7 ms·

These aren't Zen 5 CPUs, they're Zen 4 chips with better integrated graphics (which gamers likely won't care about anyway) and some AI accelerators (which proba

These aren't Zen 5 CPUs, they're Zen 4 chips with better integrated graphics (which gamers likely won't care about anyway) and some AI accelerators (which probably won't see wide adoption for at least another year)

kkzz99 3y ago
Do these AI accelerators even support common implementations for LLM inference or stable diffusion models? Last time I checked, AMD's support was terrible.
- diggan 3y ago
  I'm guessing no, as these newly announced processors are the first with those accelerators. > AMD is also bringing the power of a dedicated AI neural processing unit (NPU) to desktop PC processors for the first time with the introduction of Ryzen™ AI
  - wtallis 3y ago
    They're merely the first desktop processors from AMD with these NPUs. This is last year's laptop silicon repackaged for their desktop socket. They also re-branded the laptop version with new model numbers, because laptop OEMs basically demand new model numbers on an annual cadence. This year their marketing for these chips is heavily emphasizing the NPUs, because they actually have some tooling for them now, but they were basically dead weight when the silicon first shipped.
- zamalek 3y ago
  AMD's support is terrible, if you believe their documentation. ROCm/hip works just fine (well, with Torch - Tensorflow is shamelessly an NVIDIA shill) on many "unsupported" GPUs if you enable an override envar.
  - NekkoDroid 3y ago
    To add a bit more context: I remember reading somewhere (may have been in the Phoronix forum) from an official AMD engeneer that "supported" means validated and actively tested in their pipeline, while "unsupported" generally just means "we don't do any or minimal testing on these, they should work and we don't explicitly prevent them from working but we don't guarantee anything" (at least when it comes to same die/gen cards). In the same post they also wrote that they are gonna look at integrating more of those "unsupported" cards into their suite. Honestly, I hope they change their wording for this to something like "validated", "supported" and "unsupported" with actual explenations what each of these mean (fully tested, works theoretically, does not work even theoretically) Edit: I actually found the post I was talking about https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-amd-linux/1428866-amd-rocm-6-0-now-available-to-download-with-mi300-support-pytorch-fp8-more-ai#post1428924 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d...
    - makomk 3y ago
      ROCm is also incredibly fragile and buggy at the best of times, so anything not actively tested by them stands a good chance of not working. Hell, I remember that a while back people were having problems with machine learning code giving garbage results on one of the few consumer GPUs that was officially listed as supported and AMD eventually replying to the bug report and declaring that actually, no they weren't going to support it and they'd remove it from the list ratther than try and fix the issue. I think this was back when newer consumer GPUs were genuinely unsupported as in the code simply wasn't there too. Integrated GPUs have also alwayu had a lot of problems. There's also questionable OS compatiblity. ROCm is Linux-based and has extremely limited and rather experimental Windows support. Their fancy new neural processing unit is Windows-only, tied in with a Microsoft framework, and they don't seem to have any kind of definite plan for supporting it elsewhere. So there's quite possibly no single OS where all the hardware that theoretically could be used for machine learning and AI in these chips actually has even vaguely functioning code that works on that OS to make it work that way.
      - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
- caycep 3y ago
  as long as PyTorch supports it, does it matter?
  - antx 3y ago
    for as long as I'll need to recompile PyTorch for it to adequately support my card, yes, it matters.
    - weebull 3y ago
      The problem there is with PyTorch. They've got bugs in their AMD build flow that people keep pointing out to them, but because it's people with consumer cards which are "unsupported" (which just means AMD won't personally solve your problems with those cards, not that they aren't intended to work) they close the issues / PRs without fixing the bug. AMDs wording isn't helping either of course.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
Extreme integrated GPUs? Marketing department going wild
- _cenw 3y ago
  They are enough to run the Ally, and they're closely related to the one in the Steam Deck. So maybe they're extreme in the segment of integrated graphics??
- bonton89 3y ago
  They're just trying to compete with Intel Extreme Graphics from 2002. Must be they're reaching performance parity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_process...
  - seabrookmx 3y ago
    Parity? AMD integrated GPU's have outperformed Intel's for many years.
    - dathinab 3y ago
      only APU like the 5700G, 8700G or the recent Steam Deck APU (in reasonable comparison targets) The integrated GPUs of the 7000 serious (not APUs) are maximal minimalist to a point I think they couldn't have shrunken them more without running into unusual issues (assuming not changing the architecture/design). They are only suited for web browsing, office use-cases and debugging (but also kinda where made only for that use-case). Well I guess Dead Cells and similar "low requirement/high optimized" games still run nicely on it on 1080p. Still nice to have them if you only have such use-cases saves a ton of money.
      - seabrookmx 3y ago
        APU is a marketing term. The GPU's in them are still integrated GPU's. Intel didn't have anything that held a candle to them until the Iris branded parts, and even those lagged behind. > integrated GPUs of the 7000 serious (not APUs) are maximal minimalist to a point I think they couldn't have shrunken them more Right, because these are meant as a backup display output in parts that are aimed at the gaming market, where they will almost always be paired with a GPU. Comparable parts in prior Ryzen generations didn't even have an iGPU. Intel offers you the choice (no GPU in the "K" SKU) which is nice.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>they're Zen 4 chips with better integrated graphics (which gamers likely won't care about anyway) Integrated GPUs are becoming far more appealing to the general consumer, including (especially?) gamers, with how fucking expensive discrete GPUs are getting these days (AMD is part of that problem). We might just witness dGPUs becoming the sound cards of this decade.
- mirsadm 3y ago
  Extremely unlikely. The types of GPUs these compete against don't cost a lot of money.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    An RTX 4060 (with a pitiful 8GB vram) is about $300. Something a bit more practical like an RTX 4070 (with 12GB vram) is about $550. That is bullshit expensive. It's still nowhere near as bad as during the cryptomining craze, but remember a GTX 1080 MSRP'd for about $430 back in the old days. An RTX 4080 for context is around $1,500 to $2,000 right now. If I'm just looking to game and only have a reasonable budget like most people, I'll just grab some AMD APU and be done with it. Better yet just go and buy a console or game on my phone.
    - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
      How do the best integrated graphics compare performance-wise though? If they are way behind in performance, you might be able to buy a cheap 2GB VRAM GPU for less than a cutting edge integrated graphics CPU.
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > you might be able to buy a cheap 2GB VRAM GPU Lol? It's another ~$100 what would not yield you any performance gains. Older 5700G was ~$300 so it was hardly a part of a budget build, but 5 5500GT is $125 (and would probably drop below $100 in a half/year) and would clearly offer at least 30fps on FullHD[0] and you would buy it anyway because it's a CPU. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-5600g-review/3 https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-5600g-revie...
0x457 3y ago
Well, look at the steam hardware survey, you're going to be surprised.
- sva_ 3y ago
  People playing on laptops and the steamdeck? All legit uses for the iGPU (I have one myself) https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
  - dathinab 3y ago
    I think they meant people playing on really old dedicated GPU which likely are slower then the 8700G to a point where a 8700G might be a good replacement if their setup breaks or similar.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      That's obviously not-legit. /s
shmerl 3y ago
Steam Deck users would disagree about integrated graphics. Besides, APUs really got good for gaming unless you push resolution high.
- sva_ 3y ago
  I think they were hinting at the fact that the iGPU is more interesting to users of the mobile CPU (Steamdeck/Laptops), since this is a desktop CPU, which usually have dedicated graphics.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    Dedicated AMD graphics starts at around 100 €.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jabroni_salad 3y ago
I used to play WoW on a Llano APU. Plenty of gamers are addicted to something like that and just want a serviceable cheap machine. Pretty sure my current 3070 cost more than the entire computer I was killing Deathwing with.
- Arrath 3y ago
  I played healer so I could just point my camera at the floor zoomed in as far as possible and suffer the least bad performance possible. And scramble to get back in-game after guaranteed disconnects on big events e.g. every time Nefarion spawned a wave of ads. What a struggle.
- dezsiszabi 3y ago
  Is that extreme gaming though?
  - seuraughty 3y ago
    Maybe extreme in the other direction lol
dathinab 3y ago
The 5700G had for some time been one of the best options for budged gaming. The 8700G should be seen as a successor of that I think. Enough to play a huge amount of games nicely under 1080p. But in a certain way at the lowest end of desktop gaming. Still better then the low-mid range of gaming on a laptop, tho. But for a lot of people that is exactly the right balance of what they get to what they pay. Weather that's because they don't have a lot money or they don't do a lot gaming and don't want to wast money. The main "problem" the 8700G might run into is I guess that the cost of AM5 motherboards and RAM. Also AMD (and I think Intel, too) have in recent years slowly worked to take advantage of integrated graphics even if you have also dedicated graphics (of the same vendor) if that sees some more improvements the 8700G could also become interesting in some use-case you wouldn't expect today. We will see.
- NohatCoder 3y ago
  A quick check puts a Ryzen 5 5600 and a Radeon RX 6600 at $360 combined, where the 8700G is set to $330. And a RX 6600 will deliver around double the graphics performance. So even without factoring in motherboard and memory the 8700G is hard to justify for a cheap gaming rig.
  - chx 3y ago
    Source: https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-5-5600-ryzen-5-5000-series/p/N82E16819113736 https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-5-5600-ryzen-5-5000-series/... $150 https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709%20601394871&Order=1 https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709%20601394871&Order=1 starts at $210 indeed. People might argue the 5600 is Zen 3 where the 8700G is Zen 4.
  - snvzz 3y ago
    $30 more ignores cost of electricity. That combination uses more than a little extra power, relative to the APU.
    - kevingadd 3y ago
      Generally speaking, you can set the power target of a high-spec GPU below 100% to get most of the performance at significantly reduced power draw. So if you're cost sensitive it's still probably better to get a dGPU, just cap the power. The dGPUs have more cores and wider memory buses/dedicated memory which delivers higher performance than the space constrained integrated GPUs.
nottorp 3y ago
> which gamers likely won't care about anyway Seriously? I'm through with buying expensive space heaters. These CPUs are 65 W so I might upgrade the cpu with integrated graphics in my x86 box with them. And my main entertainment is games.
DeathArrow 3y ago
And using the quiet expensive AM5 platform.

kkzz99 3y ago

Do these AI accelerators even support common implementations for LLM inference or stable diffusion models? Last time I checked, AMD's support was terrible.

diggan 3y ago
I'm guessing no, as these newly announced processors are the first with those accelerators. > AMD is also bringing the power of a dedicated AI neural processing unit (NPU) to desktop PC processors for the first time with the introduction of Ryzen™ AI
- wtallis 3y ago
  They're merely the first desktop processors from AMD with these NPUs. This is last year's laptop silicon repackaged for their desktop socket. They also re-branded the laptop version with new model numbers, because laptop OEMs basically demand new model numbers on an annual cadence. This year their marketing for these chips is heavily emphasizing the NPUs, because they actually have some tooling for them now, but they were basically dead weight when the silicon first shipped.
zamalek 3y ago
AMD's support is terrible, if you believe their documentation. ROCm/hip works just fine (well, with Torch - Tensorflow is shamelessly an NVIDIA shill) on many "unsupported" GPUs if you enable an override envar.
- NekkoDroid 3y ago
  To add a bit more context: I remember reading somewhere (may have been in the Phoronix forum) from an official AMD engeneer that "supported" means validated and actively tested in their pipeline, while "unsupported" generally just means "we don't do any or minimal testing on these, they should work and we don't explicitly prevent them from working but we don't guarantee anything" (at least when it comes to same die/gen cards). In the same post they also wrote that they are gonna look at integrating more of those "unsupported" cards into their suite. Honestly, I hope they change their wording for this to something like "validated", "supported" and "unsupported" with actual explenations what each of these mean (fully tested, works theoretically, does not work even theoretically) Edit: I actually found the post I was talking about https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-amd-linux/1428866-amd-rocm-6-0-now-available-to-download-with-mi300-support-pytorch-fp8-more-ai#post1428924 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d...
  - makomk 3y ago
    ROCm is also incredibly fragile and buggy at the best of times, so anything not actively tested by them stands a good chance of not working. Hell, I remember that a while back people were having problems with machine learning code giving garbage results on one of the few consumer GPUs that was officially listed as supported and AMD eventually replying to the bug report and declaring that actually, no they weren't going to support it and they'd remove it from the list ratther than try and fix the issue. I think this was back when newer consumer GPUs were genuinely unsupported as in the code simply wasn't there too. Integrated GPUs have also alwayu had a lot of problems. There's also questionable OS compatiblity. ROCm is Linux-based and has extremely limited and rather experimental Windows support. Their fancy new neural processing unit is Windows-only, tied in with a Microsoft framework, and they don't seem to have any kind of definite plan for supporting it elsewhere. So there's quite possibly no single OS where all the hardware that theoretically could be used for machine learning and AI in these chips actually has even vaguely functioning code that works on that OS to make it work that way.
    - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
caycep 3y ago
as long as PyTorch supports it, does it matter?
- antx 3y ago
  for as long as I'll need to recompile PyTorch for it to adequately support my card, yes, it matters.
  - weebull 3y ago
    The problem there is with PyTorch. They've got bugs in their AMD build flow that people keep pointing out to them, but because it's people with consumer cards which are "unsupported" (which just means AMD won't personally solve your problems with those cards, not that they aren't intended to work) they close the issues / PRs without fixing the bug. AMDs wording isn't helping either of course.

coffeebeqn 3y ago

Extreme integrated GPUs? Marketing department going wild

_cenw 3y ago
They are enough to run the Ally, and they're closely related to the one in the Steam Deck. So maybe they're extreme in the segment of integrated graphics??
bonton89 3y ago
They're just trying to compete with Intel Extreme Graphics from 2002. Must be they're reaching performance parity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_process...
- seabrookmx 3y ago
  Parity? AMD integrated GPU's have outperformed Intel's for many years.
  - dathinab 3y ago
    only APU like the 5700G, 8700G or the recent Steam Deck APU (in reasonable comparison targets) The integrated GPUs of the 7000 serious (not APUs) are maximal minimalist to a point I think they couldn't have shrunken them more without running into unusual issues (assuming not changing the architecture/design). They are only suited for web browsing, office use-cases and debugging (but also kinda where made only for that use-case). Well I guess Dead Cells and similar "low requirement/high optimized" games still run nicely on it on 1080p. Still nice to have them if you only have such use-cases saves a ton of money.
    - seabrookmx 3y ago
      APU is a marketing term. The GPU's in them are still integrated GPU's. Intel didn't have anything that held a candle to them until the Iris branded parts, and even those lagged behind. > integrated GPUs of the 7000 serious (not APUs) are maximal minimalist to a point I think they couldn't have shrunken them more Right, because these are meant as a backup display output in parts that are aimed at the gaming market, where they will almost always be paired with a GPU. Comparable parts in prior Ryzen generations didn't even have an iGPU. Intel offers you the choice (no GPU in the "K" SKU) which is nice.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>they're Zen 4 chips with better integrated graphics (which gamers likely won't care about anyway) Integrated GPUs are becoming far more appealing to the general consumer, including (especially?) gamers, with how fucking expensive discrete GPUs are getting these days (AMD is part of that problem). We might just witness dGPUs becoming the sound cards of this decade.

mirsadm 3y ago
Extremely unlikely. The types of GPUs these compete against don't cost a lot of money.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  An RTX 4060 (with a pitiful 8GB vram) is about $300. Something a bit more practical like an RTX 4070 (with 12GB vram) is about $550. That is bullshit expensive. It's still nowhere near as bad as during the cryptomining craze, but remember a GTX 1080 MSRP'd for about $430 back in the old days. An RTX 4080 for context is around $1,500 to $2,000 right now. If I'm just looking to game and only have a reasonable budget like most people, I'll just grab some AMD APU and be done with it. Better yet just go and buy a console or game on my phone.
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    How do the best integrated graphics compare performance-wise though? If they are way behind in performance, you might be able to buy a cheap 2GB VRAM GPU for less than a cutting edge integrated graphics CPU.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      > you might be able to buy a cheap 2GB VRAM GPU Lol? It's another ~$100 what would not yield you any performance gains. Older 5700G was ~$300 so it was hardly a part of a budget build, but 5 5500GT is $125 (and would probably drop below $100 in a half/year) and would clearly offer at least 30fps on FullHD[0] and you would buy it anyway because it's a CPU. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-5600g-review/3 https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-5600g-revie...

0x457 3y ago

Well, look at the steam hardware survey, you're going to be surprised.

sva_ 3y ago
People playing on laptops and the steamdeck? All legit uses for the iGPU (I have one myself) https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
- dathinab 3y ago
  I think they meant people playing on really old dedicated GPU which likely are slower then the 8700G to a point where a 8700G might be a good replacement if their setup breaks or similar.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    That's obviously not-legit. /s

shmerl 3y ago

Steam Deck users would disagree about integrated graphics. Besides, APUs really got good for gaming unless you push resolution high.

sva_ 3y ago
I think they were hinting at the fact that the iGPU is more interesting to users of the mobile CPU (Steamdeck/Laptops), since this is a desktop CPU, which usually have dedicated graphics.
- hulitu 3y ago
  Dedicated AMD graphics starts at around 100 €.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jabroni_salad 3y ago

I used to play WoW on a Llano APU. Plenty of gamers are addicted to something like that and just want a serviceable cheap machine. Pretty sure my current 3070 cost more than the entire computer I was killing Deathwing with.

Arrath 3y ago
I played healer so I could just point my camera at the floor zoomed in as far as possible and suffer the least bad performance possible. And scramble to get back in-game after guaranteed disconnects on big events e.g. every time Nefarion spawned a wave of ads. What a struggle.
dezsiszabi 3y ago
Is that extreme gaming though?
- seuraughty 3y ago
  Maybe extreme in the other direction lol

dathinab 3y ago

The 5700G had for some time been one of the best options for budged gaming. The 8700G should be seen as a successor of that I think. Enough to play a huge amount of games nicely under 1080p. But in a certain way at the lowest end of desktop gaming. Still better then the low-mid range of gaming on a laptop, tho. But for a lot of people that is exactly the right balance of what they get to what they pay. Weather that's because they don't have a lot money or they don't do a lot gaming and don't want to wast money. The main "problem" the 8700G might run into is I guess that the cost of AM5 motherboards and RAM. Also AMD (and I think Intel, too) have in recent years slowly worked to take advantage of integrated graphics even if you have also dedicated graphics (of the same vendor) if that sees some more improvements the 8700G could also become interesting in some use-case you wouldn't expect today. We will see.

NohatCoder 3y ago
A quick check puts a Ryzen 5 5600 and a Radeon RX 6600 at $360 combined, where the 8700G is set to $330. And a RX 6600 will deliver around double the graphics performance. So even without factoring in motherboard and memory the 8700G is hard to justify for a cheap gaming rig.
- chx 3y ago
  Source: https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-5-5600-ryzen-5-5000-series/p/N82E16819113736 https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-5-5600-ryzen-5-5000-series/... $150 https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709%20601394871&Order=1 https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709%20601394871&Order=1 starts at $210 indeed. People might argue the 5600 is Zen 3 where the 8700G is Zen 4.
- snvzz 3y ago
  $30 more ignores cost of electricity. That combination uses more than a little extra power, relative to the APU.
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    Generally speaking, you can set the power target of a high-spec GPU below 100% to get most of the performance at significantly reduced power draw. So if you're cost sensitive it's still probably better to get a dGPU, just cap the power. The dGPUs have more cores and wider memory buses/dedicated memory which delivers higher performance than the space constrained integrated GPUs.

nottorp 3y ago

> which gamers likely won't care about anyway Seriously? I'm through with buying expensive space heaters. These CPUs are 65 W so I might upgrade the cpu with integrated graphics in my x86 box with them. And my main entertainment is games.

DeathArrow 3y ago

And using the quiet expensive AM5 platform.