6 ms·

We're already incentivized to do things like running the dishwasher in the evening do to costs, no? Or is the implication that it would be considerably even mor

by dfxm12 3y ago

We're already incentivized to do things like running the dishwasher in the evening do to costs, no? Or is the implication that it would be considerably even more cheap?

dpkirchner 3y ago
Depends on where you live -- where I'm at, there's no time of day based savings (unless you're a big industrial user, IIUC).
- axus 3y ago
  In my area, summer "peak hours" often make up half my electricity usage. The off-peak hours are the other half. The price at peak times is more than double the flat rate, but only 30% cheaper for off-peak. I'm already reducing my energy use as much as is comfortable, if I want to maintain that I'd be paying more money than the flat rate. The scheme only saves energy if its not optional.
- jakewins 3y ago
  This is rapidly changing worldwide though: as more variable production comes online, the value of shaping demand grows. Missouri is moving to hourly rates this year IIRC. EU already is on 60-min day-ahead prices and pushing hard to get to 15minutely prices.
MattGaiser 3y ago
Depends on whether your jurisdiction has time of use pricing.
dylan604 3y ago
This is where I'm really intrigued of all-house battery packs like the Tesla Powerwall (it's the only name of one I'm familiar to call out). I like the idea that it charges at night during the lower rates, and during the day the house is powered from the battery. Just haven't seen any longevity reports on them in general vs brochure data.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Tesla warranties the Powerwall for 10 years, 15 years if part of one of their virtual power plants (orchestrated by Autobidder [1]). Look into the 30% federal tax credit for it, as well as state, local, and utility incentives. If you don't yet have solar and your site is favorable, I strongly recommend considering it if you can have it installed at a reasonable cost. [1] https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-software/autobidder https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-software/autobidd...
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Solar doesn't work for my property. There are too many trees doing exactly what they were intended to do by shading the roof top. Otherwise, it would be great as the roof alignment is pretty ideal.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    Can you submit a residential battery to Autobidder?
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      If Tesla has a virtual power plant program in your geography. https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-virtual-power-plant-pge https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-virtual-power-pla... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32500926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32500926
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  One thing to consider is that if that's profitable to do at house scale, then it's probably even more profitable to do at grid scale and you'll likely be out-competed by utility companies. Edit: Unless you're taking advantage of tax incentives to do it at house scale. Its hard to beat the economics of just being handed free money.
  - dylan604 3y ago
tallowen 3y ago
I think the implication is that we'll see a further split around pricing. One thing that stood out to me is that in the case of thermal loads (perhaps your dishwasher but more realistically a hotwater heater). It will become more worthwhile for that system to know when high and low electricity prices are and store more heat (i.e. hotwater) at low electricity prices and wait until prices fall again to refill it. In this sense, a heater would be operating like a battery. In a world where energy prices are stable throughout the day, it doesn't make sense to manufacture, for example, a price aware water heater with extra storage capacity. It seems like that calculus is changing with solar and other renewables creating an incentive for variable rates compared to traditional fixed rate alternatives.
- jakewins 3y ago
  Recall your entire house is a thermal battery too! In fact, all the four major energy loads in a house - Heating/Cooling, Water heating, EV Charging, House Battery - are extremely flexible. But we're still lacking good standards for reliable control. Today we do stuff like tell your HVAC to stop via vendor X's cloud API. What happens if your router dies after we send a "stop" command in the middle of the winter? For many of the minisplits I see control code for, they'd just let the house freeze, waiting forever for another command that'll never arrive. For critical functions like "keep my water pipes from freezing" / "be able to drive to work in the morning", we need much better standards for reliable control and safe failure modes.
  - phh 3y ago
    French's "fil pilote" to control electrical radiators is quite bullet proof in this regard: No power on command wire = comfort thermostat, full power = "eco" thermostat, and there are other more convoluted signaling for various modes (send only positive voltage, only negative, only a third of the phase) , including simple anti freeze mode. There is an off command as well, but you really can't send it accidently. If your IoT dies, you'll most likely get to the comfort mode. Only nit is that in 2023 the default mode would probably be "eco" rather than "comfort"
  - MostlyStable 3y ago
JohnFen 3y ago
> We're already incentivized to do things like running the dishwasher in the evening do to costs, no? Not where I live. Electricity costs the same here no matter what day or time of day it is.
- soco 3y ago
  My (Swiss, small) provider just got rid of differentiated pricing "for simplicity sake". On the other hand they continuously increase the solar installations, so I really don't get their point. But I'm not an economist so...
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    My jurisdiction went all-in on residential smart meters for all to do time of use billing. Even apartments where hvac, hot water and laundry are central, and the builder/owner chooses the big appliances. But it turns out people don’t care and didn’t bother with enough load shifting to cover the cost. “Smart Metering Costs to Date Exceed Projected Costs and Benefits” says it all. They did get/build a $249m centre to monitor all the data though. https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en14/311en14.pdf https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports... Even after ~15 years, most equipment still doesn’t care about time of use. Most savings have been due to better regulations/promotions around efficiency. Subsidized LED light bulbs accomplish more than telling people to turn off the incandescent. But you know, giving useful stuff to people for free is WeLFarE but forcing untested policies on them and making them pay for it is okay.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      What are the relative costs? It depends very much on the weather, but in Denmark the cost can vary from around 1DKK/kWh (€0.14) to 5kr/kWh (€0.67), or a few hours a year even more. Recent and future prices are shown here: https://andelenergi.dk/kundeservice/aftaler-og-priser/timepris/ https://andelenergi.dk/kundeservice/aftaler-og-priser/timepr... I don't know of any studies done here, but anecdotally I do know people who have the app version of that webpage and will schedule their laundry/dishwasher accordingly. (And of course EV owners will configure their car to charge at the cheapest period.) Personally, the saving isn't worth thinking about for me. I run the dishwasher overnight anyway and sometimes the washing machine, but that's to avoid the noise during the evening rather than any economic or environmental reason.
bruce511 3y ago
I had a solar system installed last year. During the day, from around 8am til around 5pm we are "off grid" in the sense that we can generate more than we use. I've already switched hot water and pool pump to daytime rather than night. The dishwasher now runs in the morning, not after dinner. Washing and drying, Aircon/ heating mostly happened during the day anyway. Overall our use of grid power has dropped to 20%, and I think we can get it down to 10% (at least I summer time.) So yes, in the sense that the daytime cost is now a -lot- cheaper (think free) I'm seeing how we are heavily incentivised to change our usage patterns.
- anthomtb 3y ago
  I moved to a house with a solar system in October. I now make a point to run the dishwasher and dryer during day time hours. And avoid using the dryer on cloudy days. It doesn't really matter when I run these appliances. Between fixed rate electricity and net metering, the cost will be the same even if they run at night. But I get weird satisfaction knowing that the sun is providing the power.
  - guerby 3y ago
    And don't forget the ultimate flexible load: electric vehicles. In 2023 near half of my (relatively well insulated all electric home) energy use was charging my EV at home.
    - anthomtb 3y ago
      That's in the game plan for 2024, no question. My new home came at the cost of doubling my commute distance. An EV charged by my own rooftop would be better for both the planet and my own bottom line. Edit: Any chance you're in the US? If so, what EV are you driving?
      - guerby 3y ago
        I'm in the south of France, owning a Tesla Model 3 since 2019 now with 104k km on the odometer (152 Wh/km average). Before that it was a Renault Twingo v1 2006 model.

by dfxm12 3y ago

We're already incentivized to do things like running the dishwasher in the evening do to costs, no? Or is the implication that it would be considerably even more cheap?

dpkirchner 3y ago

Depends on where you live -- where I'm at, there's no time of day based savings (unless you're a big industrial user, IIUC).

axus 3y ago
In my area, summer "peak hours" often make up half my electricity usage. The off-peak hours are the other half. The price at peak times is more than double the flat rate, but only 30% cheaper for off-peak. I'm already reducing my energy use as much as is comfortable, if I want to maintain that I'd be paying more money than the flat rate. The scheme only saves energy if its not optional.
jakewins 3y ago
This is rapidly changing worldwide though: as more variable production comes online, the value of shaping demand grows. Missouri is moving to hourly rates this year IIRC. EU already is on 60-min day-ahead prices and pushing hard to get to 15minutely prices.

MattGaiser 3y ago

Depends on whether your jurisdiction has time of use pricing.

dylan604 3y ago

This is where I'm really intrigued of all-house battery packs like the Tesla Powerwall (it's the only name of one I'm familiar to call out). I like the idea that it charges at night during the lower rates, and during the day the house is powered from the battery. Just haven't seen any longevity reports on them in general vs brochure data.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Tesla warranties the Powerwall for 10 years, 15 years if part of one of their virtual power plants (orchestrated by Autobidder [1]). Look into the 30% federal tax credit for it, as well as state, local, and utility incentives. If you don't yet have solar and your site is favorable, I strongly recommend considering it if you can have it installed at a reasonable cost. [1] https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-software/autobidder https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-software/autobidd...
- dylan604 3y ago
  Solar doesn't work for my property. There are too many trees doing exactly what they were intended to do by shading the roof top. Otherwise, it would be great as the roof alignment is pretty ideal.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  Can you submit a residential battery to Autobidder?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    If Tesla has a virtual power plant program in your geography. https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-virtual-power-plant-pge https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-virtual-power-pla... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32500926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32500926
Ajedi32 3y ago
One thing to consider is that if that's profitable to do at house scale, then it's probably even more profitable to do at grid scale and you'll likely be out-competed by utility companies. Edit: Unless you're taking advantage of tax incentives to do it at house scale. Its hard to beat the economics of just being handed free money.
- dylan604 3y ago

tallowen 3y ago

I think the implication is that we'll see a further split around pricing. One thing that stood out to me is that in the case of thermal loads (perhaps your dishwasher but more realistically a hotwater heater). It will become more worthwhile for that system to know when high and low electricity prices are and store more heat (i.e. hotwater) at low electricity prices and wait until prices fall again to refill it. In this sense, a heater would be operating like a battery. In a world where energy prices are stable throughout the day, it doesn't make sense to manufacture, for example, a price aware water heater with extra storage capacity. It seems like that calculus is changing with solar and other renewables creating an incentive for variable rates compared to traditional fixed rate alternatives.

jakewins 3y ago
Recall your entire house is a thermal battery too! In fact, all the four major energy loads in a house - Heating/Cooling, Water heating, EV Charging, House Battery - are extremely flexible. But we're still lacking good standards for reliable control. Today we do stuff like tell your HVAC to stop via vendor X's cloud API. What happens if your router dies after we send a "stop" command in the middle of the winter? For many of the minisplits I see control code for, they'd just let the house freeze, waiting forever for another command that'll never arrive. For critical functions like "keep my water pipes from freezing" / "be able to drive to work in the morning", we need much better standards for reliable control and safe failure modes.
- phh 3y ago
  French's "fil pilote" to control electrical radiators is quite bullet proof in this regard: No power on command wire = comfort thermostat, full power = "eco" thermostat, and there are other more convoluted signaling for various modes (send only positive voltage, only negative, only a third of the phase) , including simple anti freeze mode. There is an off command as well, but you really can't send it accidently. If your IoT dies, you'll most likely get to the comfort mode. Only nit is that in 2023 the default mode would probably be "eco" rather than "comfort"
- MostlyStable 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

> We're already incentivized to do things like running the dishwasher in the evening do to costs, no? Not where I live. Electricity costs the same here no matter what day or time of day it is.

soco 3y ago
My (Swiss, small) provider just got rid of differentiated pricing "for simplicity sake". On the other hand they continuously increase the solar installations, so I really don't get their point. But I'm not an economist so...
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  My jurisdiction went all-in on residential smart meters for all to do time of use billing. Even apartments where hvac, hot water and laundry are central, and the builder/owner chooses the big appliances. But it turns out people don’t care and didn’t bother with enough load shifting to cover the cost. “Smart Metering Costs to Date Exceed Projected Costs and Benefits” says it all. They did get/build a $249m centre to monitor all the data though. https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en14/311en14.pdf https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports... Even after ~15 years, most equipment still doesn’t care about time of use. Most savings have been due to better regulations/promotions around efficiency. Subsidized LED light bulbs accomplish more than telling people to turn off the incandescent. But you know, giving useful stuff to people for free is WeLFarE but forcing untested policies on them and making them pay for it is okay.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    What are the relative costs? It depends very much on the weather, but in Denmark the cost can vary from around 1DKK/kWh (€0.14) to 5kr/kWh (€0.67), or a few hours a year even more. Recent and future prices are shown here: https://andelenergi.dk/kundeservice/aftaler-og-priser/timepris/ https://andelenergi.dk/kundeservice/aftaler-og-priser/timepr... I don't know of any studies done here, but anecdotally I do know people who have the app version of that webpage and will schedule their laundry/dishwasher accordingly. (And of course EV owners will configure their car to charge at the cheapest period.) Personally, the saving isn't worth thinking about for me. I run the dishwasher overnight anyway and sometimes the washing machine, but that's to avoid the noise during the evening rather than any economic or environmental reason.

bruce511 3y ago

I had a solar system installed last year. During the day, from around 8am til around 5pm we are "off grid" in the sense that we can generate more than we use. I've already switched hot water and pool pump to daytime rather than night. The dishwasher now runs in the morning, not after dinner. Washing and drying, Aircon/ heating mostly happened during the day anyway. Overall our use of grid power has dropped to 20%, and I think we can get it down to 10% (at least I summer time.) So yes, in the sense that the daytime cost is now a -lot- cheaper (think free) I'm seeing how we are heavily incentivised to change our usage patterns.

anthomtb 3y ago
I moved to a house with a solar system in October. I now make a point to run the dishwasher and dryer during day time hours. And avoid using the dryer on cloudy days. It doesn't really matter when I run these appliances. Between fixed rate electricity and net metering, the cost will be the same even if they run at night. But I get weird satisfaction knowing that the sun is providing the power.
- guerby 3y ago
  And don't forget the ultimate flexible load: electric vehicles. In 2023 near half of my (relatively well insulated all electric home) energy use was charging my EV at home.
  - anthomtb 3y ago
    That's in the game plan for 2024, no question. My new home came at the cost of doubling my commute distance. An EV charged by my own rooftop would be better for both the planet and my own bottom line. Edit: Any chance you're in the US? If so, what EV are you driving?
    - guerby 3y ago
      I'm in the south of France, owning a Tesla Model 3 since 2019 now with 104k km on the odometer (152 Wh/km average). Before that it was a Renault Twingo v1 2006 model.