8 ms·

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

RedShift1 3y ago
Indoctrinated that unions are communism and/or result in worse working conditions and wages.
teitoklien 3y ago
You add unions in tech, and then wonder why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low.
- baq 3y ago
  Unions are for employees what HR is for companies and I don't see companies doing everything that's legal and some things which are blatantly illegal to prevent themselves from having HR departments
- oblio 3y ago
  There are basically no unions in tech in Europe. The countries where tech workers are dominated by tech unions can be counted on one hand, and they're probably the Nordic ones. Germany doesn't really have tech unions and for sure they don't dominate the tech scene. France, neither, Eastern Europe (all of them), don't, Southern Europe, not that I know of. Salaries are still low.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
  > dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low I don't think they are. I think salaries in the US are astronomical, and it boggles the mind how in California a 22 year old React nerd can command a salary five times higher than, say, a teacher. It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    > It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine. Where do you put the sofa? For locals who inherited and apartment somewhere in Stockholm or Berlin, or have been living in rent-controlled apartment for 20 years, sure, 50k after-tax is fine-ish. What about expats who didn't inherit a 500k Euro apartment from their late grandma?
    - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
      You can comfortably rent an apartment in most of Europe at market rates on an €80k salary.
      - caskstrength 3y ago
        Define "comfortably". In EU cities with developed IT job markets (Munich, Stockholm, Paris, etc.) you will be spending half of more of your after tax salary just on rent. And you won't be able to afford to live there anymore after you retire.
        yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
        Warsaw is a counterpoint to that, for example. It has a developed IT job market, and as a senior software developer you'd likely be spending ~20% of your salary on rent. Europe is more than just the few most expensive cities.
        caskstrength 3y ago
        Oh, I'm from eastern Europe myself and of course you can have quite comfortable life there for 80k gross. The counterpoint to that is that 80k is not nearly close to average salary of a person "developing web sites from their sofa" in that region.
        3y ago
- collyw 3y ago
  Nah, Spain has crap salaries, and I have never heard of unions here.
- badgersnake 3y ago
  Unions are pretty rare in tech in the UK also. I don’t think that’s the reason.
  - maxehmookau 3y ago
    That's not true I'm afraid. UTAW and CWU specifically are unions for tech workers in the UK. At big companies especially, like BT, a sizable proportion of the workforce is unionised.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I think they were the exception, the lay offs are likely execs realizing they can get the same or better by hiring someone remotely in a developing country to do the work. Not saying this is a better outcome for anyone specifically, but surely it's compelling?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
code51 3y ago
Most probably because they think unions would standardize salaries and eliminate outlier FAANG compensation packages. Everybody thinks they are special and would get that outlier compensation after all. An idea which is not so battle-tested as we see.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  Yeah the union I'm a part of said this was the major thing that people don't like at tech companies, and they explicitly say that their approach is not the same with other industries, and that they are fully on board with things like performance based compensation and keeping up with market rates.
resolutebat 3y ago
In the US, when you say "labor union", people think of a factory worker standing in a picket line outside some dinosaur car assembly plant in Flint, Michigan that's about to close anyway. The media has very successfully demonized unions, and many skilled workers believe the company line that unions drive down average wages, make it impossible to fire useless people, charge heavy membership fees, etc.
- typedef_struct 3y ago
  I usually think actors, writers, athletes, doctors, lawyers.
  - whstl 3y ago
    Maybe it's a marketing issues. Actors and other have "Guilds", lawyers have a "Bar"... (sure the other two you mentioned have unions but...)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - fireflash38 3y ago
      100% Agreed, and if we can combine that with some apprenticeships and minimum quifications for membership, I'm all in. Just name it like something you'd find from DnD.
      - trashtester 3y ago
        Except in real medieval Europe, guilds and apprenticeships were not about thieves and wizards, but instead smiths, carpenters and bricklayers.
        whstl 3y ago
        Well, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic... and at the time this was as advanced as you get!
johannes1234321 3y ago
I don't think they are that common in tech in Europe/Germany as well. SWEs are used to being in a good negotiation position and not in need for collective bargain. My employer has a works council, but no union representation. That council is mostly occupied with dealing with compensation (provisions, product assignments, ...) of sales people, who make the largest group, thus most votes. SWE needs aren't seen.
trashtester 3y ago
One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.
    - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
      That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.
      - 3y ago
rmvt 3y ago
they are the norm but not on the tech world. in my 10+ years working in europe (tech) i've never once met someone that was part of a union. i've had this discussion with my manager recently and you can see that people are starting to become aware (of unions) and see the need, after years of feeling untouchable. it's still very early though.
whiplash451 3y ago
In Europe, unions can have devastating effects by ruining the relationships between the leadership and the rank-and-file. We are stuck in a self-reinforcing feedback loop where unions represent a very small portion of the employees therefore most employees avoid being associated with unions because it makes you look like an activist.
- intexpress 3y ago
  Google leadership has been doing a thorough job at ruining the relationships between leadership and the rank-and-file
  - whiplash451 3y ago
    My comment was about what is happening in Europe, not in the US.
lgkk 3y ago
Unions kill innovation, at least in US. And 10-20% of people do the actual work so 80-90% can have the time to complain nonstop while making 400k plus. As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac. On the other hand almost everyone in the world uses something made by American corporations.
- myspy 3y ago
  Maybe in the US, but that's a problem how you unionize.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac. Keep in mind Europe exports more to the world market than America does (and more of them are goods versus services). Like yeah, if you live in the US you probably use more American-made tools - that is not true for the rest of the world. Just looking around my kitchen now - my knives are made in Germany; my coffee grinder in Norway; my toaster in the UK. Then it's mostly made in China (air fryer, microwave, kettle, pressure cooker). The coffee roaster I have packed away is made in South Korea; the 3D printer on the kitchen table is made in Czechia. I don't think I own a single kitchen tool or appliance made in the US. EDIT: Actually, yeah I've got an Aeropress made in the US.
mrtksn 3y ago
There's this phenomenon where employees earning higher than their friends and family OR at least doing work in a clean and safe environment tend to believe that they are not workers and they oppose regulations and unions because they feel like its beneath them. At the company of a friend of mine, the white collar employees do charity events for the blue colar ones and while the blue colar ones participate on labour day events, the white collar ones are too cool to be with them. But when the actual non-workers(the true elite) feel like they can make more money by laying off some white collar workers, the cool white collars go through the exact same process as the blue collar ones they chipped in for. Also, these are not even high earning white collars, they just happen to work in a pleasant environment. Many blue collar workers make more money in comparison to white them and are closer to the non-workers since they can actually do highly paid short term contract work. There's a strong cognitive dissonance going on among white collar workers, having trouble to process the signals on if they are the cool elite or the working class. In Europe, this is not as strong because of the unions and regulations pushing all workers to earn more less the same and the work environments are safe and clean. In places outside of EU there can be workers which are 10x or 100x beter off than those at the bottom because the top can be higher but usually the bottom is also much lower and this gets the better off ones very confused.
- justanorherhack 3y ago
  Nope. This is laughably out of touch -" I don't understand how certain people don't think like I do so they must be irrational." If unions were structured differently, there would be more incentives. People at large, in group form are much more rationale then academics want to give credit, they are simply following the incentives in their life and attempting to do what's best for themselves. Unions in the US are not very incentivising. In the us, the way laws are written, unions are a political entity and basically from inception are in bed with the government. This creates a mismatch of incentives as the union is motivated to operate politically and this is reflected internally because that's how power is derived externally and thus internally. This creates a lot of odd things like the local foreman who manages the house is doing so because he has been around for 20 years or because he is friends with the guy who has been around for 20 years or because he bought in with millions to be that guy not because they are the right people for the job. Because of these legal protections and structures unions don't have to compete against other unions and they don't have to compete for the workers membership either. For example the IATSE gets a cut of your work if you work in the industry because that's legally mandated even if you aren't a member. This encourages unions to become bloated, and self serving and it's not immediately clear their value add. Just like elsewhere in society top down structures begin to appear where a few people at the top of the union get most of the pie. Workers are hesitate to involve themselves with unions here because they are yielding agency to a political machine in a fairly permanent way. Don't forget some of the cons and headlines around unions here either. Some of the unions using violence, like the teamsters, here to gain power. Teachers unions trying to keep bloated headcounts in empty (by half) schools in Chicago nearly bankrupting the city. Police unions protecting their members despite obvious misconduct. Lots of police/fireman/city unions keep garenteeing investment return rates that aren't in line with the market that eventually bankrupt the city. If the legal freedom and incentives were there people would do it, but this system is by design. I am a soft engineer but have remained a iatse card holder.
laurels-marts 3y ago
As a European I'm curious which unions and industries are you talking about? I've been working tech or tech-adjacent jobs my entire life here and I've never been in a union nor do I know any friends (developers / designers) that are in a union. And I'm going to conferences and meetups on a regular. I'm not saying unions don't exist (probably more so in certain industries), but for devs to be in a union in Europe? Never heard of it.
- eloisant 3y ago
  We need to stop talking about "Europe" in general for things as country-specific as labor laws and unions.
- Snild 3y ago
  "Betriebsrat" sounds German to me, so possibly Germany? And definitely Sweden. Many (most?) of my software engineer colleagues are members of either the engineering-specific "Sveriges Ingenjörer" or generic white-collar "Unionen" union.
  - n_ary 3y ago
    > “Betriebsrat" sounds German to me, so possibly Germany? I am in Germany and I never heard of any union for Devs, not even large firms having any specific ones for Devs. My colleagues frequently discuss about unionizing but there are huge pay disparity hence most often it is hard to get everyone on board sadly. Most unions are intended for craftsmen, minijobs, public transports and such. There are some small employers covered by famous IG Metall tariff but that is not the norm. I know that likes of Airbus has some kind of union that covers most of the departments and hence pays insane salary but that is something I heard from friends of people who work there, so I can’t assure accuracy. There might be unions but that is not the norm except some dinosaurs.
- kevsim 3y ago
  I believe here in Norway it's about 50% of devs that are in the technical unions.
- speedgoose 3y ago
odiroot 3y ago
My only experience dealing with an union as a SWE, in Germany at that, has been a negative one. It shaped my opinion on the topic.
- lobsterthief 3y ago
  What about it was negative?
  - odiroot 3y ago
    They didn't want me to negotiate my offer, after I went through the whole interview process. Passed the message through my prospective boss: "take it or leave it, you can't have it better than people already at the company".
    - pbmonster 3y ago
      Yeah, salary negotiations in the context of a union contract is a specific skill. Knowing the system is absolutely essential. The way to go would have been to communicate to your prospective boss that he needs to create a position in a higher compensation tier, or a position outside the union contract. If they want you badly enough, both are possibilities. Especially position outside the union contract are very common once you're a senior/principal engineer. If it's only a small bump you want (not an entire compensation tier), telling your prospective boss that he needs to take your CV and convince HR that this means you have 15 years of relevant experience will also work - this will get you a high compensation level within your tier.
jokethrowaway 3y ago
I've never heard of anyone using unions in software in europe. Maybe something popular in just one country? The problem with unions is that if you are a top performer it's harder to get promoted, if you're crap it's harder to get rid of you. Overall it's great for non productive people who can pay a little and coast, great for everyone else. I can understand unions for low paid jobs the should be done by machines (eg. factory workers) but it doesn't make sense for knowledge work where performance has huge impact. Oh and they want money to do that.
bitcharmer 3y ago
Because in the US of A anything that's not aligned with maximising shareholder value is communism.
redleader55 3y ago
Because a big tech company will think twice before opening o position in Europe and will consider not the impact of that position could bring, but how hard is to fire someone from that position. Some of the people targeted by the last year's lay-offs were still employed one year later and the company couldn't do anything for stupid legal reasons, like not already having a union to negotiate for 1 person. Being in a limbo for 1 year, not being able to do anything except quit and loose any potential layoff compensation package, but neither able to work for the company, nor interview and find a new job is horrible for everyone involved. US restarted hiring quickly after the layoffs, but EU has still a hiring freeze in several FAANGS.
ur-whale 3y ago
> Why not in the US? How many large tech. companies has Europe produced ? Why would (or even: could) anyone start/build a cutting-edge tech. company in Europe given the hell that labor laws are over there ? Labor laws in Europe are a giant hindrance to economic growth. People in most European countries have made a political choice: safety and stagnation over wealth and growth. That's their choice, fine, they're free to do as they please in their own house. But when you make a choice, you can't ignore the consequences of these choices. That's why "not in the US": Different political choices, betting on growth, agility, innovation, running fast, and yes -- ooooh, what a terrible thing -- taking risks, and among others that employment may come and go because the world is not a static place.
- eloisant 3y ago
  It has nothing to do with labor laws, it's more about lack of investors. Many tech companies started in Europe, got successful then moved to US because they could not longer find big enough investors in Europe. Google only did layoffs very recently so I don't see how be able to fire people at will helped them grow.
  - ur-whale 3y ago
    > it's more about lack of investors. And why would you say, aren't there any large investors? If the labor market conditions were good (and taxes, and work ethics, and ... the list is very long), the investors would come, even from far away, believe me. Money can move around the world very fast these days.
- _pferreir_ 3y ago
  Wow, that's a very opinionated take, to say the least. Especially when by Europe we mean three dozen countries or so, all of them with their own history, policies and laws. A little bit more nuance would help.
paweladamczuk 3y ago
In Poland most people scoff at any mention of unions for software developers. I think this is because we're still in the phase of quick SWE salary growth powered in large part by the best performers in the field being good negotiators in salary talks with incoming foreign capital. They drive the companies' labor cost expectations up and it benefits everybody in the field. There's also a huge disparity between the SWE salaries and the rest of the society in Poland, I can imagine fears that unionization overall would flatten out those differences. Another factor is that in places where we have unions (leftover fields still highly tied to the government, e.g. teachers) they tend to not function very well in practice (not enough employee advocacy, unhealthy level of union politics affecting people's outcomes in the workplace etc.). Lastly, we're still pretty fresh to the whole capitalism game as a country, so we're scared of anything that resembles a step backwards.
SideQuark 3y ago
The US also pays significantly more. Unions change the risk calculation for employers, and the result will be changes in compensation, and often increased costs to consumers. Also unions in the US have quite often rewarded seniority over skill and effort, making them less attractive to high performers. Early on in tech I outperformed all those I started with, and was able to make significantly more as a result. My friends in union jobs (electrician, auto plant workers, ..) did not get any such opportunity to shine, and they even had to strike (i.e., no pay) when the local shops decided they should. They're not allowed to work outside jobs, they have a terrible time starting new shops, since the existing union power brokers like the control over their employment. I looked into moving to the UK, and saw how few startups in the EU become big, how hard it is in most countries there to make new businesses compared to the US, and decided against it. The EU is ~450M people, the US is ~330M. Now look at how few companies in the EU become worth 1B compared to the US. That low ratio also applies to smaller (and larger) companies. Increased benefits to workers for one facet of employment is not free. Laws adding costs per employee to an employer are not simply paid out of magic money.
- bradleyishungry 3y ago
  Where is any evidence to back this? How can you compare a VC funded tech job pay to a normal trade pay? Software pays a lot because its a good business. There is no physical product cost so labor can be higher, and margins are higher. Comparing the EU and US start up cultures and implying its somehow due to labor protections is disingenuous.
- pompino 3y ago
  You do make some very good points, but I disagree on one. >Now look at how few companies in the EU become worth 1B compared to the US. That low ratio also applies to smaller (and larger) companies. Money is power/control, and not having a concentration of wealth is a good thing for society. Granted many of the ultra wealthy also support giving away their wealth - but (IMHO) the Benevolent dictator model for social change is indicative of a failure of government. I think there is wastage of allocated capital both when its done by elected officials and also with the ultra wealthy.
burnerburnson 3y ago
Google has a union. It costs thousands of dollars per year to join and primarily focuses on political issues like lobbying management not to pursue contracts with the US military. And even if they had a good union, I fail to see how it would have prevented this.
infecto 3y ago
I don't think its so much the industry as the geography. It is all about tradeoffs and I don't think there is a clear answer as to what the better way is. I am in the US and to me the American dream is the selling point here. While I don't think the American dream is as easy as it was decades ago, I do think its still very much a possibility when I see the number of immigrants that come either as skilled workers or labor and can really lift themselves up. I am not European but my impression is that lots of the EU advertises itself as stable. I personally have no interest in joining a union. I don't think companies are my friend but I also know that it is bad to become complacent which I find a lot of lifers at big companies can become. I am not suggesting you need to be working 90 hour weeks but I do think a lot of individuals, including engineers, fall into the trap of doing one thing well and nothing else and stick into a single role for such a time that they lose plasticity. The employee - employer relationship is not a war against each other but a market balance, I need to be adding incremental value and the employer needs to be recognizing it and we are left to negotiate the terms.
amadvance 3y ago
Well, unions tend to average the outcome. But IT positions, being on the top side of the employee distribution, can typically obtain more. I can give you a real-world example. Our company (Italy) office was relocated, and unions entered negotiations to obtain three days of remote work for the entire personnel. However, I and others refused to sign the agreement because, with more negotiation power, our target was full remote work. However, in doing so, we were undermining the union positions, which made them unhappy. Fortunately, things ended well; all personnel got the three days, and a few other people were granted full remote work.
m0llusk 3y ago
In Europe unions negotiate with company leaders to make deals that help businesses negotiate market conditions. In the US unions enable workers to gang up on management in order to increase pay. The words are similar, but the structures, operations, and goals involved are all completely different.
rc_kas 3y ago
In the past Software Engineers never needed unions. We were just in super high demand at all times and we could name our price. Yeah things have changed. It may be time for Software Engineers to unionize.
pie420 3y ago
Because engineers in america earn way, way more than european ones. Would you rather have a union or an extra $100k in salary?

RedShift1 3y ago

Indoctrinated that unions are communism and/or result in worse working conditions and wages.

teitoklien 3y ago

You add unions in tech, and then wonder why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low.

baq 3y ago
Unions are for employees what HR is for companies and I don't see companies doing everything that's legal and some things which are blatantly illegal to prevent themselves from having HR departments
oblio 3y ago
There are basically no unions in tech in Europe. The countries where tech workers are dominated by tech unions can be counted on one hand, and they're probably the Nordic ones. Germany doesn't really have tech unions and for sure they don't dominate the tech scene. France, neither, Eastern Europe (all of them), don't, Southern Europe, not that I know of. Salaries are still low.
yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
> dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low I don't think they are. I think salaries in the US are astronomical, and it boggles the mind how in California a 22 year old React nerd can command a salary five times higher than, say, a teacher. It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine. Where do you put the sofa? For locals who inherited and apartment somewhere in Stockholm or Berlin, or have been living in rent-controlled apartment for 20 years, sure, 50k after-tax is fine-ish. What about expats who didn't inherit a 500k Euro apartment from their late grandma?
  - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
    You can comfortably rent an apartment in most of Europe at market rates on an €80k salary.
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      Define "comfortably". In EU cities with developed IT job markets (Munich, Stockholm, Paris, etc.) you will be spending half of more of your after tax salary just on rent. And you won't be able to afford to live there anymore after you retire.
      - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
        Warsaw is a counterpoint to that, for example. It has a developed IT job market, and as a senior software developer you'd likely be spending ~20% of your salary on rent. Europe is more than just the few most expensive cities.
        caskstrength 3y ago
        Oh, I'm from eastern Europe myself and of course you can have quite comfortable life there for 80k gross. The counterpoint to that is that 80k is not nearly close to average salary of a person "developing web sites from their sofa" in that region.
        3y ago
collyw 3y ago
Nah, Spain has crap salaries, and I have never heard of unions here.
badgersnake 3y ago
Unions are pretty rare in tech in the UK also. I don’t think that’s the reason.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  That's not true I'm afraid. UTAW and CWU specifically are unions for tech workers in the UK. At big companies especially, like BT, a sizable proportion of the workforce is unionised.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I think they were the exception, the lay offs are likely execs realizing they can get the same or better by hiring someone remotely in a developing country to do the work. Not saying this is a better outcome for anyone specifically, but surely it's compelling?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

code51 3y ago

Most probably because they think unions would standardize salaries and eliminate outlier FAANG compensation packages. Everybody thinks they are special and would get that outlier compensation after all. An idea which is not so battle-tested as we see.

danpalmer 3y ago
Yeah the union I'm a part of said this was the major thing that people don't like at tech companies, and they explicitly say that their approach is not the same with other industries, and that they are fully on board with things like performance based compensation and keeping up with market rates.

resolutebat 3y ago

In the US, when you say "labor union", people think of a factory worker standing in a picket line outside some dinosaur car assembly plant in Flint, Michigan that's about to close anyway. The media has very successfully demonized unions, and many skilled workers believe the company line that unions drive down average wages, make it impossible to fire useless people, charge heavy membership fees, etc.

typedef_struct 3y ago
I usually think actors, writers, athletes, doctors, lawyers.
- whstl 3y ago
  Maybe it's a marketing issues. Actors and other have "Guilds", lawyers have a "Bar"... (sure the other two you mentioned have unions but...)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - fireflash38 3y ago
    100% Agreed, and if we can combine that with some apprenticeships and minimum quifications for membership, I'm all in. Just name it like something you'd find from DnD.
    - trashtester 3y ago
      Except in real medieval Europe, guilds and apprenticeships were not about thieves and wizards, but instead smiths, carpenters and bricklayers.
      - whstl 3y ago
        Well, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic... and at the time this was as advanced as you get!

johannes1234321 3y ago

I don't think they are that common in tech in Europe/Germany as well. SWEs are used to being in a good negotiation position and not in need for collective bargain. My employer has a works council, but no union representation. That council is mostly occupied with dealing with compensation (provisions, product assignments, ...) of sales people, who make the largest group, thus most votes. SWE needs aren't seen.

trashtester 3y ago

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

madeofpalk 3y ago
It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.
- trashtester 3y ago
  Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.
    - 3y ago

rmvt 3y ago

they are the norm but not on the tech world. in my 10+ years working in europe (tech) i've never once met someone that was part of a union. i've had this discussion with my manager recently and you can see that people are starting to become aware (of unions) and see the need, after years of feeling untouchable. it's still very early though.

whiplash451 3y ago

In Europe, unions can have devastating effects by ruining the relationships between the leadership and the rank-and-file. We are stuck in a self-reinforcing feedback loop where unions represent a very small portion of the employees therefore most employees avoid being associated with unions because it makes you look like an activist.

intexpress 3y ago
Google leadership has been doing a thorough job at ruining the relationships between leadership and the rank-and-file
- whiplash451 3y ago
  My comment was about what is happening in Europe, not in the US.

lgkk 3y ago

Unions kill innovation, at least in US. And 10-20% of people do the actual work so 80-90% can have the time to complain nonstop while making 400k plus. As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac. On the other hand almost everyone in the world uses something made by American corporations.

myspy 3y ago
Maybe in the US, but that's a problem how you unionize.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac. Keep in mind Europe exports more to the world market than America does (and more of them are goods versus services). Like yeah, if you live in the US you probably use more American-made tools - that is not true for the rest of the world. Just looking around my kitchen now - my knives are made in Germany; my coffee grinder in Norway; my toaster in the UK. Then it's mostly made in China (air fryer, microwave, kettle, pressure cooker). The coffee roaster I have packed away is made in South Korea; the 3D printer on the kitchen table is made in Czechia. I don't think I own a single kitchen tool or appliance made in the US. EDIT: Actually, yeah I've got an Aeropress made in the US.

mrtksn 3y ago

There's this phenomenon where employees earning higher than their friends and family OR at least doing work in a clean and safe environment tend to believe that they are not workers and they oppose regulations and unions because they feel like its beneath them. At the company of a friend of mine, the white collar employees do charity events for the blue colar ones and while the blue colar ones participate on labour day events, the white collar ones are too cool to be with them. But when the actual non-workers(the true elite) feel like they can make more money by laying off some white collar workers, the cool white collars go through the exact same process as the blue collar ones they chipped in for. Also, these are not even high earning white collars, they just happen to work in a pleasant environment. Many blue collar workers make more money in comparison to white them and are closer to the non-workers since they can actually do highly paid short term contract work. There's a strong cognitive dissonance going on among white collar workers, having trouble to process the signals on if they are the cool elite or the working class. In Europe, this is not as strong because of the unions and regulations pushing all workers to earn more less the same and the work environments are safe and clean. In places outside of EU there can be workers which are 10x or 100x beter off than those at the bottom because the top can be higher but usually the bottom is also much lower and this gets the better off ones very confused.

justanorherhack 3y ago
Nope. This is laughably out of touch -" I don't understand how certain people don't think like I do so they must be irrational." If unions were structured differently, there would be more incentives. People at large, in group form are much more rationale then academics want to give credit, they are simply following the incentives in their life and attempting to do what's best for themselves. Unions in the US are not very incentivising. In the us, the way laws are written, unions are a political entity and basically from inception are in bed with the government. This creates a mismatch of incentives as the union is motivated to operate politically and this is reflected internally because that's how power is derived externally and thus internally. This creates a lot of odd things like the local foreman who manages the house is doing so because he has been around for 20 years or because he is friends with the guy who has been around for 20 years or because he bought in with millions to be that guy not because they are the right people for the job. Because of these legal protections and structures unions don't have to compete against other unions and they don't have to compete for the workers membership either. For example the IATSE gets a cut of your work if you work in the industry because that's legally mandated even if you aren't a member. This encourages unions to become bloated, and self serving and it's not immediately clear their value add. Just like elsewhere in society top down structures begin to appear where a few people at the top of the union get most of the pie. Workers are hesitate to involve themselves with unions here because they are yielding agency to a political machine in a fairly permanent way. Don't forget some of the cons and headlines around unions here either. Some of the unions using violence, like the teamsters, here to gain power. Teachers unions trying to keep bloated headcounts in empty (by half) schools in Chicago nearly bankrupting the city. Police unions protecting their members despite obvious misconduct. Lots of police/fireman/city unions keep garenteeing investment return rates that aren't in line with the market that eventually bankrupt the city. If the legal freedom and incentives were there people would do it, but this system is by design. I am a soft engineer but have remained a iatse card holder.

laurels-marts 3y ago

As a European I'm curious which unions and industries are you talking about? I've been working tech or tech-adjacent jobs my entire life here and I've never been in a union nor do I know any friends (developers / designers) that are in a union. And I'm going to conferences and meetups on a regular. I'm not saying unions don't exist (probably more so in certain industries), but for devs to be in a union in Europe? Never heard of it.

eloisant 3y ago
We need to stop talking about "Europe" in general for things as country-specific as labor laws and unions.
Snild 3y ago
"Betriebsrat" sounds German to me, so possibly Germany? And definitely Sweden. Many (most?) of my software engineer colleagues are members of either the engineering-specific "Sveriges Ingenjörer" or generic white-collar "Unionen" union.
- n_ary 3y ago
  > “Betriebsrat" sounds German to me, so possibly Germany? I am in Germany and I never heard of any union for Devs, not even large firms having any specific ones for Devs. My colleagues frequently discuss about unionizing but there are huge pay disparity hence most often it is hard to get everyone on board sadly. Most unions are intended for craftsmen, minijobs, public transports and such. There are some small employers covered by famous IG Metall tariff but that is not the norm. I know that likes of Airbus has some kind of union that covers most of the departments and hence pays insane salary but that is something I heard from friends of people who work there, so I can’t assure accuracy. There might be unions but that is not the norm except some dinosaurs.
kevsim 3y ago
I believe here in Norway it's about 50% of devs that are in the technical unions.
speedgoose 3y ago

odiroot 3y ago

My only experience dealing with an union as a SWE, in Germany at that, has been a negative one. It shaped my opinion on the topic.

lobsterthief 3y ago
What about it was negative?
- odiroot 3y ago
  They didn't want me to negotiate my offer, after I went through the whole interview process. Passed the message through my prospective boss: "take it or leave it, you can't have it better than people already at the company".
  - pbmonster 3y ago
    Yeah, salary negotiations in the context of a union contract is a specific skill. Knowing the system is absolutely essential. The way to go would have been to communicate to your prospective boss that he needs to create a position in a higher compensation tier, or a position outside the union contract. If they want you badly enough, both are possibilities. Especially position outside the union contract are very common once you're a senior/principal engineer. If it's only a small bump you want (not an entire compensation tier), telling your prospective boss that he needs to take your CV and convince HR that this means you have 15 years of relevant experience will also work - this will get you a high compensation level within your tier.

jokethrowaway 3y ago

I've never heard of anyone using unions in software in europe. Maybe something popular in just one country? The problem with unions is that if you are a top performer it's harder to get promoted, if you're crap it's harder to get rid of you. Overall it's great for non productive people who can pay a little and coast, great for everyone else. I can understand unions for low paid jobs the should be done by machines (eg. factory workers) but it doesn't make sense for knowledge work where performance has huge impact. Oh and they want money to do that.

bitcharmer 3y ago

Because in the US of A anything that's not aligned with maximising shareholder value is communism.

redleader55 3y ago

Because a big tech company will think twice before opening o position in Europe and will consider not the impact of that position could bring, but how hard is to fire someone from that position. Some of the people targeted by the last year's lay-offs were still employed one year later and the company couldn't do anything for stupid legal reasons, like not already having a union to negotiate for 1 person. Being in a limbo for 1 year, not being able to do anything except quit and loose any potential layoff compensation package, but neither able to work for the company, nor interview and find a new job is horrible for everyone involved. US restarted hiring quickly after the layoffs, but EU has still a hiring freeze in several FAANGS.

ur-whale 3y ago

> Why not in the US? How many large tech. companies has Europe produced ? Why would (or even: could) anyone start/build a cutting-edge tech. company in Europe given the hell that labor laws are over there ? Labor laws in Europe are a giant hindrance to economic growth. People in most European countries have made a political choice: safety and stagnation over wealth and growth. That's their choice, fine, they're free to do as they please in their own house. But when you make a choice, you can't ignore the consequences of these choices. That's why "not in the US": Different political choices, betting on growth, agility, innovation, running fast, and yes -- ooooh, what a terrible thing -- taking risks, and among others that employment may come and go because the world is not a static place.

eloisant 3y ago
It has nothing to do with labor laws, it's more about lack of investors. Many tech companies started in Europe, got successful then moved to US because they could not longer find big enough investors in Europe. Google only did layoffs very recently so I don't see how be able to fire people at will helped them grow.
- ur-whale 3y ago
  > it's more about lack of investors. And why would you say, aren't there any large investors? If the labor market conditions were good (and taxes, and work ethics, and ... the list is very long), the investors would come, even from far away, believe me. Money can move around the world very fast these days.
_pferreir_ 3y ago
Wow, that's a very opinionated take, to say the least. Especially when by Europe we mean three dozen countries or so, all of them with their own history, policies and laws. A little bit more nuance would help.

paweladamczuk 3y ago

In Poland most people scoff at any mention of unions for software developers. I think this is because we're still in the phase of quick SWE salary growth powered in large part by the best performers in the field being good negotiators in salary talks with incoming foreign capital. They drive the companies' labor cost expectations up and it benefits everybody in the field. There's also a huge disparity between the SWE salaries and the rest of the society in Poland, I can imagine fears that unionization overall would flatten out those differences. Another factor is that in places where we have unions (leftover fields still highly tied to the government, e.g. teachers) they tend to not function very well in practice (not enough employee advocacy, unhealthy level of union politics affecting people's outcomes in the workplace etc.). Lastly, we're still pretty fresh to the whole capitalism game as a country, so we're scared of anything that resembles a step backwards.

SideQuark 3y ago

The US also pays significantly more. Unions change the risk calculation for employers, and the result will be changes in compensation, and often increased costs to consumers. Also unions in the US have quite often rewarded seniority over skill and effort, making them less attractive to high performers. Early on in tech I outperformed all those I started with, and was able to make significantly more as a result. My friends in union jobs (electrician, auto plant workers, ..) did not get any such opportunity to shine, and they even had to strike (i.e., no pay) when the local shops decided they should. They're not allowed to work outside jobs, they have a terrible time starting new shops, since the existing union power brokers like the control over their employment. I looked into moving to the UK, and saw how few startups in the EU become big, how hard it is in most countries there to make new businesses compared to the US, and decided against it. The EU is ~450M people, the US is ~330M. Now look at how few companies in the EU become worth 1B compared to the US. That low ratio also applies to smaller (and larger) companies. Increased benefits to workers for one facet of employment is not free. Laws adding costs per employee to an employer are not simply paid out of magic money.

bradleyishungry 3y ago
Where is any evidence to back this? How can you compare a VC funded tech job pay to a normal trade pay? Software pays a lot because its a good business. There is no physical product cost so labor can be higher, and margins are higher. Comparing the EU and US start up cultures and implying its somehow due to labor protections is disingenuous.
pompino 3y ago
You do make some very good points, but I disagree on one. >Now look at how few companies in the EU become worth 1B compared to the US. That low ratio also applies to smaller (and larger) companies. Money is power/control, and not having a concentration of wealth is a good thing for society. Granted many of the ultra wealthy also support giving away their wealth - but (IMHO) the Benevolent dictator model for social change is indicative of a failure of government. I think there is wastage of allocated capital both when its done by elected officials and also with the ultra wealthy.

burnerburnson 3y ago

Google has a union. It costs thousands of dollars per year to join and primarily focuses on political issues like lobbying management not to pursue contracts with the US military. And even if they had a good union, I fail to see how it would have prevented this.

infecto 3y ago

I don't think its so much the industry as the geography. It is all about tradeoffs and I don't think there is a clear answer as to what the better way is. I am in the US and to me the American dream is the selling point here. While I don't think the American dream is as easy as it was decades ago, I do think its still very much a possibility when I see the number of immigrants that come either as skilled workers or labor and can really lift themselves up. I am not European but my impression is that lots of the EU advertises itself as stable. I personally have no interest in joining a union. I don't think companies are my friend but I also know that it is bad to become complacent which I find a lot of lifers at big companies can become. I am not suggesting you need to be working 90 hour weeks but I do think a lot of individuals, including engineers, fall into the trap of doing one thing well and nothing else and stick into a single role for such a time that they lose plasticity. The employee - employer relationship is not a war against each other but a market balance, I need to be adding incremental value and the employer needs to be recognizing it and we are left to negotiate the terms.

amadvance 3y ago

Well, unions tend to average the outcome. But IT positions, being on the top side of the employee distribution, can typically obtain more. I can give you a real-world example. Our company (Italy) office was relocated, and unions entered negotiations to obtain three days of remote work for the entire personnel. However, I and others refused to sign the agreement because, with more negotiation power, our target was full remote work. However, in doing so, we were undermining the union positions, which made them unhappy. Fortunately, things ended well; all personnel got the three days, and a few other people were granted full remote work.

m0llusk 3y ago

In Europe unions negotiate with company leaders to make deals that help businesses negotiate market conditions. In the US unions enable workers to gang up on management in order to increase pay. The words are similar, but the structures, operations, and goals involved are all completely different.

rc_kas 3y ago

In the past Software Engineers never needed unions. We were just in super high demand at all times and we could name our price. Yeah things have changed. It may be time for Software Engineers to unionize.

pie420 3y ago

Because engineers in america earn way, way more than european ones. Would you rather have a union or an extra $100k in salary?