exist to support the market until the market can support itself. Taking on those kinds of costs is one one of the intrinsic functions (and reasons to exist) of a government. There were certainly mistakes (e.g., not supervising VW properly when they went full DGAF on the electricify america rollout). The parent is saying they still believe in the analysis that electric will work, they just spent their whole comment criticizing their EV experience.

starbugs 3y ago

> Somehow they ended up being more expensive, unless we're talking about Chinese brands The Chinese brands' pricing seems to be at least in part due to subsidies: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsid... At least that's what the EU says. > But why not knock on them? I would agree that the discussion on EVs is a bit misguided in general. It always is EVs or ICE cars and EVs must be the winner otherwise you are "confused" or "out of your mind". In reality, both can coexist and have a place for what they are really good at.

Sebb767 3y ago
From your link: > The anti-subsidy investigation covers battery-powered cars from China, so also includes non-Chinese brands made there, such as Tesla (TSLA.O), Renault (RENA.PA) and BMW (BMWG.DE). It is also unusual in that it is brought by the European Commission itself, rather than in response to an industry complaint. This does seem like more of a political play rather than China actually trying to flood western markets, especially considering that western EV producers are also being subsidized and that the Chinese domestic market is sufficiently large by itself.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > This does seem like more of a political play Agreed. That's why I added "At least that's what the EU says." The EU is clearly whining because the Chinese local market imploded, so they are now exporting more of their cars into the EU markets. Yet, articles like the linked one make it unclear to me what part of EV production is really subsidized and what part is not. I think it would be advisable to be cautious about claims that they are already cheaper than ICE cars. At least, that's how I am looking at it currently.
  - toyg 3y ago
    There might be more than reflexive whining at play, considering the review will include European manufacturers. The Commission might be trying to gear up towards some sort of EU-wide subsidy program to match the Chinese one. It's the sort of thing that individual EU governments are explicitly banned from, by Common Market rules; but when the push comes from some of the biggest German and French businesses, a solution has to be found.
    - petre 3y ago
      Don't worry. The EU manufacturers will get slap on the wrist, while the Chinese ones shall be hit with huge fines, tariffs and other EU antics.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        And the consumer will pay for it.
  - foofie 3y ago
    > The EU is clearly whining because the Chinese local market imploded, so they are now exporting more of their cars into the EU markets. I think it's disingenuous to downplay EU's response as "whining". The automotive industry is a strategic sector, not only in terms of economy but also directly and indirectly in defense. Shifting demand from the internal market to the output of a rival and potential threat means spending their own cash financing a rival to place it in a controlling position.

light_hue_1 3y ago

If you have a Tesla the charging story is wonderful. The car finds chargers on it's own. It shows you exactly what's available at each charger. Hardly anything is ever broken. EVs are far easier and more convenient than gas cars. It's the non Tesla infrastructure that just sucks.

culturestate 3y ago
> EVs are far easier and more convenient than gas cars. EVs certainly have some advantages, but for most of the world's population "convenience" isn't one of them. If you live in a house with a garage where you can install a charger and you use your car mostly as a runabout, it's great. The majority of the western world lives in cities with street parking and fewer chargers than vehicles, though, and in that situation it's far more convenient to spend five minutes at the gas station on your way to the office than it is to find a spot to charge your car for three hours which may or may not be anywhere close to where you actually need to go.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  If by "majority" you mean, a small minority, then you're spot on! All you have to do is look at the census. 2/3rds of households have a garage or carport. If you add to this the number of people with private parking, that's like 80+% of people who can have chargers subsidized by the state. It's always important to look at numbers before you get trapped in your bubble.
  - culturestate 3y ago
    > If by "majority" you mean, a small minority, then you're spot on! ... It's always important to look at numbers before you get trapped in your bubble. Speaking of bubbles, I wrote "majority of the western world," which admittedly surprisingly stretches beyond America. Two-thirds of households in, say, Berlin absolutely do not have carports, garages, or private parking.
    - AdamN 3y ago

foofie 3y ago

> But why not knock on them? They had a lot of promise and a lot of hype when they were being touted as simpler and cheaper and just overall better. Somehow they ended up being more expensive, (...) I don't think EVs were ever sold as cheaper or overall better. I recall they were marketed as cheaper to run on short commutes, but at the expense of having a large upfront price, having shorter autonomies, and requiring relatively high logistics and route planning. There's also the environmental and geopolitical angle, but it was always clear that potential customers were expected to pay a premium for that privilege. In fact, many countries even put together hefty subsidy programs to make EVs more competitive.