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Nah, she did well by frustrating the process. Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. Telling her she was getting fired du

Nah, she did well by frustrating the process. Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. Telling her she was getting fired due to her own performance is just that. In my books she did well, hope she starts a gig on her own to never have to deal with NPCs such as those two. They feed on people’s misery.

ajmurmann 3y ago
No need to dehumanize anyone
- dylan604 3y ago
  Why not? It is precisely what these HR people are doing to every person they call.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. I'm sure there are some sadists out there who take pleasure in this kind of meeting, but I'm just as sure that for every one of those, there are a hundred (or a thousand) people for whom this is the worst part of their job, who go home and hug their kids with watery eyes at the end of a day that was horrible for them. You aren't mad at them, you're mad at the people making the decisions that are upstream of these meetings.
    - krainboltgreene 3y ago
      > Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. Then they should not do that job.
      - sanderjd 3y ago
        What do you suggest for making this statement realistic? People who work in HR do useful things. I have leaned on "people operations" support in most companies I've worked for, they do recruitment and policies on employee behavior and performance management and a bunch of other things. This is all valuable work. I'm glad it's not what I do for work, but it would be a much suckier world if nobody chose to do this work. But they are also asked by company leadership to be the buffer, to be the messenger that gets "shot", when bad or even necessary but incredibly painful decisions are made. It's part of the expectations of the people who hire them, that they'll do that. So what do you suggest? Do all the other useful stuff, but then when asked to be that buffer in these shitty moments, they should quit and find a new job? What should they say when asked why they quit? Is it ethical to lie about it, or do they tell a prospective new employer that there is an expected part of the role they're applying for that they are not willing to do? Or is your suggestion something better? Like perhaps there could be a professional guild for HR professionals, and they could have a code of ethics that makes it clear that this is not something they will do. I think that would be pretty great! But that would be a much bigger and entirely different project that individuals quitting in protest. Or perhaps your suggestion is, actually, that there should be nobody working in HR, that it is not a useful function. In that case, no, that's wrong, I've worked with many smart technically inclined people who think this, and I've worked at companies that are led by people who believe this, and it sucks. I'm all for shifting the expectation of who has the responsibility for delivering the news of shitty decisions onto the management that made the decisions, but there has to be some theory of the case for how to get there from here.
        Loggias 3y ago
        [dead]
    - koonsolo 3y ago
      It's all about the ethics of it. If my employer tells me to call a person and tell them they are fired because they did a bad job, but it's clear that this is not the reason, I would say: sorry, but I'm not going to do that. Remember, it's an "employer", not a "boss".
      - sanderjd 3y ago
        I totally agree that people should strive to have an ethical center in their work and refuse to do unethical things when asked by their employers. (But for what it's worth, this doesn't seem to me like a cut and dry description of what happened here; sales is a very cut-throat quota sensitive profession in my experience.) But nevertheless, I empathize with people who also have to figure out how to put food on their own family's table, in a profession (HR) that is itself very sensitive to downturns. The comments in this thread read to me like software developers who have not faced a world where it is not easy get a better new job easily after quitting one that sucks, and / or who are young and unattached with very few expenses, and struggle to put themselves in the shoes of someone for whom a principled resignation could have devastating consequences. It just seems to me like a classic case of shooting the messenger.
      - occamsrazorwit 3y ago
        > it's clear that this is not the reason In this case, it's not clear that this isn't the reason. That's something the laidoff employee calls out herself; the HR people aren't familiar with her KPIs or work. They don't have any expertise in her industry, and it's unreasonable to expect that.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
IvyMike 3y ago
> Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but this made me LOL.
NicoJuicy 3y ago
> In my books she did well, You don't have the details and she had 0 sales. You're basing yourself on a TikTok video, with someone who knew it was being recorded and acted accordingly. Eg. Cloudflare 's products are very technical and perhaps she has too little general IT knowledge to be able to close a deal ( she mentioned to have 3 chances and closed 0 )
- jsiepkes 3y ago
  That's the whole point right? They are firing someone with 0 details. If you can't tell someone why you are firing them you are just incompetent and those HR people should be ashamed of themselves. You should be able to say something like: Look, we have a rule that you have to make a sale in your first three months. You failed that. Also from what we've seen our feeling is that you are not going to make it in 4 or 5 months so we think extending that period is not going to help. I also definitely don't understand how you can fire someone without having their direct manager in the call. There is just a lot of sugar coating and hollow words without any meaningful information.
- boh_grey 3y ago
  As someone very close to an ex-CF employee, I can state with authority that the company does very little to help it's employees come up to speed. Their training process is essentially a bunch of CF employees doing unimpressive powerpoint presentations. Their internal documentation is a huge Wiki and it's not really very well maintained. Their internal config management system is absolute trash and I'm convinced that the only reason they stay in business is they've got a few long-time internal employees who know how everything REALLY works. So, I can understand how someone without the experience inside of the company can come to the conclusion that this is justified but CF's process is essentially a broken recruiting and training pipeline connected to a woefully unimpressive sales and support org. The dysfunction is endemic to the organization and nothing short of a major calamity or a change of leadership will expose it. For my part, I've warned off high-performing colleagues who knew of my connection and wanted the inside scoop after getting called by CF recruiters. Nobody to my knowledge ever accepted a role there after talking to me privately. I'd imagine part of the problem at CF is that the real 100x engineers know better than to suffer in a poor work environment. I was sent this Tiktok link by someone who reached out to me to thank me for the culture warning. If I was a strong candidate I'd be very wary of a CF promise. Caveat emptor.
sanderjd 3y ago
Who, exactly, do you think is going to "think twice" next time? It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "think twice" about business leaders assigning fairly low level employees or consultants to do these meetings just like this. There was a whole gag about exactly this in one of the last few episodes of Succession just recently. There have been popular movies about this ("Up in the Air", with George Clooney, is about this, if memory serves). It's not, like, a secret that this is how it works. It sucks, but no, this video going "viral" is not going to change anything.
- cstrahan 3y ago
  > It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "think twice" about business leaders assigning fairly low level employees or consultants to do these meetings just like this. No, avoiding the words "we're laying you off" by lying about your performance and telling you that you're instead being fired is not "how this has been done for decades".
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    You don't think employers have pretty much always tried to avoid being required to pay severance and unemployment? If so, that seems to me like an unrealistically rosy view of the past.
    - cstrahan 3y ago
      I’m well aware that bad behavior is a thing. Some driver’s cut each other off in traffic, weaving in and out of lanes. Some customers condescend to service workers, knowing they can’t retaliate without losing their jobs. And some reprobate employers do shitty things like we’re seeing here. Are you really arguing against me when I say that this is exceptionally abhorrent? That’s all I’m saying: that this isn’t the kind of thing to shrug at. There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus.
epolanski 3y ago
> In my books she did well Hire her as your saleswoman then. And mind everything you do/say or you'll end up bashed in front of all the internet.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Software developers are used to being docile, but in oder industries being brave is a virtue. She’d make an excellent lawyer or leader. I dont understand why fellow workers are so angry at her if not the fear and terror at being in her shoes. Anxiety is common among keyboard operators. Watching this video is a great tutorial on how to change that.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - op00to 3y ago
    Nothing she did helped her find a new job, nor did it help her keep her old job. I think the term is "pissing into the wind".
    - westpfelia 3y ago
      I mean youre wrong. Anyone worth their salt is going to see that she clearly laid out what she was doing right, how fast in a 3 month time period she was ramping up to the product and had already made inroads with her customers. You want sales people who are that assertive.
- Balooga 3y ago
  I don't know. Maybe treat others as you yourself would like to be treated?
  - op00to 3y ago
    Sales is not "fair", like engineering is "fair". If a salesperson fails to make the sale, everyone else in the company suffers. If enough salespeople suck, then no one has jobs.

ajmurmann 3y ago

No need to dehumanize anyone

dylan604 3y ago
Why not? It is precisely what these HR people are doing to every person they call.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. I'm sure there are some sadists out there who take pleasure in this kind of meeting, but I'm just as sure that for every one of those, there are a hundred (or a thousand) people for whom this is the worst part of their job, who go home and hug their kids with watery eyes at the end of a day that was horrible for them. You aren't mad at them, you're mad at the people making the decisions that are upstream of these meetings.
  - krainboltgreene 3y ago
    > Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. Then they should not do that job.
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      What do you suggest for making this statement realistic? People who work in HR do useful things. I have leaned on "people operations" support in most companies I've worked for, they do recruitment and policies on employee behavior and performance management and a bunch of other things. This is all valuable work. I'm glad it's not what I do for work, but it would be a much suckier world if nobody chose to do this work. But they are also asked by company leadership to be the buffer, to be the messenger that gets "shot", when bad or even necessary but incredibly painful decisions are made. It's part of the expectations of the people who hire them, that they'll do that. So what do you suggest? Do all the other useful stuff, but then when asked to be that buffer in these shitty moments, they should quit and find a new job? What should they say when asked why they quit? Is it ethical to lie about it, or do they tell a prospective new employer that there is an expected part of the role they're applying for that they are not willing to do? Or is your suggestion something better? Like perhaps there could be a professional guild for HR professionals, and they could have a code of ethics that makes it clear that this is not something they will do. I think that would be pretty great! But that would be a much bigger and entirely different project that individuals quitting in protest. Or perhaps your suggestion is, actually, that there should be nobody working in HR, that it is not a useful function. In that case, no, that's wrong, I've worked with many smart technically inclined people who think this, and I've worked at companies that are led by people who believe this, and it sucks. I'm all for shifting the expectation of who has the responsibility for delivering the news of shitty decisions onto the management that made the decisions, but there has to be some theory of the case for how to get there from here.
      - Loggias 3y ago
        [dead]
  - koonsolo 3y ago
    It's all about the ethics of it. If my employer tells me to call a person and tell them they are fired because they did a bad job, but it's clear that this is not the reason, I would say: sorry, but I'm not going to do that. Remember, it's an "employer", not a "boss".
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      I totally agree that people should strive to have an ethical center in their work and refuse to do unethical things when asked by their employers. (But for what it's worth, this doesn't seem to me like a cut and dry description of what happened here; sales is a very cut-throat quota sensitive profession in my experience.) But nevertheless, I empathize with people who also have to figure out how to put food on their own family's table, in a profession (HR) that is itself very sensitive to downturns. The comments in this thread read to me like software developers who have not faced a world where it is not easy get a better new job easily after quitting one that sucks, and / or who are young and unattached with very few expenses, and struggle to put themselves in the shoes of someone for whom a principled resignation could have devastating consequences. It just seems to me like a classic case of shooting the messenger.
    - occamsrazorwit 3y ago
      > it's clear that this is not the reason In this case, it's not clear that this isn't the reason. That's something the laidoff employee calls out herself; the HR people aren't familiar with her KPIs or work. They don't have any expertise in her industry, and it's unreasonable to expect that.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

IvyMike 3y ago

> Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but this made me LOL.

NicoJuicy 3y ago

> In my books she did well, You don't have the details and she had 0 sales. You're basing yourself on a TikTok video, with someone who knew it was being recorded and acted accordingly. Eg. Cloudflare 's products are very technical and perhaps she has too little general IT knowledge to be able to close a deal ( she mentioned to have 3 chances and closed 0 )

jsiepkes 3y ago
That's the whole point right? They are firing someone with 0 details. If you can't tell someone why you are firing them you are just incompetent and those HR people should be ashamed of themselves. You should be able to say something like: Look, we have a rule that you have to make a sale in your first three months. You failed that. Also from what we've seen our feeling is that you are not going to make it in 4 or 5 months so we think extending that period is not going to help. I also definitely don't understand how you can fire someone without having their direct manager in the call. There is just a lot of sugar coating and hollow words without any meaningful information.
boh_grey 3y ago
As someone very close to an ex-CF employee, I can state with authority that the company does very little to help it's employees come up to speed. Their training process is essentially a bunch of CF employees doing unimpressive powerpoint presentations. Their internal documentation is a huge Wiki and it's not really very well maintained. Their internal config management system is absolute trash and I'm convinced that the only reason they stay in business is they've got a few long-time internal employees who know how everything REALLY works. So, I can understand how someone without the experience inside of the company can come to the conclusion that this is justified but CF's process is essentially a broken recruiting and training pipeline connected to a woefully unimpressive sales and support org. The dysfunction is endemic to the organization and nothing short of a major calamity or a change of leadership will expose it. For my part, I've warned off high-performing colleagues who knew of my connection and wanted the inside scoop after getting called by CF recruiters. Nobody to my knowledge ever accepted a role there after talking to me privately. I'd imagine part of the problem at CF is that the real 100x engineers know better than to suffer in a poor work environment. I was sent this Tiktok link by someone who reached out to me to thank me for the culture warning. If I was a strong candidate I'd be very wary of a CF promise. Caveat emptor.

sanderjd 3y ago

Who, exactly, do you think is going to "think twice" next time? It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "think twice" about business leaders assigning fairly low level employees or consultants to do these meetings just like this. There was a whole gag about exactly this in one of the last few episodes of Succession just recently. There have been popular movies about this ("Up in the Air", with George Clooney, is about this, if memory serves). It's not, like, a secret that this is how it works. It sucks, but no, this video going "viral" is not going to change anything.

cstrahan 3y ago
> It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "think twice" about business leaders assigning fairly low level employees or consultants to do these meetings just like this. No, avoiding the words "we're laying you off" by lying about your performance and telling you that you're instead being fired is not "how this has been done for decades".
- sanderjd 3y ago
  You don't think employers have pretty much always tried to avoid being required to pay severance and unemployment? If so, that seems to me like an unrealistically rosy view of the past.
  - cstrahan 3y ago
    I’m well aware that bad behavior is a thing. Some driver’s cut each other off in traffic, weaving in and out of lanes. Some customers condescend to service workers, knowing they can’t retaliate without losing their jobs. And some reprobate employers do shitty things like we’re seeing here. Are you really arguing against me when I say that this is exceptionally abhorrent? That’s all I’m saying: that this isn’t the kind of thing to shrug at. There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus.

epolanski 3y ago

> In my books she did well Hire her as your saleswoman then. And mind everything you do/say or you'll end up bashed in front of all the internet.

gumballindie 3y ago
Software developers are used to being docile, but in oder industries being brave is a virtue. She’d make an excellent lawyer or leader. I dont understand why fellow workers are so angry at her if not the fear and terror at being in her shoes. Anxiety is common among keyboard operators. Watching this video is a great tutorial on how to change that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- op00to 3y ago
  Nothing she did helped her find a new job, nor did it help her keep her old job. I think the term is "pissing into the wind".
  - westpfelia 3y ago
    I mean youre wrong. Anyone worth their salt is going to see that she clearly laid out what she was doing right, how fast in a 3 month time period she was ramping up to the product and had already made inroads with her customers. You want sales people who are that assertive.
Balooga 3y ago
I don't know. Maybe treat others as you yourself would like to be treated?
- op00to 3y ago
  Sales is not "fair", like engineering is "fair". If a salesperson fails to make the sale, everyone else in the company suffers. If enough salespeople suck, then no one has jobs.