6 ms·

But I was told EV's would be much more reliable and cheaper to repair?

by throw7 3y ago

tanseydavid 3y ago
YMMV
belltaco 3y ago
Hertz says conventional maintenance is lower cost on EVs compared to similar ICE cars.
- samketchup 3y ago
  Granted they're dumping the fleet with degraded battery packs before doing the 15k+ replacement, sure.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Where does this myth come from? Looks it's about 10% battery degradation after 200K miles. Tesla is rating their batteries for 300K to 500K miles. Most American company ICE cars are scrapped by then. Not to mention all the ICE related maintenance costs over that time like oil changes, transmission fluid, timing belts, hoses, etc. etc. You can look at 6 to 10 year Model S cars.
    - samketchup 3y ago
      It's not a myth at all, and Tesla's "rating" is a lie. Look at data on Prius battery packs and what Toyota rates them for(100-150k). I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV, but there is much more data and I actually trust Toyota. Buying an EV with 100k miles and the original battery pack for 20k is a bad idea.
      - gridspy 3y ago
        Lithium-ion battery lifetimes are based on charge-discharge cycles. The Prius battery is far smaller (about 5-10x smaller) than a Tesla battery, so it is cycling charge / discharge far more often. So you'd expect the same quality battery to last 5-10x less miles in a Prius than a Tesla driving the same distance. It's likely that Tesla's investment in battery quality and active temperature controls mean the Tesla battery is also treated better and higher quality. Topping that battery up with a generator in the Prius complicates things, both reducing kWh used per mile (some from generator) but also allowing a discharge - recharge cycle to occur multiple times in the same trip.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        > I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV I don't think you do. Prius's have only recently started using lithium ion batteries, for one. And they cycle the small battery a lot faster than a BEV. Everything we've learned from hybrids suggests BEVs will get hundreds of thousands of miles from the battery (and so far, from the cars which haven driven that far, this has proven correct).
      - cyberax 3y ago
        There are multiple sites that track real-life Tesla battery degradation. It averages at 12% after 200k miles: https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-deg... I have a Tesla, and I use it in the worst possible way for the battery: road trips with deep discharges and frequent 100% fast charges. I'm at 100k miles, and it degraded by 9%.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      > Where does this myth come from? Politics.
      - throwaway15858 3y ago
        The problem is the degradation is fastest when it's brand new.
        rootusrootus 3y ago
        Sure, but when the overall degradation is pretty minimal, this doesn't matter terribly much. I'm at 96.5% rated capacity after 12K miles. That's pretty typical. I should be down near 90-93% capacity at 100K miles. I probably won't keep this car long enough to get down to 80%. At that point I -might- consider replacing the battery, but given how old the car will be, it's not too likely. The only way the battery ever gets replaced in this car is if it fails altogether. Right now if I had to pay that out of pocket it would be more than a new engine, but not by a huge amount. By the time I don't have a battery warranty, the cost will most likely be in line with a used engine for a similar ICE car.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Problem how? That sounds like the opposite of a problem to me. Everyone is used to a car massively dropping in value immediately after purchase. If the battery drops right away and then that slows down a lot, you won't need a replacement for a very long time.
mcguire 3y ago
Tesla's repair and spare parts model?
slg 3y ago
It generally is, but that could be the difference between owning one and running a fleet. They are low maintenance and rarely require repairs, but when they do, they can be awfully costly. That could result in a low median cost but higher mean cost. Owning 20k means you are going to have to deal with that average, but an individual owner probably lucks out with the median cost.
- dxbydt 3y ago
  Can confirm. For a fleet owner, cost to repair vehicle is generally modeled as an [1] exponentially distributed rv, which has a positive skew, so [2] mean > median. [1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/187618/finding-combined-time-to-repair-two-machines-where-time-is-exponentially-distrib https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/187618/finding-comb... [2] https://i.stack.imgur.com/2w6it.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/2w6it.png
bdcravens 3y ago
Personal ownership, typically yes. Rental cars are a different beast, with the amount of miles and abuse they receive. When I had a gas car on Turo, I had to deal with all kinds of weirdness that never happened when I drove the same car.
- dv35z 3y ago
  Care to share your 3 top wildest?
hibikir 3y ago
And they tend to be, along with needing less maintenance. Tesla, however, has a ludicrous parts system compared to any traditional car company, for parts that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the car is using an electric powertrain. Ask for the cost of a new front bumper... it's not pretty. And as far as fender bender risk goes, it also doesn't help that a Tesla is, in practice, far more powerful at low speeds than the typical car the renter is used to. Pressed the gas pedal when you meant to brake? You'll be in for a surprise. They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely: Being able to do one pedal driving is great if you know the car, but probably a big surprise for someone renting.
- pmontra 3y ago
  > They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely It's been at least 4 years since I drove an EV so I don't remember what they do. I expect the car to slow down and eventually come to a halt. I remember that I wasn't surprised by anything in particular so it's probably what it did. What do Teslas do?
  - fomine3 3y ago
    There are many EV noobs who haven't driven yet, and their first try might be a rent car.
  - tredre3 3y ago
    > What do Teslas do? Teslas do aggressive regen braking when you lift your foot. And it's not possible to disable that behavior, unlike other EVs. So-called single pedal driving isn't very familiar to most drivers, making it unsuitable for rentals where users would prefer not having a learning curve. Also if you ask the community how to disable regen braking you'll be told that you're driving it wrong, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/zswnhi/anyone_know_if_it_is_possible_to_completely_turn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/zswnhi/anyone_... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/s3xy-buttons-regenerative-braking.285360/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/s3xy-buttons-regener... https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14r90q6/disable_regenerative_breaking_in_winter_model_y/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14r90q6/disabl...

But I was told EV's would be much more reliable and cheaper to repair?

by throw7 3y ago

But I was told EV's would be much more reliable and cheaper to repair?

tanseydavid 3y ago

YMMV

belltaco 3y ago

Hertz says conventional maintenance is lower cost on EVs compared to similar ICE cars.

samketchup 3y ago
Granted they're dumping the fleet with degraded battery packs before doing the 15k+ replacement, sure.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Where does this myth come from? Looks it's about 10% battery degradation after 200K miles. Tesla is rating their batteries for 300K to 500K miles. Most American company ICE cars are scrapped by then. Not to mention all the ICE related maintenance costs over that time like oil changes, transmission fluid, timing belts, hoses, etc. etc. You can look at 6 to 10 year Model S cars.
  - samketchup 3y ago
    It's not a myth at all, and Tesla's "rating" is a lie. Look at data on Prius battery packs and what Toyota rates them for(100-150k). I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV, but there is much more data and I actually trust Toyota. Buying an EV with 100k miles and the original battery pack for 20k is a bad idea.
    - gridspy 3y ago
      Lithium-ion battery lifetimes are based on charge-discharge cycles. The Prius battery is far smaller (about 5-10x smaller) than a Tesla battery, so it is cycling charge / discharge far more often. So you'd expect the same quality battery to last 5-10x less miles in a Prius than a Tesla driving the same distance. It's likely that Tesla's investment in battery quality and active temperature controls mean the Tesla battery is also treated better and higher quality. Topping that battery up with a generator in the Prius complicates things, both reducing kWh used per mile (some from generator) but also allowing a discharge - recharge cycle to occur multiple times in the same trip.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      > I understand I'm comparing a hybrid to an EV I don't think you do. Prius's have only recently started using lithium ion batteries, for one. And they cycle the small battery a lot faster than a BEV. Everything we've learned from hybrids suggests BEVs will get hundreds of thousands of miles from the battery (and so far, from the cars which haven driven that far, this has proven correct).
    - cyberax 3y ago
      There are multiple sites that track real-life Tesla battery degradation. It averages at 12% after 200k miles: https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-deg... I have a Tesla, and I use it in the worst possible way for the battery: road trips with deep discharges and frequent 100% fast charges. I'm at 100k miles, and it degraded by 9%.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > Where does this myth come from? Politics.
    - throwaway15858 3y ago
      The problem is the degradation is fastest when it's brand new.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        Sure, but when the overall degradation is pretty minimal, this doesn't matter terribly much. I'm at 96.5% rated capacity after 12K miles. That's pretty typical. I should be down near 90-93% capacity at 100K miles. I probably won't keep this car long enough to get down to 80%. At that point I -might- consider replacing the battery, but given how old the car will be, it's not too likely. The only way the battery ever gets replaced in this car is if it fails altogether. Right now if I had to pay that out of pocket it would be more than a new engine, but not by a huge amount. By the time I don't have a battery warranty, the cost will most likely be in line with a used engine for a similar ICE car.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Problem how? That sounds like the opposite of a problem to me. Everyone is used to a car massively dropping in value immediately after purchase. If the battery drops right away and then that slows down a lot, you won't need a replacement for a very long time.

mcguire 3y ago

Tesla's repair and spare parts model?

slg 3y ago

It generally is, but that could be the difference between owning one and running a fleet. They are low maintenance and rarely require repairs, but when they do, they can be awfully costly. That could result in a low median cost but higher mean cost. Owning 20k means you are going to have to deal with that average, but an individual owner probably lucks out with the median cost.

dxbydt 3y ago
Can confirm. For a fleet owner, cost to repair vehicle is generally modeled as an [1] exponentially distributed rv, which has a positive skew, so [2] mean > median. [1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/187618/finding-combined-time-to-repair-two-machines-where-time-is-exponentially-distrib https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/187618/finding-comb... [2] https://i.stack.imgur.com/2w6it.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/2w6it.png

bdcravens 3y ago

Personal ownership, typically yes. Rental cars are a different beast, with the amount of miles and abuse they receive. When I had a gas car on Turo, I had to deal with all kinds of weirdness that never happened when I drove the same car.

dv35z 3y ago
Care to share your 3 top wildest?

hibikir 3y ago

And they tend to be, along with needing less maintenance. Tesla, however, has a ludicrous parts system compared to any traditional car company, for parts that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the car is using an electric powertrain. Ask for the cost of a new front bumper... it's not pretty. And as far as fender bender risk goes, it also doesn't help that a Tesla is, in practice, far more powerful at low speeds than the typical car the renter is used to. Pressed the gas pedal when you meant to brake? You'll be in for a surprise. They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely: Being able to do one pedal driving is great if you know the car, but probably a big surprise for someone renting.

pmontra 3y ago
> They are also probably unaccustomed to the car's behavior when you lift the gas pedal completely It's been at least 4 years since I drove an EV so I don't remember what they do. I expect the car to slow down and eventually come to a halt. I remember that I wasn't surprised by anything in particular so it's probably what it did. What do Teslas do?
- fomine3 3y ago
  There are many EV noobs who haven't driven yet, and their first try might be a rent car.
- tredre3 3y ago
  > What do Teslas do? Teslas do aggressive regen braking when you lift your foot. And it's not possible to disable that behavior, unlike other EVs. So-called single pedal driving isn't very familiar to most drivers, making it unsuitable for rentals where users would prefer not having a learning curve. Also if you ask the community how to disable regen braking you'll be told that you're driving it wrong, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/zswnhi/anyone_know_if_it_is_possible_to_completely_turn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/zswnhi/anyone_... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/s3xy-buttons-regenerative-braking.285360/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/s3xy-buttons-regener... https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14r90q6/disable_regenerative_breaking_in_winter_model_y/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14r90q6/disabl...