4 ms·

Many of the largest software projects in history have been implemented by remote workers. Like the Linux kernel. But if you require to read people's reactions

Many of the largest software projects in history have been implemented by remote workers. Like the Linux kernel. But if you require to read people's reactions and body language and try to figure out if they are telling the truth, or brag about your socioeconomic status or appearance, or if you need to assert dominance over others, or do social engineering like mirroring other's movements, then face to face is perhaps useful. To me, when someone says "there is no replacement for face to face communication", what that usually means is "we distrust people here". I dislike offices, they are cesspools of misery, dominance and fake smiles. Long live remote work.

worewood 3y ago
I agree with you, except the last sentence, which may vary from place to place. My office is very friendly and people have very good humour. Which is good for socializing but for work, it's tough because so many interruptions and we waste a lot of time "talking about the weather". I am way more productive working at home.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  They have good humor, always want to have coffee and lunch, and are your best friends forever. Until you change jobs and you never hear from them again.
  - azemetre 3y ago
    I mean that’s just life. Why is this a bad thing? You go through periods of time and when that chapter ends you move onto the next chapter. Expecting a band of misfits to stick together for 40 years is what is atypical. When I was in college I had a great group of friends but after we all graduated we went in completely different directions, industries, and live vastly different lives. The friendship was perfect in the moment but now I’m in a new one.
    - 29athrowaway 3y ago
      Better cultivate meaningful relationships instead of reinforcing a sick institution like the fake office friendship. Your family, friends, neighbors.
      - azemetre 3y ago
        If you move, are you upset your neighbors don't travel with you? I sincerely don't understand the point you were making. Obviously having a network of family and friends matters too, but your children will grow up and leave. Your friends might leave too. Do you think those relations were a waste of time as well. Most things are ephemeral in a human lifetime. That's why it's better to appreciate what you have now, in the moment; than lamenting something in the past.
        29athrowaway 3y ago
        I still hang out with neighbors I had decades ago.
SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
You're summing up a pretty wide spectrum of things as "distrust". If a junior engineer says they understand what I'm asking for and will deliver it in 2 weeks, but actually they don't fully understand and will deliver half of it in 3 weeks, I wouldn't typically characterize that as them lying or being untrustworthy. But it's a problem that's a lot easier to detect and solve in person. (It's also, not coincidentally, a problem that Linux kernel devs generally don't need to worry about - there's no Linux Dev Inc. whose next big contract will fall through if a project doesn't finish on time.)
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  "I give deadlines to junior engineers who don't understand things." Ding, ding, ding! You have won the toxic bingo. If you work with 2 week deadlines you've lost control of your project. Like in Tetris.
  - SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
    It's quite rare to have the degree of control you're envisioning over a project. Most software teams are building products to sell to customers, and most customers aren't going to accept "IDK whenever we're done" as an expected delivery date. Companies can and should provide some degree of wiggle room, but it's not realistic to expect that you can avoid ever thinking about how long a task is going to take.
    - 29athrowaway 3y ago
      That sounds like you are totally winning! If everything is urgent, that is a strong symptom that you completely lost control and you should not be running a project. The value you add as a decision maker is making decisions that mitigate the risk of being in a scenario where everything is urgent, that is, a crisis. If you are constantly in crisis mode running for your life because you failed catastrophically.
      - SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
digging 3y ago
This is an excessively bitter take IMO. I'm saying this as a happy remote worker: office interactions are actually a good thing, provided you've actually built a good team. I miss many of my previous coworkers because we actually had fun collaborating, and we talked about interesting non-work topics. I enjoyed going to lunch with many of them because they were interesting people. And I recognize that such positions are uncommon and so I'm extremely picky abut new roles, but I know for a fact that it's not true to say in-office interactions are all deception and game-theorying.

worewood 3y ago

I agree with you, except the last sentence, which may vary from place to place. My office is very friendly and people have very good humour. Which is good for socializing but for work, it's tough because so many interruptions and we waste a lot of time "talking about the weather". I am way more productive working at home.

29athrowaway 3y ago
They have good humor, always want to have coffee and lunch, and are your best friends forever. Until you change jobs and you never hear from them again.
- azemetre 3y ago
  I mean that’s just life. Why is this a bad thing? You go through periods of time and when that chapter ends you move onto the next chapter. Expecting a band of misfits to stick together for 40 years is what is atypical. When I was in college I had a great group of friends but after we all graduated we went in completely different directions, industries, and live vastly different lives. The friendship was perfect in the moment but now I’m in a new one.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago
    Better cultivate meaningful relationships instead of reinforcing a sick institution like the fake office friendship. Your family, friends, neighbors.
    - azemetre 3y ago
      If you move, are you upset your neighbors don't travel with you? I sincerely don't understand the point you were making. Obviously having a network of family and friends matters too, but your children will grow up and leave. Your friends might leave too. Do you think those relations were a waste of time as well. Most things are ephemeral in a human lifetime. That's why it's better to appreciate what you have now, in the moment; than lamenting something in the past.
      - 29athrowaway 3y ago
        I still hang out with neighbors I had decades ago.

SpicyLemonZest 3y ago

You're summing up a pretty wide spectrum of things as "distrust". If a junior engineer says they understand what I'm asking for and will deliver it in 2 weeks, but actually they don't fully understand and will deliver half of it in 3 weeks, I wouldn't typically characterize that as them lying or being untrustworthy. But it's a problem that's a lot easier to detect and solve in person. (It's also, not coincidentally, a problem that Linux kernel devs generally don't need to worry about - there's no Linux Dev Inc. whose next big contract will fall through if a project doesn't finish on time.)

29athrowaway 3y ago
"I give deadlines to junior engineers who don't understand things." Ding, ding, ding! You have won the toxic bingo. If you work with 2 week deadlines you've lost control of your project. Like in Tetris.
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  It's quite rare to have the degree of control you're envisioning over a project. Most software teams are building products to sell to customers, and most customers aren't going to accept "IDK whenever we're done" as an expected delivery date. Companies can and should provide some degree of wiggle room, but it's not realistic to expect that you can avoid ever thinking about how long a task is going to take.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago
    That sounds like you are totally winning! If everything is urgent, that is a strong symptom that you completely lost control and you should not be running a project. The value you add as a decision maker is making decisions that mitigate the risk of being in a scenario where everything is urgent, that is, a crisis. If you are constantly in crisis mode running for your life because you failed catastrophically.
    - SpicyLemonZest 3y ago

digging 3y ago

This is an excessively bitter take IMO. I'm saying this as a happy remote worker: office interactions are actually a good thing, provided you've actually built a good team. I miss many of my previous coworkers because we actually had fun collaborating, and we talked about interesting non-work topics. I enjoyed going to lunch with many of them because they were interesting people. And I recognize that such positions are uncommon and so I'm extremely picky abut new roles, but I know for a fact that it's not true to say in-office interactions are all deception and game-theorying.