7 ms·

I don't understand this fascination with central offices. We live in the year 2024. We should be able to look at our workforce, find small offices, and have h

I don't understand this fascination with central offices. We live in the year 2024. We should be able to look at our workforce, find small offices, and have hub and spoke networks of offices - and work from home as a fallback. Rent a condo, do a communal office, if you want more close collaboration - shuffle your teams to colocate them - not force them into 1hr commutes into a fucking empty office. Our infrastructure is now ephemeral on the cloud - why can't we be more flexible with our work situation?

paulddraper 3y ago
People collaborate easier in person. Travel is a downside.
- OtomotO 3y ago
  Other downside: way more coffee breaks and private discussions.
  - robertbalent 3y ago
    > way more coffee breaks That’s upside.
  - kamilafsar 3y ago
    That’s not a downside. That’s part of building and being a team. We’re human, not machines. If you hire the right people, they’ll know when to have a laugh and when to work their ass off.
    - thayne 3y ago
      That very much depends on the person. It might be an upside for you but a downside for me.
    - OtomotO 3y ago
      I love humans, just not all of them and I prefer separating my private life from my work life
  - passwordoops 3y ago
    Private discussions happen way more often remote in my experience
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > and private discussions. I joined a company that went from in-person to remote and the number of private discussions and politics exploded. Something about going remote and exchanging faces for screen names was like pouring gasoline on the fire for company politics. The number of private Slack channels exploded and one group even moved to their own private (unofficial) Slack because they wanted a private space where other people couldn't accidentally be invited to their discussions. It was wild.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  Many of the largest software projects in history have been implemented by remote workers. Like the Linux kernel. But if you require to read people's reactions and body language and try to figure out if they are telling the truth, or brag about your socioeconomic status or appearance, or if you need to assert dominance over others, or do social engineering like mirroring other's movements, then face to face is perhaps useful. To me, when someone says "there is no replacement for face to face communication", what that usually means is "we distrust people here". I dislike offices, they are cesspools of misery, dominance and fake smiles. Long live remote work.
  - worewood 3y ago
    I agree with you, except the last sentence, which may vary from place to place. My office is very friendly and people have very good humour. Which is good for socializing but for work, it's tough because so many interruptions and we waste a lot of time "talking about the weather". I am way more productive working at home.
    - 29athrowaway 3y ago
      They have good humor, always want to have coffee and lunch, and are your best friends forever. Until you change jobs and you never hear from them again.
      - azemetre 3y ago
        I mean that’s just life. Why is this a bad thing? You go through periods of time and when that chapter ends you move onto the next chapter. Expecting a band of misfits to stick together for 40 years is what is atypical. When I was in college I had a great group of friends but after we all graduated we went in completely different directions, industries, and live vastly different lives. The friendship was perfect in the moment but now I’m in a new one.
        29athrowaway 3y ago
        Better cultivate meaningful relationships instead of reinforcing a sick institution like the fake office friendship. Your family, friends, neighbors.
- pacomerh 3y ago
  I don't collaborate better in person.
  - NegativeK 3y ago
    I do, probably because of my particular flavor of strong introversion. What's the solution to different people benefiting from different work styles?
    - tobyjsullivan 3y ago
      People should find company cultures that match their work styles. That's the best way to allow people with similar work styles to work together. There can never be one true corporate policy to rule them all. That said, I agree with most of the comments here. Hybrid is just bad. A company needs to pick on-site or remote.
- irrational 3y ago
  Except, some jobs really really don't require much if any collaboration. We've been having to come back into the office since last September. In all that time, I've only spoken to another person a single time. Literally one hour in one day in the past 5 months. All meetings are still over zoom and when I'm not in a meeting, I just find some place in the building to sit and work. Except many people still weren't coming in since september and now they have cracked down on it and said people must be in the office and they are checking badge check-ins and the ip address of where our work laptops are being used to see if they are on the campus network or not. The result is tons of people are here now, but there isn't room for them. Before the pandemic, the company started getting rid of cubicles and moving to rooms full of desks and you just find somewhere to sit. But they don't have enough places to sit for everyone so if you don't get here early, you just end up sitting on the floor or wandering around. It is crazy how much lost productivity we are experiencing.
  - mike_hock 3y ago
    > sitting on the floor What the fuck?!
    - irrational 3y ago
      HR frowns on that.
      - QuiDortDine 3y ago
        Yeah I'm about to be harmed by my working conditions
  - gverrilla 3y ago
    I had a friend reporting a similar situation in the big consultancy firm he works for. There would be more workers than available seats. He said they would do it to make people get to the office BEFORE their working hours. Dark patterns all around.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Buddy, why on Earth are you still working there?
- Salgat 3y ago
  Depends on the work being done. In my experience in-person collaboration just means the loudest most stubborn person gets their way and it's difficult to pause things to fact-check and research while decisions are being made. And honestly, fighting with this behavior is above my pay grade.
garrickvanburen 3y ago
Fully agree. My weekly email rant was on how anti-customer offices are. https://forstarters.substack.com/p/for-starters-13-there-are-no-customers https://forstarters.substack.com/p/for-starters-13-there-are...
iwontberude 3y ago
I wish they would stop trying to force us into shared working spaces. They can make me work from home, a close office, a far office... I don't care. Just give me a private office and I will do my best work. At home, I don't have room for a private office, so they would need to relocate me and cover a portion of the rent for their office. I am not a contractor. I am an employee. I don't control any of my working conditions and I shouldn't have to pay out of pocket for it.
- voidee 3y ago
  But I love distracting people and making them unproductive!
- jasonzemos 3y ago
  As an anecdote, my neighbor is a crazy asshole who started blasting music and having parties at random hours; it can be problematic for sleep and productivity. Police in California are inept at stopping this. Will the company pay to send lawyers or do I have to waste my own time and money to pick up and move my whole life for something worse to be waiting at the next rental?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    What's the theory under which the company would get involved in your housing dispute?
  - kvonhorn 3y ago
    > Police in California are inept at stopping this Former long time renter here. I had the same problem with neighbors in an adjacent apartment complex, and police couldn't do a damned thing except come out at 4 am and tell me, yep, we can hear that from the street. I mentioned the problem to the landlord. The landlord told me to report it to the public health department. I did. I never heard back from the health department, but the noise stopped within a few days, and the stereo blasting tenant and their onsite manager glared at me ever time I saw them afterwards.
- thayne 3y ago
vlaxx 3y ago
> I don't understand this fascination with central offices. It's not about you, it's about them. What they control, what they own, what they have. They are in love with the feeling of dominance in a room full of people. They love to see the minions that they command. Its about being able to visualize and understand the domain that they control.
- jay_kyburz 3y ago
  I wouldn't want to work in a company with strong "us" and "them" culture. If I don't feel everybody is working towards the same goals and is receiving a fair piece of the pie I would go somewhere else. Running your own company for a while really helps see both sides of the equation.
  - vlaxx 3y ago
    > I wouldn't want to work in a company with strong "us" and "them" culture. That seems like a pipe dream to me. Money and power often to change people for the worse.
    - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
      I don't even understand how somebody can seriously think that there is no "us" vs "them" divide in a company. This culture is everywhere, just some places are better at hiding it.
jacobsenscott 3y ago
The current crop of execs grew up watching Star Trek TNG - a flying office building where everyone lives for their work and you could sound a klaxon and everyone scrambles to the conference room. Also everyone loves and is willing to die for the leader. That's all you need to know.
- pramsey 3y ago
  Crisis! Head to the conference room!
Dibes 3y ago
Our company has exactly this and I think it works really well! We are a small engineering team spread out across 4 states with tiny offices/hubs for those that want to get together. I work with a friend in town and we go to an office 3 days a week on the same days and I love the schedule.
pm90 3y ago
Taking the most generous interpretation of this desire: It might just be because management is just not used to fully remote. Most workplaces aren’t healthy and satisfying, they’re somewhat toxic and in many cases incredibly so. The adaptable managers that have a consensus based management style find a way; those that are used to doing things by decree find themselves ineffective in controlling the direction of their reports. Literally the number one priority of leadership is to control the direction of the team; if they’re unable to do so there’s not much else for them to do. Any company seriously considering adapting to the new environment should consider some kind of retraining program for their managers and have a support system that will help them adapt.
- lazide 3y ago
  If you think those toxic managers are going to get less toxic when they don’t need to worry about death stares from everyone if everyone sees them doing toxic things to people in person, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. And those folks aren’t like that because of lack of training, generally.
packetlost 3y ago
As someone operating in exactly this manner, it sucks for the same reasons that hybrid sucks. Timezones, teleconferencing, shipping between offices, travel between offices, conversations that happen in one office not making it to the other office, etc.

paulddraper 3y ago

People collaborate easier in person. Travel is a downside.

OtomotO 3y ago
Other downside: way more coffee breaks and private discussions.
- robertbalent 3y ago
  > way more coffee breaks That’s upside.
- kamilafsar 3y ago
  That’s not a downside. That’s part of building and being a team. We’re human, not machines. If you hire the right people, they’ll know when to have a laugh and when to work their ass off.
  - thayne 3y ago
    That very much depends on the person. It might be an upside for you but a downside for me.
  - OtomotO 3y ago
    I love humans, just not all of them and I prefer separating my private life from my work life
- passwordoops 3y ago
  Private discussions happen way more often remote in my experience
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > and private discussions. I joined a company that went from in-person to remote and the number of private discussions and politics exploded. Something about going remote and exchanging faces for screen names was like pouring gasoline on the fire for company politics. The number of private Slack channels exploded and one group even moved to their own private (unofficial) Slack because they wanted a private space where other people couldn't accidentally be invited to their discussions. It was wild.
29athrowaway 3y ago
Many of the largest software projects in history have been implemented by remote workers. Like the Linux kernel. But if you require to read people's reactions and body language and try to figure out if they are telling the truth, or brag about your socioeconomic status or appearance, or if you need to assert dominance over others, or do social engineering like mirroring other's movements, then face to face is perhaps useful. To me, when someone says "there is no replacement for face to face communication", what that usually means is "we distrust people here". I dislike offices, they are cesspools of misery, dominance and fake smiles. Long live remote work.
- worewood 3y ago
  I agree with you, except the last sentence, which may vary from place to place. My office is very friendly and people have very good humour. Which is good for socializing but for work, it's tough because so many interruptions and we waste a lot of time "talking about the weather". I am way more productive working at home.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago
    They have good humor, always want to have coffee and lunch, and are your best friends forever. Until you change jobs and you never hear from them again.
    - azemetre 3y ago
      I mean that’s just life. Why is this a bad thing? You go through periods of time and when that chapter ends you move onto the next chapter. Expecting a band of misfits to stick together for 40 years is what is atypical. When I was in college I had a great group of friends but after we all graduated we went in completely different directions, industries, and live vastly different lives. The friendship was perfect in the moment but now I’m in a new one.
      - 29athrowaway 3y ago
        Better cultivate meaningful relationships instead of reinforcing a sick institution like the fake office friendship. Your family, friends, neighbors.
pacomerh 3y ago
I don't collaborate better in person.
- NegativeK 3y ago
  I do, probably because of my particular flavor of strong introversion. What's the solution to different people benefiting from different work styles?
  - tobyjsullivan 3y ago
    People should find company cultures that match their work styles. That's the best way to allow people with similar work styles to work together. There can never be one true corporate policy to rule them all. That said, I agree with most of the comments here. Hybrid is just bad. A company needs to pick on-site or remote.
irrational 3y ago
Except, some jobs really really don't require much if any collaboration. We've been having to come back into the office since last September. In all that time, I've only spoken to another person a single time. Literally one hour in one day in the past 5 months. All meetings are still over zoom and when I'm not in a meeting, I just find some place in the building to sit and work. Except many people still weren't coming in since september and now they have cracked down on it and said people must be in the office and they are checking badge check-ins and the ip address of where our work laptops are being used to see if they are on the campus network or not. The result is tons of people are here now, but there isn't room for them. Before the pandemic, the company started getting rid of cubicles and moving to rooms full of desks and you just find somewhere to sit. But they don't have enough places to sit for everyone so if you don't get here early, you just end up sitting on the floor or wandering around. It is crazy how much lost productivity we are experiencing.
- mike_hock 3y ago
  > sitting on the floor What the fuck?!
  - irrational 3y ago
    HR frowns on that.
    - QuiDortDine 3y ago
      Yeah I'm about to be harmed by my working conditions
- gverrilla 3y ago
  I had a friend reporting a similar situation in the big consultancy firm he works for. There would be more workers than available seats. He said they would do it to make people get to the office BEFORE their working hours. Dark patterns all around.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Buddy, why on Earth are you still working there?
Salgat 3y ago
Depends on the work being done. In my experience in-person collaboration just means the loudest most stubborn person gets their way and it's difficult to pause things to fact-check and research while decisions are being made. And honestly, fighting with this behavior is above my pay grade.

garrickvanburen 3y ago

Fully agree. My weekly email rant was on how anti-customer offices are. https://forstarters.substack.com/p/for-starters-13-there-are-no-customers https://forstarters.substack.com/p/for-starters-13-there-are...

iwontberude 3y ago

I wish they would stop trying to force us into shared working spaces. They can make me work from home, a close office, a far office... I don't care. Just give me a private office and I will do my best work. At home, I don't have room for a private office, so they would need to relocate me and cover a portion of the rent for their office. I am not a contractor. I am an employee. I don't control any of my working conditions and I shouldn't have to pay out of pocket for it.

voidee 3y ago
But I love distracting people and making them unproductive!
jasonzemos 3y ago
As an anecdote, my neighbor is a crazy asshole who started blasting music and having parties at random hours; it can be problematic for sleep and productivity. Police in California are inept at stopping this. Will the company pay to send lawyers or do I have to waste my own time and money to pick up and move my whole life for something worse to be waiting at the next rental?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  What's the theory under which the company would get involved in your housing dispute?
- kvonhorn 3y ago
  > Police in California are inept at stopping this Former long time renter here. I had the same problem with neighbors in an adjacent apartment complex, and police couldn't do a damned thing except come out at 4 am and tell me, yep, we can hear that from the street. I mentioned the problem to the landlord. The landlord told me to report it to the public health department. I did. I never heard back from the health department, but the noise stopped within a few days, and the stereo blasting tenant and their onsite manager glared at me ever time I saw them afterwards.
thayne 3y ago

vlaxx 3y ago

> I don't understand this fascination with central offices. It's not about you, it's about them. What they control, what they own, what they have. They are in love with the feeling of dominance in a room full of people. They love to see the minions that they command. Its about being able to visualize and understand the domain that they control.

jay_kyburz 3y ago
I wouldn't want to work in a company with strong "us" and "them" culture. If I don't feel everybody is working towards the same goals and is receiving a fair piece of the pie I would go somewhere else. Running your own company for a while really helps see both sides of the equation.
- vlaxx 3y ago
  > I wouldn't want to work in a company with strong "us" and "them" culture. That seems like a pipe dream to me. Money and power often to change people for the worse.
  - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
    I don't even understand how somebody can seriously think that there is no "us" vs "them" divide in a company. This culture is everywhere, just some places are better at hiding it.

jacobsenscott 3y ago

The current crop of execs grew up watching Star Trek TNG - a flying office building where everyone lives for their work and you could sound a klaxon and everyone scrambles to the conference room. Also everyone loves and is willing to die for the leader. That's all you need to know.

pramsey 3y ago
Crisis! Head to the conference room!

Dibes 3y ago

Our company has exactly this and I think it works really well! We are a small engineering team spread out across 4 states with tiny offices/hubs for those that want to get together. I work with a friend in town and we go to an office 3 days a week on the same days and I love the schedule.

pm90 3y ago

Taking the most generous interpretation of this desire: It might just be because management is just not used to fully remote. Most workplaces aren’t healthy and satisfying, they’re somewhat toxic and in many cases incredibly so. The adaptable managers that have a consensus based management style find a way; those that are used to doing things by decree find themselves ineffective in controlling the direction of their reports. Literally the number one priority of leadership is to control the direction of the team; if they’re unable to do so there’s not much else for them to do. Any company seriously considering adapting to the new environment should consider some kind of retraining program for their managers and have a support system that will help them adapt.

lazide 3y ago
If you think those toxic managers are going to get less toxic when they don’t need to worry about death stares from everyone if everyone sees them doing toxic things to people in person, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. And those folks aren’t like that because of lack of training, generally.

packetlost 3y ago

As someone operating in exactly this manner, it sucks for the same reasons that hybrid sucks. Timezones, teleconferencing, shipping between offices, travel between offices, conversations that happen in one office not making it to the other office, etc.