6 ms·

You do not have to interact with the government or the central bank via these new technologies, the same way you do not have to interact with them via email or

by tifik 3y ago

You do not have to interact with the government or the central bank via these new technologies, the same way you do not have to interact with them via email or phone, since you always have the free option to do your business in person. Although obviously it is a much less convenient way to do so, but convenience isn't a right, and having more money is mostly about living more comfortably and conveniently (past the point at which you can cover your basic needs, which most democratic countries cover with their social systems). In democracies, the second any interaction with a public institution mandates some kind of technology, without providing an alternative, I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the second any interaction with a public institution mandates some kind of technology, without providing an alternative, I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country This is a strange assumption given it has zero historical basis and is, by and large, a modern invention.
- tifik 3y ago
  Depends on how you define 'technology'. When the government needs you to fill out a form, you can go to their office and they provide the printed form and a pen. Paper and printing are human inventions, therefor I would consider them 'technology' for purposes of this debate. That said, I know it's a bit of a leap from paper to internet access. In my country at least, I can say confidently that there is a law mandating free access to government services. At least such services that you are required by law to interact with.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > you can go to their office and they provide the printed form and a pen Getting to a government office was historically a barrier. It still is in much of the world. > there is a law mandating free access to government services To be clear, I think this is a good thing. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume it to be true.
    - tifik 3y ago
      > Getting to a government office was historically a barrier. That is a very good point, and something I did not include in my logic. Thanks for pointing that out.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        It's actually wild to see, across history, how cost of travel was used as a gating mechanism. The example that comes to mind is the Roman Tribal Assembly [1]. While on paper it was egalitarian, in practice only the elites could afford to keep criss-crossing Italy to elect low-ranking Senators. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_assembly
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    Are things like marriage licenses, driving licenses, registering land ownership, passports all free-gratis to acquire then? Which country? You can't in general attend government offices in the UK. You can't rock up with your tax return, or apply for a passport, say. You can get paper forms from the Post Office, or sent out from the gov service itself (sometimes, some are digital only) and most libraries (and some other community centres) offer help to access online services.
fragmede 3y ago
The lesser known Obama phone program got devices to 20 million Americans in order to facilitate digital interaction. https://www.obamaphone.com/ https://www.obamaphone.com/
- kube-system 3y ago
  What you're talking about is the Lifeline program, which was established in 1985 and expanded to include cell phones under the Bush administration. The changes took effect later during the Obama administration, and so it got the nickname "Obama phone" by some. But he didn't have anything to do with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(FCC_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(FCC_program) What you've linked is some unaffiliated site, the official website of the administrator of the program is here: https://www.lifelinesupport.org/ https://www.lifelinesupport.org/
  - fragmede 3y ago
    TIL, thank you!
peebeebee 3y ago
In Belgium, most (big) banks are downscaling physical servicepoints so much it sometimes is almost impossible for people to choose to do business in person. In think in 10 years you will have almost no real bank tellers anymore. That's no problem for most of the people, but I don't think that the right thing to do in the broader sense. There are lots of (technology) illiterate people that needs some kind of physical service.
- tifik 3y ago
  I agree that it would suck for tech non-savvy people, but at the same time the literacy of general population with any technology naturally improves as time passes. Of course, while there is still a big enough chunk of people that do need a require (or just prefer) a particular way of communicating, it should be generally available at a good-enough level of convenience. The key is of course to only start scaling it back at the appropriate time, at which there is so few people that they can be considered outliers (and I mean actual, statistical outliers, not 'whoever the government doesn't consider important enough'). But all of this is of course just like my opinion man. Just a very interesting topic to think about.
- simsla 3y ago
  In Belgium, I've noticed a general "de-servicing" across industries. - Bank offices (and ATMs) disappearing. - Post offices disappearing. - Customer service disappearing (phone especially) in lieu of the always useless "check our frequently asked questions / forums" - Cashiers disappearing in lieu of self checkout. I'm sure it's not just Belgium. The problem appears to be that there's no big enough incentive to service the long-tail (P90) once most day-to-day stuff can be done by yourself, usually digital. Service as collateral damage of efficiency. Should we ask the government to ensure that any company providing critical services (banking, telecommunications, distributing food) offers a minimum level of service? Because without outside incentive I only see us going further down this road.
  - imp0cat 3y ago
    It's not just Belgium, it's everywhere now. Though I must I admit I much prefer self-checkout when shopping. The queues are much faster.
lmm 3y ago
> In democracies, the second any interaction with a public institution mandates some kind of technology, without providing an alternative, I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country. When I applied for my Irish passport, the only way to inquire about the process of my application was via Twitter. (They had something that superficially looked like a contact widget on their website, but it was nonfunctional)
- tifik 3y ago
  That sounds pretty shocking. Was that during the covid lockdowns or is that just standard procedure?
  - lmm 3y ago
    It was pre-covid, although during a time of particularly high applications (post-Brexit).
- chrisbolt 3y ago
  https://www.ireland.ie/en/dfa/passports/contact-us/ https://www.ireland.ie/en/dfa/passports/contact-us/
  - lmm 3y ago
    Yeah, Twitter and the "WebChat" were the only options there when I was applying and the webchat didn't work. Glad to see they've added a phone number now.
hulitu 3y ago
> since you always have the free option to do your business in person. The free option can cost a lot. Digitalization is pushed because the government want to reduce "first level support". You get to talk to robots, for hours and then get an appointment in months.
gambiting 3y ago
>>you always have the free option to do your business in person. I guess you don't actually live in the UK then. There is nowhere to go "in person" to interact with HMRC for instance. You can still send them paper forms for most things, but the result will be saved in your online HMRC profile, so you haven't bypassed anything. >>I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country. You'd assume wrong. The argument is that all of these options are "free" so what are you complaining about. Same thing is happening with banks - branches are closing down across the country in droves, with a lot of people reporting that they now have to travel 1h+ to their nearest branch if they need to do something in person(and annoyingly banks themselves force that - you can't deposit a cheque over £500 online for instance, you have to do it in person for some idiotic reason)

by tifik 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> the second any interaction with a public institution mandates some kind of technology, without providing an alternative, I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country This is a strange assumption given it has zero historical basis and is, by and large, a modern invention.

tifik 3y ago
Depends on how you define 'technology'. When the government needs you to fill out a form, you can go to their office and they provide the printed form and a pen. Paper and printing are human inventions, therefor I would consider them 'technology' for purposes of this debate. That said, I know it's a bit of a leap from paper to internet access. In my country at least, I can say confidently that there is a law mandating free access to government services. At least such services that you are required by law to interact with.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > you can go to their office and they provide the printed form and a pen Getting to a government office was historically a barrier. It still is in much of the world. > there is a law mandating free access to government services To be clear, I think this is a good thing. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume it to be true.
  - tifik 3y ago
    > Getting to a government office was historically a barrier. That is a very good point, and something I did not include in my logic. Thanks for pointing that out.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      It's actually wild to see, across history, how cost of travel was used as a gating mechanism. The example that comes to mind is the Roman Tribal Assembly [1]. While on paper it was egalitarian, in practice only the elites could afford to keep criss-crossing Italy to elect low-ranking Senators. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_assembly
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  Are things like marriage licenses, driving licenses, registering land ownership, passports all free-gratis to acquire then? Which country? You can't in general attend government offices in the UK. You can't rock up with your tax return, or apply for a passport, say. You can get paper forms from the Post Office, or sent out from the gov service itself (sometimes, some are digital only) and most libraries (and some other community centres) offer help to access online services.

fragmede 3y ago

The lesser known Obama phone program got devices to 20 million Americans in order to facilitate digital interaction. https://www.obamaphone.com/ https://www.obamaphone.com/

kube-system 3y ago
What you're talking about is the Lifeline program, which was established in 1985 and expanded to include cell phones under the Bush administration. The changes took effect later during the Obama administration, and so it got the nickname "Obama phone" by some. But he didn't have anything to do with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(FCC_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(FCC_program) What you've linked is some unaffiliated site, the official website of the administrator of the program is here: https://www.lifelinesupport.org/ https://www.lifelinesupport.org/
- fragmede 3y ago
  TIL, thank you!

peebeebee 3y ago

In Belgium, most (big) banks are downscaling physical servicepoints so much it sometimes is almost impossible for people to choose to do business in person. In think in 10 years you will have almost no real bank tellers anymore. That's no problem for most of the people, but I don't think that the right thing to do in the broader sense. There are lots of (technology) illiterate people that needs some kind of physical service.

tifik 3y ago
I agree that it would suck for tech non-savvy people, but at the same time the literacy of general population with any technology naturally improves as time passes. Of course, while there is still a big enough chunk of people that do need a require (or just prefer) a particular way of communicating, it should be generally available at a good-enough level of convenience. The key is of course to only start scaling it back at the appropriate time, at which there is so few people that they can be considered outliers (and I mean actual, statistical outliers, not 'whoever the government doesn't consider important enough'). But all of this is of course just like my opinion man. Just a very interesting topic to think about.
simsla 3y ago
In Belgium, I've noticed a general "de-servicing" across industries. - Bank offices (and ATMs) disappearing. - Post offices disappearing. - Customer service disappearing (phone especially) in lieu of the always useless "check our frequently asked questions / forums" - Cashiers disappearing in lieu of self checkout. I'm sure it's not just Belgium. The problem appears to be that there's no big enough incentive to service the long-tail (P90) once most day-to-day stuff can be done by yourself, usually digital. Service as collateral damage of efficiency. Should we ask the government to ensure that any company providing critical services (banking, telecommunications, distributing food) offers a minimum level of service? Because without outside incentive I only see us going further down this road.
- imp0cat 3y ago
  It's not just Belgium, it's everywhere now. Though I must I admit I much prefer self-checkout when shopping. The queues are much faster.

lmm 3y ago

> In democracies, the second any interaction with a public institution mandates some kind of technology, without providing an alternative, I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country. When I applied for my Irish passport, the only way to inquire about the process of my application was via Twitter. (They had something that superficially looked like a contact widget on their website, but it was nonfunctional)

tifik 3y ago
That sounds pretty shocking. Was that during the covid lockdowns or is that just standard procedure?
- lmm 3y ago
  It was pre-covid, although during a time of particularly high applications (post-Brexit).
chrisbolt 3y ago
https://www.ireland.ie/en/dfa/passports/contact-us/ https://www.ireland.ie/en/dfa/passports/contact-us/
- lmm 3y ago
  Yeah, Twitter and the "WebChat" were the only options there when I was applying and the webchat didn't work. Glad to see they've added a phone number now.

hulitu 3y ago

> since you always have the free option to do your business in person. The free option can cost a lot. Digitalization is pushed because the government want to reduce "first level support". You get to talk to robots, for hours and then get an appointment in months.

gambiting 3y ago

>>you always have the free option to do your business in person. I guess you don't actually live in the UK then. There is nowhere to go "in person" to interact with HMRC for instance. You can still send them paper forms for most things, but the result will be saved in your online HMRC profile, so you haven't bypassed anything. >>I would assume a basic free option would have to be provided to legal resident of such country. You'd assume wrong. The argument is that all of these options are "free" so what are you complaining about. Same thing is happening with banks - branches are closing down across the country in droves, with a lot of people reporting that they now have to travel 1h+ to their nearest branch if they need to do something in person(and annoyingly banks themselves force that - you can't deposit a cheque over £500 online for instance, you have to do it in person for some idiotic reason)