30 ms·

Cloudflare lays off new hires

305 points by KyleSanderson 3y ago

KyleSanderson 3y ago
Plenty of these on LI today unfortunately. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsales-channelsales-activity-7151300656689987584-86oZ/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsale... https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/1745149758992195647 https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  1 is the same as posted there fyi
  - KyleSanderson 3y ago
    Check the comments - lots of others.
- neom 3y ago
  Yikes on that second link, I seriously hope she told them she was recording the call or she may run into some two-party consent issues.
  - nekoeth0 3y ago
    38 states (and DC) require one-party consent, so, depends.
  - nixgeek 3y ago
    She's in Virginia (according to LinkedIn), which is a one-party consent state.
  - lgleason 3y ago
    Her Linkedin says she's in Atlanta. Either way, I doubt she will get severance after that and if Cloudflare wants to make a point they could try to go after her for a violation of the companies NDA/confidentiality she signed when she was hired by recording that and sharing it on the net.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - acdha 3y ago
      Doing that has a big chance of backfiring from a PR perspectives and I’d be surprised if a good lawyer couldn’t find an argument that the agreement did not extend to bad-faith claims or, depending on whether things like the WARN act apply, illegal acts. I would be surprised if they tried that because as soon as they sue, she’d be able to request a lot of information under discovery and the odds are pretty high that would reveal something which they’d like not to have public. Nuking a former employee with no assets is not worth the NLRB or similar getting interested.
  - eganist 3y ago
    The replies beneath you are likely wildly off base if the other end of the phone call was based in a two party consent state like California. If both ends of the call were in Virginia or another one party consent state, the recording is probably fine. But that also doesn't rule out the applicability of the cloudflare NDA. (Not a lawyer)
    - nixgeek 3y ago
      So, this one seems quite complicated, California is an "All Party" consent state. There's precedent from the California Supreme Court (Kearney v. Salomon Smith Barney Inc., 39 Cal. 4th 95; 2006) that when someone in a one-party consent state records a conversation with someone from California, the stricter condition applies, meaning they need all parties to consent. At the Federal level, it's seemingly mostly a one-party situation and so it also isn't incredibly clear that someone would find it easy to bring a case in California against an individual based in Virginia. Multi-jurisdictional crime is complicated, People v. Brown 69 Cal. App. 2d 602 was a California appelate court decision saying California can only prosecure crimes occurring in California. Perhaps you would argue the person on this call from California was a wronged party if they didn't consent, but United States v. Anderson - 328 U.S. 699 (1946) concluded “the locus delicti must be determined from the nature of the crime alleged and the location of the act or acts constituting it", which does very little to conclude California would be able to prosecute a Virginian for recording a call with a Californian, even despite the other ruling? If the participants in the conversation weren't based in California but were based in other states which still require more than one party to consent, I don't think many states other than California have settled precedent on whether the stricter condition applies. (I am also not a lawyer).
  - kingnight 3y ago
    Zoom was probably already recording on behalf of the employer
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    I've seen hundreds of comments like this. I've never heard of a single person who had a problem.
  - matrix_overload 3y ago
    BOOM! Now anyone doing due background checks on her and googling her name will find that post and flag her as a huge liability and a complete no-hire. Brilliant.
  - graton 3y ago
    I'm not sure that California's law applies as this does not appear to be a recording of a telephone call. It seems to be a recording of some sort of Team's type meeting, which I am unsure the law applies to. https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632-7/ https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632-7/
sneed_chucker 3y ago
I wonder if the US will ever get first-world tier labor laws that prevent companies from screwing people over like this. Doesn't seem likely any time soon, but it's so insane how healthcare and everything is tied to an employer and in most places they can just fire you on a whim and not offer severance or anything.
- strix_varius 3y ago
  I am absolutely for decoupling healthcare from employment (via universal care), and for mandated severance. However, there's a reason that so many - I'll pick on Germany here - German tech leaders move to the US. When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. If you're a very capable software engineer, it's better to be in the US. If you're a not-very-effective one, it's better to be in a place that will make getting rid of you much harder for the business.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    > When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. I don't follow this conclusion at all.
    - samtho 3y ago
      I don’t see what’s so difficult here. If it’s risky to hire (because terminating is difficult, takes a long time, is riddled with red tape), then employers will be slow to do so. Less competition for employers to find workers, lower pay overall. High compensation is even risky because of the burden of having to keep employees on due to labor law compliance. I personally believe it is better to have a robust unemployment insurance system in place that helps workers bridge the gap between jobs.
    - neom 3y ago
      I'd guess they're saying that if you're in an environment where making staffing changes can be legally challenging, you might opt to keep people on a tight leash at low salaries. You could in theory I guess hire someone low comp within a box, watch them, promote them quickly, and expand their latitude if they turn out to be high preformers. I don't know much about highly regulated labor markets so no clue if this exists in reality, but I suppose it's not impossible.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
m0llusk 3y ago
Sales teams are often the first and hardest hit. In theory this makes sense, but it can also completely hobble the whole company.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  I was literally in a meeting this morning where a co-worker mentioned he had reached out to Cloudflare a few days ago to ask about buying services and has not gotten a response. Certainly not a great start.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Maybe a benefit of sales layoffs will be a real pricing page! Hard to "Contact Sales" when there isn't any.
    - whstl 3y ago
      I really really really hate this. As a decision maker, I have SEVERAL times recommended or chosen specific products because the price was available vs a competitor that had a "contact sales". I'm too old for this shit.
      - evilduck 3y ago
        Contacting sales is literally subscribing to spam and being hassled by a desperate salesperson from that point onwards. I mean, that already happens with cold-contacting, but getting flagged as a MQL in a CRM makes it even worse.
skywhopper 3y ago
I hate this so much. I once worked at a place that did a layoff and caught a person who’d been a two-time intern and had just been hired out of college that same week. There’s no reason the company couldn’t have re-assigned her elsewhere. She’d already proven her value! What a waste to throw away the opportunity for a known-good new hire who could ramp up quickly, and what a horrible thing to inflict on someone just out of school. I know the execs deciding to do the layoffs don’t care about those details but at some level someone made the decision to pick this person over someone else. What monsters these corporations force us to become to each other.
- the_optimist 3y ago
  Not the corporations, the Fed. The Fed introduces high correlation, compels outsized urgency and economic volatility, and directly sets unemployment targets.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    The Fed doesn't compel, greed compels and the Fed just gives the greedy the signposts they want.
    - the_optimist 3y ago
      To the contrary, setting an employment target and maintaining high interest rates if that target is exceeded is prima facie evidence of coercion.
      - asadotzler 3y ago
        That's just silly.
        the_optimist 3y ago
        Explain why you think this. How did you think the world worked before central banking? Do you think a pack of business people grouped around a table and agreed to fire people until inflation declined?
neom 3y ago
Good for her for saying all the quiet parts out loud. Great post. I'm a big Matthew Prince fan, a big CloudFlare fan, and a shareholder. Sadly, this rubs me the wrong way...
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  Same here ( shares) , this was all mentioned last year around q1 on investor day for improving the sales department and firing underperformers: https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... section: profitability The idea, a year ago, was to replace underperformers by average performers in sales. That was the first round of layoffs that Cloudflare had and impacted ~ 100 people. The girl in the video mentioned she didn't have a single sale. It seems consistent to me, I just hope the metric is fair.
  - neom 3y ago
    Hey look... as a shareholder particularly, I have no problem with laying off underperformers in any department, especially sales asap. What rubs me the wrong way is twofold: What the folks laid off are saying about their packages. Specifically healthcare, if it's true it seems particularly cruel, give them 6 months (even if they've only been there a couple). Second, in the video the tiktok woman posted, if it's accurate 3-month ramp into year-end expecting sales for a jr sales person? Come on. That said, as you mentioned, I don't know the metric at all, and like you, I hope it's fair. :)
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      Jup. I agree with most of that, but I also don't have the details. She mentions a couple of things regarding performance: - 1,5 month, off-ramp - 3 opportunities/prospects - 0 sales Perhaps something came to light after follow up with prospects in those 3 opportunities. Or the metric is off for newer hires. Since I guess most were hired around May last year.
apimade 3y ago
Explain why eastdakota was so quiet in yesterday’s Cloudflare thread.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
grepfru_it 3y ago
Hey this is very similar to my story 2 years ago! (different company) It's only going to get worse, but protip: if you don't want to deal with the interview circuit like I did, set your salary expectations hilariously low and at least you will still collect income. Good luck to everyone in our shoes!
- bamboozled 3y ago
  When hiring, I'm suspicious of qualified people with low income expectations, I don't think this is a winning strategy personally and I'd take this advice with a grain of salt.
  - LVB 3y ago
    Suspicious of what, exactly? If someone needs work and aren’t landing the jobs, is there another approach they should be taking?
    - SantalBlush 3y ago
      Suspicious that the highly qualified person isn't going to take the crap that the employer is hoping to give out at that lower pay level.
    - stemlord 3y ago
      That they won't stick around long enough
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    In my case, every time I ask for high pay, they expect me to give them the world in an interview or to be some manager or principal / staff engineer, I just want to write code, I don't want to be stuck in meetings all day, I've been there, it's not me. Look, if you pay me enough I'll meet your standards for your company, I think a more productive interview is a culture fit interview that covers at a high level the things you care about with your team, grilling people with verifiable years of experience is an insult. Most developers learn on the job. Every job is a new learning experience. Chances are high if you don't have onboarding documentation, I'm your guy writing it because its absurd to me that any project lacks such documentation.
NicoJuicy 3y ago
This is something that was mentioned a year ago about the sales team ( at investor day ~ May 2023) A year ago, underperformers were let go. Some people had almost no sales versus other peers in sales. There was the first round of layoffs that Cloudflare had. They ( Cloudflare) expected to replace those underperformers with people that were let go of other tech companies. Since, if they could replace underperformers with average sales, profits would greatly increase. Those that were let go, were part of those new hires. Either they were underperforming ( which would be the reason to be acquired to replace in the first place) or something did not go as expected. I expect the former. Read the transcript here, in the section of "Profitability": https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... I just hope the metric is fair, but I wouldn't expect otherwise from Cloudflare. One of the videos posted here, said she didn't have a single sale and most of the new hires were done ~ 1 year ago...
Klonoar 3y ago
Discord and some other companies also appear to be doing layoffs, at this point just do a megathread. Wonder why they all announce today.
- rapfaria 3y ago
  Smaller PR hit when bundled
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    Wild how coordinated it seems.
    - hyperliner 3y ago
      [dead]
- mc32 3y ago
  They probably wanted to avoid the sharp criticism if they laid them off just before christmas... So that's all over, time for the chopping block to come out.
- oogali 3y ago
  It's the first full work week of the new year.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
declan_roberts 3y ago
[flagged]
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  because in America a job is the difference between life or very dangerous homelessness and death. if we didn't have such shit social safety nets here, it wouldn't be that personal.
  - declan_roberts 3y ago
    Us Silicon Valley engineers are some of the best compensated people in the country, maybe even the world. If she’s living hand to mouth, then the problem isn’t her compensation but something else.
    - hasty_pudding 3y ago
      If we are paid so well then why are we still working?
      - declan_roberts 3y ago
        I’d be happy to take a look at your finances and give you some tips.
        hasty_pudding 3y ago
        I would love for some tips for how to never have to work again starting today. and if you say invest in cryptocurrency, I'm blocking you
- gizmo385 3y ago
  > The company wants to try and make more money and one way is eliminating your job. Why is that so personal? God forbid we expect people to be treated with a bit of dignity and given the opportunity to actually say goodbye to their friends and colleagues. Millennials grew up being told over and over “be loyal to a company and they’ll treat you well” and have largely began their careers in an era where it’s clear companies couldn’t care less about employee loyalty once it comes anywhere close to negatively impacting their bottom line.
irjustin 3y ago
Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measures. It just seems like Feds+WallStreet vs companies actions are at odds with each other?
- whstl 3y ago
  I'm also interested in the responses to your questions, but I would ask something else: are non-tech companies also doing layoffs? I'm not in the US so I'm not really up to date to that.
  - porknubbins 3y ago
    My impression is that the tech layoffs are entirely related to Covid overhiring, VC money drying up with high interest rates, greed and wanting to get share prices up, and finally removing useless departments like Elon did with twitter. I am not seeing any similar layoffs in other industries, some may be slowing down but mine seems normal.
  - spydum 3y ago
    labor-dependent enterprises are being whispered unbelievably outrageous things from your regular biz consultants (Bain, pwc, ey, etc) about how much money that could save in labor via AI, so some may be cutting heads to fund their AI transformations? I'm not sure that's entirely it though. Many execs have been warning staff of corp austerity measures for a while to bring costs in line. It does boggle the mind though, as many of these same companies are all hitting record revenues (due to inflation).
  - tlogan 3y ago
    The layoffs are widespread. For example, Dominos just laid off 1,200 drivers. However discussions about the economy's health become particularly politicaly charged during an election year. So any conversation about the state of the economy, whether it's perceived as good or bad, inevitably carries political implications in this context. Edit: it is not Dominos it is Pizza Hut https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/pizza-hut-drivers-layoffs-18575596.php https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/pizza-hut-drivers-layoff...
system2 3y ago
How many were laid off? I can't find an article online about the layoffs. Do we only have her word or something I missed? Cloudflare stock doesn't show any movement. Usually, I see a big dip when something like this happens. I saw the video posted here and all I see is an intern getting fired. Is it something unusual? I know companies with less than 50 employees hiring and firing a bunch of people every month. For Cloudflare to fire 2 new employees, is it too much? The video from the other reply: https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/1745149758992195647 https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
NicoJuicy 3y ago
This seems to be consistent to what was mentioned last year ( May 2023 ) on investor day. https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... section: profitability The idea, a year ago, was to replace underperformers in sales by average performers, this impacted ~ 100 people early 2023. Fast forward today, this seems to impact those that were expecting to reach average sales, they probably were also underperforming ( just a educated guess). I just hope the metric is fair, but I wouldn't expect otherwise from Cloudflare. Edit: One of the videos posted here, said she didn't have a single sale and most of the new hires were done ~ 1 year ago...
- kryptiskt 3y ago
  No matter how we try, half our salespeople keep performing worse than the median. It's intolerable.
  - jerlam 3y ago
    Good old stack ranking.
aestetix 3y ago
I don't understand why Cloudflare can't just be honest and say the reason she got laid off, instead of making up some garbage about her performance. That was her main complaint, and I side with her completely. She was not asking to keep her job, or asking unreasonable questions. If they just explained that it was because the company overhired, or because they needed to reduce costs to keep the company afloat, that would have been fine. What matters here is trust. I'm glad she posted the video because it really sheds a light on awful corporate American Big Tech practices. Everyone who is considering working at Cloudflare or similar in the future will see how they treated her, and let that factor into their own decisions. And I see some sexist comments about her being "emotional." If I were in the same position, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off too. I think she has every right to be angry, and these faceless corporate drones feeding her an empty list of platitudes make it worse. Edit: my comment is in response to the Tiktok video, which isn't directly linked: https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/7322301313134415134 https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/73223013131344...
- pc86 3y ago
  What does it matter? If they say they overhired, you have people in here asking why the CEO (or the board) doesn't get fired for that decision. If they say their investors are demanding better returns (e.g. higher stock price, higher profits, wahtever that means for the particular business) you have people in here saying it's greed. There is no answer Cloudflare could give her or anyone else that would make folks go "oh, ok, I get it. Thanks!" So why even bother giving one?
  - piva00 3y ago
    > So why even bother giving one? Decency? Honesty?
    - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
      Knowning when to apply honesty is also important. If you tell an ex you left them because they are (fat?), is it honest or is it cruel ?
nlh 3y ago
Sorry, I am likely missing some context here -- I didn't watch the video that's apparently floating around I'm just reacting to this imgur/LinkedIn post. This sounds like a salesperson was let go (or several salespeople). I don't see anything about a layoff. THE deal in lower-level sales (and an AE is lower-level sales) is that the jobs are fleeting and ruthlessly performance-based. People are hired and fired all the time. Sometimes you're let go before you've even made it out of training. Sometimes you're let go if you miss a single week's quotas. It can be quite vicious. I am not in sales, am not good at it, nor do I ever want to be in that world, but everyone's I've spoken to who is says they know this is how it works and this is the deal, and therefore there aren't (or shouldn't be) hard feelings if you're cut from the team. Please correct me if I've missed something!
roynasser 3y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway0665 3y ago
  entitled brat because she feels she deserves answers for being fired without warning or performance management? or entitled brat because she's a woman?
  - stemlord 3y ago
    It's likely more ageism than sexism
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  It seems to me like she's having new-to-the-professional-workforce growing pains. I.e., she's still learning what's normal regarding employment relationships, job safety, etc.
neilv 3y ago
Looked like the man on the video that aestetix linked [1], of the termination call, was a director. I hope he was one of the people who decided on the layoffs, or decided who would be laid off. IMHO, the person's manager should've also been on the call, even if it was 100% out of their hands. (Unless the immediate manager was laid off at the same time.) A manager is responsible for the people reporting to them, and this is a failure. [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/7322301313134415134 https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/73223013131344...
neilv 3y ago
This HN post is already buried off the front page (199 points, 2 hours, 163 comments).
no_time 3y ago
>(…) if you want to build. better internet and world, start with your employees and treat them with respect Ironic coming from someone who works for a 3 letter front company operating the largest (known) MiTM attack in the history of the internet. A better internet and world would come about if CF ceased all operations.
PeterCorless 3y ago
A video from someone laid off today; seems to be a repost from TikTok user @alexyardigans: https://x.com/SMB_Attorney/status/1745609324544536778?s=20 https://x.com/SMB_Attorney/status/1745609324544536778?s=20
satisfice 3y ago
Don’t make these videos, folks. You are just going to make the next employer afraid to hire you. There is no upside. Employers don’t owe you any explanations. Just walk away. If you have a legal argument, hire a lawyer and do it right. Arguing with the people tasked with telling you this news is like yelling at a wall that is falling on you. It’s useless and pathetic. Meanwhile, I think the HR people did pretty well.

305 points by KyleSanderson 3y ago

Plenty of these on LI today unfortunately. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsales-channelsales-activity-7151300656689987584-86oZ/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsale... https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/1745149758992195647 https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...

NicoJuicy 3y ago
1 is the same as posted there fyi
- KyleSanderson 3y ago
  Check the comments - lots of others.
neom 3y ago
Yikes on that second link, I seriously hope she told them she was recording the call or she may run into some two-party consent issues.
- nekoeth0 3y ago
  38 states (and DC) require one-party consent, so, depends.
- nixgeek 3y ago
  She's in Virginia (according to LinkedIn), which is a one-party consent state.
- lgleason 3y ago
  Her Linkedin says she's in Atlanta. Either way, I doubt she will get severance after that and if Cloudflare wants to make a point they could try to go after her for a violation of the companies NDA/confidentiality she signed when she was hired by recording that and sharing it on the net.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - acdha 3y ago
    Doing that has a big chance of backfiring from a PR perspectives and I’d be surprised if a good lawyer couldn’t find an argument that the agreement did not extend to bad-faith claims or, depending on whether things like the WARN act apply, illegal acts. I would be surprised if they tried that because as soon as they sue, she’d be able to request a lot of information under discovery and the odds are pretty high that would reveal something which they’d like not to have public. Nuking a former employee with no assets is not worth the NLRB or similar getting interested.
- eganist 3y ago
  The replies beneath you are likely wildly off base if the other end of the phone call was based in a two party consent state like California. If both ends of the call were in Virginia or another one party consent state, the recording is probably fine. But that also doesn't rule out the applicability of the cloudflare NDA. (Not a lawyer)
  - nixgeek 3y ago
    So, this one seems quite complicated, California is an "All Party" consent state. There's precedent from the California Supreme Court (Kearney v. Salomon Smith Barney Inc., 39 Cal. 4th 95; 2006) that when someone in a one-party consent state records a conversation with someone from California, the stricter condition applies, meaning they need all parties to consent. At the Federal level, it's seemingly mostly a one-party situation and so it also isn't incredibly clear that someone would find it easy to bring a case in California against an individual based in Virginia. Multi-jurisdictional crime is complicated, People v. Brown 69 Cal. App. 2d 602 was a California appelate court decision saying California can only prosecure crimes occurring in California. Perhaps you would argue the person on this call from California was a wronged party if they didn't consent, but United States v. Anderson - 328 U.S. 699 (1946) concluded “the locus delicti must be determined from the nature of the crime alleged and the location of the act or acts constituting it", which does very little to conclude California would be able to prosecute a Virginian for recording a call with a Californian, even despite the other ruling? If the participants in the conversation weren't based in California but were based in other states which still require more than one party to consent, I don't think many states other than California have settled precedent on whether the stricter condition applies. (I am also not a lawyer).
- kingnight 3y ago
  Zoom was probably already recording on behalf of the employer
- willcipriano 3y ago
  I've seen hundreds of comments like this. I've never heard of a single person who had a problem.
- matrix_overload 3y ago
  BOOM! Now anyone doing due background checks on her and googling her name will find that post and flag her as a huge liability and a complete no-hire. Brilliant.
- graton 3y ago
  I'm not sure that California's law applies as this does not appear to be a recording of a telephone call. It seems to be a recording of some sort of Team's type meeting, which I am unsure the law applies to. https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632-7/ https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632-7/

sneed_chucker 3y ago

I wonder if the US will ever get first-world tier labor laws that prevent companies from screwing people over like this. Doesn't seem likely any time soon, but it's so insane how healthcare and everything is tied to an employer and in most places they can just fire you on a whim and not offer severance or anything.

strix_varius 3y ago
I am absolutely for decoupling healthcare from employment (via universal care), and for mandated severance. However, there's a reason that so many - I'll pick on Germany here - German tech leaders move to the US. When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. If you're a very capable software engineer, it's better to be in the US. If you're a not-very-effective one, it's better to be in a place that will make getting rid of you much harder for the business.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  > When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. I don't follow this conclusion at all.
  - samtho 3y ago
    I don’t see what’s so difficult here. If it’s risky to hire (because terminating is difficult, takes a long time, is riddled with red tape), then employers will be slow to do so. Less competition for employers to find workers, lower pay overall. High compensation is even risky because of the burden of having to keep employees on due to labor law compliance. I personally believe it is better to have a robust unemployment insurance system in place that helps workers bridge the gap between jobs.
  - neom 3y ago
    I'd guess they're saying that if you're in an environment where making staffing changes can be legally challenging, you might opt to keep people on a tight leash at low salaries. You could in theory I guess hire someone low comp within a box, watch them, promote them quickly, and expand their latitude if they turn out to be high preformers. I don't know much about highly regulated labor markets so no clue if this exists in reality, but I suppose it's not impossible.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

m0llusk 3y ago

Sales teams are often the first and hardest hit. In theory this makes sense, but it can also completely hobble the whole company.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hotpotamus 3y ago
I was literally in a meeting this morning where a co-worker mentioned he had reached out to Cloudflare a few days ago to ask about buying services and has not gotten a response. Certainly not a great start.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Maybe a benefit of sales layoffs will be a real pricing page! Hard to "Contact Sales" when there isn't any.
  - whstl 3y ago
    I really really really hate this. As a decision maker, I have SEVERAL times recommended or chosen specific products because the price was available vs a competitor that had a "contact sales". I'm too old for this shit.
    - evilduck 3y ago
      Contacting sales is literally subscribing to spam and being hassled by a desperate salesperson from that point onwards. I mean, that already happens with cold-contacting, but getting flagged as a MQL in a CRM makes it even worse.

skywhopper 3y ago

I hate this so much. I once worked at a place that did a layoff and caught a person who’d been a two-time intern and had just been hired out of college that same week. There’s no reason the company couldn’t have re-assigned her elsewhere. She’d already proven her value! What a waste to throw away the opportunity for a known-good new hire who could ramp up quickly, and what a horrible thing to inflict on someone just out of school. I know the execs deciding to do the layoffs don’t care about those details but at some level someone made the decision to pick this person over someone else. What monsters these corporations force us to become to each other.

the_optimist 3y ago
Not the corporations, the Fed. The Fed introduces high correlation, compels outsized urgency and economic volatility, and directly sets unemployment targets.
- asadotzler 3y ago
  The Fed doesn't compel, greed compels and the Fed just gives the greedy the signposts they want.
  - the_optimist 3y ago
    To the contrary, setting an employment target and maintaining high interest rates if that target is exceeded is prima facie evidence of coercion.
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      That's just silly.
      - the_optimist 3y ago
        Explain why you think this. How did you think the world worked before central banking? Do you think a pack of business people grouped around a table and agreed to fire people until inflation declined?

neom 3y ago

Good for her for saying all the quiet parts out loud. Great post. I'm a big Matthew Prince fan, a big CloudFlare fan, and a shareholder. Sadly, this rubs me the wrong way...

NicoJuicy 3y ago
Same here ( shares) , this was all mentioned last year around q1 on investor day for improving the sales department and firing underperformers: https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... section: profitability The idea, a year ago, was to replace underperformers by average performers in sales. That was the first round of layoffs that Cloudflare had and impacted ~ 100 people. The girl in the video mentioned she didn't have a single sale. It seems consistent to me, I just hope the metric is fair.
- neom 3y ago
  Hey look... as a shareholder particularly, I have no problem with laying off underperformers in any department, especially sales asap. What rubs me the wrong way is twofold: What the folks laid off are saying about their packages. Specifically healthcare, if it's true it seems particularly cruel, give them 6 months (even if they've only been there a couple). Second, in the video the tiktok woman posted, if it's accurate 3-month ramp into year-end expecting sales for a jr sales person? Come on. That said, as you mentioned, I don't know the metric at all, and like you, I hope it's fair. :)
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Jup. I agree with most of that, but I also don't have the details. She mentions a couple of things regarding performance: - 1,5 month, off-ramp - 3 opportunities/prospects - 0 sales Perhaps something came to light after follow up with prospects in those 3 opportunities. Or the metric is off for newer hires. Since I guess most were hired around May last year.

apimade 3y ago

Explain why eastdakota was so quiet in yesterday’s Cloudflare thread.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

grepfru_it 3y ago

Hey this is very similar to my story 2 years ago! (different company) It's only going to get worse, but protip: if you don't want to deal with the interview circuit like I did, set your salary expectations hilariously low and at least you will still collect income. Good luck to everyone in our shoes!

bamboozled 3y ago
When hiring, I'm suspicious of qualified people with low income expectations, I don't think this is a winning strategy personally and I'd take this advice with a grain of salt.
- LVB 3y ago
  Suspicious of what, exactly? If someone needs work and aren’t landing the jobs, is there another approach they should be taking?
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    Suspicious that the highly qualified person isn't going to take the crap that the employer is hoping to give out at that lower pay level.
  - stemlord 3y ago
    That they won't stick around long enough
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  In my case, every time I ask for high pay, they expect me to give them the world in an interview or to be some manager or principal / staff engineer, I just want to write code, I don't want to be stuck in meetings all day, I've been there, it's not me. Look, if you pay me enough I'll meet your standards for your company, I think a more productive interview is a culture fit interview that covers at a high level the things you care about with your team, grilling people with verifiable years of experience is an insult. Most developers learn on the job. Every job is a new learning experience. Chances are high if you don't have onboarding documentation, I'm your guy writing it because its absurd to me that any project lacks such documentation.

NicoJuicy 3y ago

This is something that was mentioned a year ago about the sales team ( at investor day ~ May 2023) A year ago, underperformers were let go. Some people had almost no sales versus other peers in sales. There was the first round of layoffs that Cloudflare had. They ( Cloudflare) expected to replace those underperformers with people that were let go of other tech companies. Since, if they could replace underperformers with average sales, profits would greatly increase. Those that were let go, were part of those new hires. Either they were underperforming ( which would be the reason to be acquired to replace in the first place) or something did not go as expected. I expect the former. Read the transcript here, in the section of "Profitability": https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... I just hope the metric is fair, but I wouldn't expect otherwise from Cloudflare. One of the videos posted here, said she didn't have a single sale and most of the new hires were done ~ 1 year ago...

Klonoar 3y ago

Discord and some other companies also appear to be doing layoffs, at this point just do a megathread. Wonder why they all announce today.

rapfaria 3y ago
Smaller PR hit when bundled
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Wild how coordinated it seems.
  - hyperliner 3y ago
    [dead]
mc32 3y ago
They probably wanted to avoid the sharp criticism if they laid them off just before christmas... So that's all over, time for the chopping block to come out.
oogali 3y ago
It's the first full work week of the new year.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

declan_roberts 3y ago

[flagged]

hasty_pudding 3y ago
because in America a job is the difference between life or very dangerous homelessness and death. if we didn't have such shit social safety nets here, it wouldn't be that personal.
- declan_roberts 3y ago
  Us Silicon Valley engineers are some of the best compensated people in the country, maybe even the world. If she’s living hand to mouth, then the problem isn’t her compensation but something else.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    If we are paid so well then why are we still working?
    - declan_roberts 3y ago
      I’d be happy to take a look at your finances and give you some tips.
      - hasty_pudding 3y ago
        I would love for some tips for how to never have to work again starting today. and if you say invest in cryptocurrency, I'm blocking you
gizmo385 3y ago
> The company wants to try and make more money and one way is eliminating your job. Why is that so personal? God forbid we expect people to be treated with a bit of dignity and given the opportunity to actually say goodbye to their friends and colleagues. Millennials grew up being told over and over “be loyal to a company and they’ll treat you well” and have largely began their careers in an era where it’s clear companies couldn’t care less about employee loyalty once it comes anywhere close to negatively impacting their bottom line.

irjustin 3y ago

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measures. It just seems like Feds+WallStreet vs companies actions are at odds with each other?

whstl 3y ago
I'm also interested in the responses to your questions, but I would ask something else: are non-tech companies also doing layoffs? I'm not in the US so I'm not really up to date to that.
- porknubbins 3y ago
  My impression is that the tech layoffs are entirely related to Covid overhiring, VC money drying up with high interest rates, greed and wanting to get share prices up, and finally removing useless departments like Elon did with twitter. I am not seeing any similar layoffs in other industries, some may be slowing down but mine seems normal.
- spydum 3y ago
  labor-dependent enterprises are being whispered unbelievably outrageous things from your regular biz consultants (Bain, pwc, ey, etc) about how much money that could save in labor via AI, so some may be cutting heads to fund their AI transformations? I'm not sure that's entirely it though. Many execs have been warning staff of corp austerity measures for a while to bring costs in line. It does boggle the mind though, as many of these same companies are all hitting record revenues (due to inflation).
- tlogan 3y ago
  The layoffs are widespread. For example, Dominos just laid off 1,200 drivers. However discussions about the economy's health become particularly politicaly charged during an election year. So any conversation about the state of the economy, whether it's perceived as good or bad, inevitably carries political implications in this context. Edit: it is not Dominos it is Pizza Hut https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/pizza-hut-drivers-layoffs-18575596.php https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/pizza-hut-drivers-layoff...

system2 3y ago

How many were laid off? I can't find an article online about the layoffs. Do we only have her word or something I missed? Cloudflare stock doesn't show any movement. Usually, I see a big dip when something like this happens. I saw the video posted here and all I see is an intern getting fired. Is it something unusual? I know companies with less than 50 employees hiring and firing a bunch of people every month. For Cloudflare to fire 2 new employees, is it too much? The video from the other reply: https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/1745149758992195647 https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

NicoJuicy 3y ago

This seems to be consistent to what was mentioned last year ( May 2023 ) on investor day. https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... section: profitability The idea, a year ago, was to replace underperformers in sales by average performers, this impacted ~ 100 people early 2023. Fast forward today, this seems to impact those that were expecting to reach average sales, they probably were also underperforming ( just a educated guess). I just hope the metric is fair, but I wouldn't expect otherwise from Cloudflare. Edit: One of the videos posted here, said she didn't have a single sale and most of the new hires were done ~ 1 year ago...

kryptiskt 3y ago
No matter how we try, half our salespeople keep performing worse than the median. It's intolerable.
- jerlam 3y ago
  Good old stack ranking.

aestetix 3y ago

I don't understand why Cloudflare can't just be honest and say the reason she got laid off, instead of making up some garbage about her performance. That was her main complaint, and I side with her completely. She was not asking to keep her job, or asking unreasonable questions. If they just explained that it was because the company overhired, or because they needed to reduce costs to keep the company afloat, that would have been fine. What matters here is trust. I'm glad she posted the video because it really sheds a light on awful corporate American Big Tech practices. Everyone who is considering working at Cloudflare or similar in the future will see how they treated her, and let that factor into their own decisions. And I see some sexist comments about her being "emotional." If I were in the same position, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off too. I think she has every right to be angry, and these faceless corporate drones feeding her an empty list of platitudes make it worse. Edit: my comment is in response to the Tiktok video, which isn't directly linked: https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/7322301313134415134 https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/73223013131344...

pc86 3y ago
What does it matter? If they say they overhired, you have people in here asking why the CEO (or the board) doesn't get fired for that decision. If they say their investors are demanding better returns (e.g. higher stock price, higher profits, wahtever that means for the particular business) you have people in here saying it's greed. There is no answer Cloudflare could give her or anyone else that would make folks go "oh, ok, I get it. Thanks!" So why even bother giving one?
- piva00 3y ago
  > So why even bother giving one? Decency? Honesty?
  - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
    Knowning when to apply honesty is also important. If you tell an ex you left them because they are (fat?), is it honest or is it cruel ?

nlh 3y ago

Sorry, I am likely missing some context here -- I didn't watch the video that's apparently floating around I'm just reacting to this imgur/LinkedIn post. This sounds like a salesperson was let go (or several salespeople). I don't see anything about a layoff. THE deal in lower-level sales (and an AE is lower-level sales) is that the jobs are fleeting and ruthlessly performance-based. People are hired and fired all the time. Sometimes you're let go before you've even made it out of training. Sometimes you're let go if you miss a single week's quotas. It can be quite vicious. I am not in sales, am not good at it, nor do I ever want to be in that world, but everyone's I've spoken to who is says they know this is how it works and this is the deal, and therefore there aren't (or shouldn't be) hard feelings if you're cut from the team. Please correct me if I've missed something!

roynasser 3y ago

[flagged]

throwaway0665 3y ago
entitled brat because she feels she deserves answers for being fired without warning or performance management? or entitled brat because she's a woman?
- stemlord 3y ago
  It's likely more ageism than sexism
CoastalCoder 3y ago
It seems to me like she's having new-to-the-professional-workforce growing pains. I.e., she's still learning what's normal regarding employment relationships, job safety, etc.

neilv 3y ago

Looked like the man on the video that aestetix linked [1], of the termination call, was a director. I hope he was one of the people who decided on the layoffs, or decided who would be laid off. IMHO, the person's manager should've also been on the call, even if it was 100% out of their hands. (Unless the immediate manager was laid off at the same time.) A manager is responsible for the people reporting to them, and this is a failure. [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/7322301313134415134 https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/73223013131344...

neilv 3y ago

This HN post is already buried off the front page (199 points, 2 hours, 163 comments).

no_time 3y ago

>(…) if you want to build. better internet and world, start with your employees and treat them with respect Ironic coming from someone who works for a 3 letter front company operating the largest (known) MiTM attack in the history of the internet. A better internet and world would come about if CF ceased all operations.

PeterCorless 3y ago

A video from someone laid off today; seems to be a repost from TikTok user @alexyardigans: https://x.com/SMB_Attorney/status/1745609324544536778?s=20 https://x.com/SMB_Attorney/status/1745609324544536778?s=20

satisfice 3y ago

Don’t make these videos, folks. You are just going to make the next employer afraid to hire you. There is no upside. Employers don’t owe you any explanations. Just walk away. If you have a legal argument, hire a lawyer and do it right. Arguing with the people tasked with telling you this news is like yelling at a wall that is falling on you. It’s useless and pathetic. Meanwhile, I think the HR people did pretty well.