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Between Discord, Twitch, Amazon+Prime, and Google... what's the layoff pattern here? Are we talking about social community teams? Streaming/networking engineers

Between Discord, Twitch, Amazon+Prime, and Google... what's the layoff pattern here? Are we talking about social community teams? Streaming/networking engineers? Or is there no connective thread between these four companies? Are there other corporate layoffs that round out this intrigue?

vkou 3y ago
The connective thread is that tech growth has slowed/stopped and Wall Street is looking to make cuts, because salaries are expensive, and shit, if they have the option between more expenses and less expenses, they will keep taking 'less expenses', until it clearly and incontroversially affects the bottom line.
- Solvency 3y ago
  Right but where are Atlassian's layoffs, Asana, or any of the other hundreds of "lower" tier tech companies? It's unusual that they're all skating by, to me.
  - willsmith72 3y ago
    Atlassian had layoffs just last year.
  - ttmb 3y ago
    The bigger companies used their cash during the pandemic to go on a hiring spree, both bloating their headcount and their overall salaries. The smaller/lower tier companies did not have the cash to compete with this, and now do not have as much to fix. Also the layoffs in smaller companies just aren't big news.
  - vkou 3y ago
    There's micro-scale reasons for why particular firms aren't affected by this, but that gets into the weeds of particular companies' roadmaps and balance sheets. The macro-scale of 2010-2020 was 'growth, growth, growth', the macro-scale of 2020-2022 was 'hire, hire, hire', and the macro-scale of 2023 and 2024 is 'freezes, layoffs, cuts'.
  - karmasimida 3y ago
    Just google it, Atlassian, Asana all did layoffs in late 22/23
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >Today marks a very hard day in our 20-year history. We have made the difficult decision to rebalance our team to better position Atlassian for the long term, meaning we will be saying goodbye to around 500 Atlassians, or 5% of our employees. https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/atlassian-team-update-march-2023 https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/atlassian-team-...
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  It's an "and me too" business fad despite profits being already at record levels. The entire point is to suppress tech worker wages if not by explicitly-agreed conspiracy then by independently-stochastic layoffs.[0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... Edit: One way out for both stability and fair compensation is worker-owned co-ops. Unionizing within publicly-traded or private-equity-owned corporations is still building a sandcastle in the tidal zone.
  - hajile 3y ago
    It's more about inflation. The Fed has stated that they don't get those low interest rates back until they fire a lot of people and drive up unemployment. EDIT: from the Chair himself > We’re never going to say that there are too many people working, but the real point is this: Inflation—what we hear from people when we meet with them is that they really are suffering from inflation. And if we want to set ourselves up, really light the way to another period of a very strong labor market, we have got to get inflation behind us. I wish there were a painless way to do that. There isn’t. So, what we need to do is get rates up to the point where we’re putting meaningful downward pressure on inflation, and that’s what we’re doing. https://www.federalreserve.gov/mediacenter/files/FOMCpresconf20220921.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/mediacenter/files/FOMCprescon... This is hardly just his opinion either and has been pretty widely covered across the media. https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-... https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/perspectives/inflation-jobs-recession-rubenstein/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/perspectives/inflation-jobs-r... https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/10/12/does-the-fed-want-you-to-lose-your-job-its-complicated/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/10/12/does-the-f... https://www.businessinsider.com/jerome-powell-fed-jobs-unemployment-nonfarm-payrolls-inflation-markets-economy-2023-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/jerome-powell-fed-jobs-unemp...
ianceicys 3y ago
Salesforce just announced a hiring freeze and word on the street is that in the next 30 days they are going to be cutting staff.
- stephencoyner 3y ago
  Where have you heard about the layoff rumors?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- prettyStandard 3y ago
  Word on the street is Angie's List is quietly firing. They already let go of their contractors and now they're looking at their employees.
Nezteb 3y ago
The only suggestion I've seen that would make some sense is Section 174: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-pulse-75 https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-pulse-75
- magicloop 3y ago
  Very insightful - I didn't know about Section 174. I feel sorry for the overseas labour that a US company startup would be now considering stopping for tax reasons. But I suppose they needed that 15 year amortisation clause (compared to 5 years for a US employee) to stop a flight-to-overseas labour effect of Section 174 (which is presumably 1/3 cheaper). The framing I see it as is by comparison with the Gold Rush. In those times some made it big (finding Gold) but most of the (reliable) money was made by selling pick-axes. Here the US is moving from a model where the successful startups cash out resulting in everyone getting paid: e.g. 40% California tax income comes from exits, to being one where the US government takes smaller cuts from medium to failing startups (due to gaining tax revenue of those companies making revenue in their first few years). The drawback is that fewer startups incubate long enough to have a chance of cashing out big. Note also paying tax as an employee has a better fiscal multiplier to the economy than the owners paying a tax bill. (You buy products and services with your salary more so than wealthy owners on a proportionate basis.) I find this all quite surprising for the US government, and US innovation culture.
ramesh31 3y ago
R&D mostly getting the axe. Growth's off the table this year. Outside the AI bubble, companies are soley focused on paying down debt and remaining profitable.
m_a_g 3y ago
My guess is that these were supposed to happen in late 2023 but didn't due to the holiday season. So now almost three months of layoffs are happening back to back. This might be wishful thinking, but looking at their size, these are fairly normal layoffs, and the worst part is over. (Remember 25% Meta and Google layoffs )
forward1 3y ago
Intrigue? The economy is teetering on recession. These companies understand macro trends better than anyone, and can plainly see what is coming. Now the play is to protect the war chests they have amassed to weather the storm.
- riffraff 3y ago
  If the companies understood macro trends they would not have hired just to fire everyone later when their growth plans didn't correspond to reality.
  - forward1 3y ago
    Turns out macro trends change based on circumstances outside the control of any one company.
    - riffraff 3y ago
      Which is the point: large companies do not have more control over that than me and you, nor do they interpret them better, which is the same reason hedge funds generally trail index funds.
      - forward1 3y ago
        Hedge funds trail index funds? What a hilariously and confidently incorrect take. I guess that's why hedge fund managers have billions in assets and are paid millions of dollars, to deliver sub-market returns. Yep, makes total sense.
10xDev 3y ago
Not saying this is the reason at all, but personally speaking sell me something that is not a subscription based service. I will make a handful of exceptions but not more. All these companies relying on Nitro, Prime, Premium, Plus as if anyone wants to add yet another subscription to their bill. Meanwhile companies like Apple and Nvidia are releasing new high-end products that I can buy and not think about.
- riffraff 3y ago
  Apple sells six or seven different subscription services including tv, music, photo storage, and fitness. They obviously don't think that selling subscriptions is a bad idea.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 10xDev 3y ago
    "Not saying this is the reason at all" But also, Apple is not relying on Fitness+ to survive unlike Discord with Nitro.
guyzero 3y ago
The layoff pattern is rising interest rates.
teen 3y ago
People who make too much money for their role, or entire divisions that are wildly unprofitable

vkou 3y ago

The connective thread is that tech growth has slowed/stopped and Wall Street is looking to make cuts, because salaries are expensive, and shit, if they have the option between more expenses and less expenses, they will keep taking 'less expenses', until it clearly and incontroversially affects the bottom line.

Solvency 3y ago
Right but where are Atlassian's layoffs, Asana, or any of the other hundreds of "lower" tier tech companies? It's unusual that they're all skating by, to me.
- willsmith72 3y ago
  Atlassian had layoffs just last year.
- ttmb 3y ago
  The bigger companies used their cash during the pandemic to go on a hiring spree, both bloating their headcount and their overall salaries. The smaller/lower tier companies did not have the cash to compete with this, and now do not have as much to fix. Also the layoffs in smaller companies just aren't big news.
- vkou 3y ago
  There's micro-scale reasons for why particular firms aren't affected by this, but that gets into the weeds of particular companies' roadmaps and balance sheets. The macro-scale of 2010-2020 was 'growth, growth, growth', the macro-scale of 2020-2022 was 'hire, hire, hire', and the macro-scale of 2023 and 2024 is 'freezes, layoffs, cuts'.
- karmasimida 3y ago
  Just google it, Atlassian, Asana all did layoffs in late 22/23
- Clubber 3y ago
  >Today marks a very hard day in our 20-year history. We have made the difficult decision to rebalance our team to better position Atlassian for the long term, meaning we will be saying goodbye to around 500 Atlassians, or 5% of our employees. https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/atlassian-team-update-march-2023 https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/atlassian-team-...
mynameisnoone 3y ago
It's an "and me too" business fad despite profits being already at record levels. The entire point is to suppress tech worker wages if not by explicitly-agreed conspiracy then by independently-stochastic layoffs.[0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... Edit: One way out for both stability and fair compensation is worker-owned co-ops. Unionizing within publicly-traded or private-equity-owned corporations is still building a sandcastle in the tidal zone.
- hajile 3y ago
  It's more about inflation. The Fed has stated that they don't get those low interest rates back until they fire a lot of people and drive up unemployment. EDIT: from the Chair himself > We’re never going to say that there are too many people working, but the real point is this: Inflation—what we hear from people when we meet with them is that they really are suffering from inflation. And if we want to set ourselves up, really light the way to another period of a very strong labor market, we have got to get inflation behind us. I wish there were a painless way to do that. There isn’t. So, what we need to do is get rates up to the point where we’re putting meaningful downward pressure on inflation, and that’s what we’re doing. https://www.federalreserve.gov/mediacenter/files/FOMCpresconf20220921.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/mediacenter/files/FOMCprescon... This is hardly just his opinion either and has been pretty widely covered across the media. https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-... https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/perspectives/inflation-jobs-recession-rubenstein/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/perspectives/inflation-jobs-r... https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/10/12/does-the-fed-want-you-to-lose-your-job-its-complicated/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/10/12/does-the-f... https://www.businessinsider.com/jerome-powell-fed-jobs-unemployment-nonfarm-payrolls-inflation-markets-economy-2023-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/jerome-powell-fed-jobs-unemp...

ianceicys 3y ago

Salesforce just announced a hiring freeze and word on the street is that in the next 30 days they are going to be cutting staff.

stephencoyner 3y ago
Where have you heard about the layoff rumors?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
prettyStandard 3y ago
Word on the street is Angie's List is quietly firing. They already let go of their contractors and now they're looking at their employees.

Nezteb 3y ago

The only suggestion I've seen that would make some sense is Section 174: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-pulse-75 https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-pulse-75

magicloop 3y ago
Very insightful - I didn't know about Section 174. I feel sorry for the overseas labour that a US company startup would be now considering stopping for tax reasons. But I suppose they needed that 15 year amortisation clause (compared to 5 years for a US employee) to stop a flight-to-overseas labour effect of Section 174 (which is presumably 1/3 cheaper). The framing I see it as is by comparison with the Gold Rush. In those times some made it big (finding Gold) but most of the (reliable) money was made by selling pick-axes. Here the US is moving from a model where the successful startups cash out resulting in everyone getting paid: e.g. 40% California tax income comes from exits, to being one where the US government takes smaller cuts from medium to failing startups (due to gaining tax revenue of those companies making revenue in their first few years). The drawback is that fewer startups incubate long enough to have a chance of cashing out big. Note also paying tax as an employee has a better fiscal multiplier to the economy than the owners paying a tax bill. (You buy products and services with your salary more so than wealthy owners on a proportionate basis.) I find this all quite surprising for the US government, and US innovation culture.

ramesh31 3y ago

R&D mostly getting the axe. Growth's off the table this year. Outside the AI bubble, companies are soley focused on paying down debt and remaining profitable.

m_a_g 3y ago

My guess is that these were supposed to happen in late 2023 but didn't due to the holiday season. So now almost three months of layoffs are happening back to back. This might be wishful thinking, but looking at their size, these are fairly normal layoffs, and the worst part is over. (Remember 25% Meta and Google layoffs )

forward1 3y ago

Intrigue? The economy is teetering on recession. These companies understand macro trends better than anyone, and can plainly see what is coming. Now the play is to protect the war chests they have amassed to weather the storm.

riffraff 3y ago
If the companies understood macro trends they would not have hired just to fire everyone later when their growth plans didn't correspond to reality.
- forward1 3y ago
  Turns out macro trends change based on circumstances outside the control of any one company.
  - riffraff 3y ago
    Which is the point: large companies do not have more control over that than me and you, nor do they interpret them better, which is the same reason hedge funds generally trail index funds.
    - forward1 3y ago
      Hedge funds trail index funds? What a hilariously and confidently incorrect take. I guess that's why hedge fund managers have billions in assets and are paid millions of dollars, to deliver sub-market returns. Yep, makes total sense.

10xDev 3y ago

Not saying this is the reason at all, but personally speaking sell me something that is not a subscription based service. I will make a handful of exceptions but not more. All these companies relying on Nitro, Prime, Premium, Plus as if anyone wants to add yet another subscription to their bill. Meanwhile companies like Apple and Nvidia are releasing new high-end products that I can buy and not think about.

riffraff 3y ago
Apple sells six or seven different subscription services including tv, music, photo storage, and fitness. They obviously don't think that selling subscriptions is a bad idea.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 10xDev 3y ago
  "Not saying this is the reason at all" But also, Apple is not relying on Fitness+ to survive unlike Discord with Nitro.

guyzero 3y ago

The layoff pattern is rising interest rates.

teen 3y ago

People who make too much money for their role, or entire divisions that are wildly unprofitable