4 ms·

This seems parallel to the discussion of how NBA players shoot foul shots. From what I've read, experiments show that basket percentage is measurably higher if

This seems parallel to the discussion of how NBA players shoot foul shots. From what I've read, experiments show that basket percentage is measurably higher if you shoot with the underhand "granny shot", compared to the conventional way of shooting. Why, then, don't we see players shooting this way? You'd think that the coaches would tell players to do this to help the team, and that they'd want to, to boost their own stats. But it seems like doing so seems un-cool enough that it conflicts with other priorities about building their individual "brands". edit: learn to spell "basket"

BerislavLopac 3y ago
This reminds me of the introduction of the V-style [0] in ski jumping: it was originally deemed inappropriate by the judges, who scored it lower, but it provided so much more distance that today it's the most widely used technique. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping_techniques#V-style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping_techniques#V-style
- Doxin 3y ago
  It's still wild to me that ski-jumping is a jury sport. Seems to me that it'd be simplest to just... measure distance? But I guess distance is one of the least important things to the score.
kleton 3y ago
Possibly the additional time investment required to master two different throws vs learning a specialized throw for foul shots.
vanderZwan 3y ago
> experiments show that basked percentage is measurably higher if you shoot with the underhand "granny shot" There is also the Dutch sport "korfbal" (which literally translates to basketball, funny enough) where the baskets are higher, smaller and have no board, and you are not allowed to shoot if blocked anyway. Everyone shoots with two hands, and the equivalent of the lay-up is even sort-of done underhandedly. Speaking of social norms and not wanting to look "uncool", korfbal is often talked about as a very dorky sport, even though it is fairly popular in the Netherlands. Most commonly by men who insist real men play football (soccer for the Americans). Speaking as a man who really enjoyed korfbal growing up, I suspect this is mainly because it's a unisex team-sport. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korfball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korfball [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtJB5jBOis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtJB5jBOis
nemo44x 3y ago
Most guys that golf shouldn't use a driver and should carry a 7-wood instead. But they hit driver because not hitting driver (even though they get measurably worse results than if they hit anything else) is worse than hitting it into the woods in the eyes of many. Pride matters!
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  Not knowing much about golf, what's the difference between the two?
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    A driver is the club you use when you want to get the most distance (in theory) when you tee off. It has the least amount of loft (10 desgree is common) on the club and has the longest shaft (35" is common) so you can swing it fast and the ball should go far. However, it's precisely because of these features that it's difficult to hit for many players. So they end up hitting their tee shot crooked or make poor contact (they don't hit the ball in the middle of the club) and lose considerable distance and accuracy. Other clubs, like a 3 wood (14 degrees) or a 5 wood (18 degrees) or a 7 wood (22 degrees) sacrifice distance but you are more likely to make good contact off the tee (because of a shorter shaft and more loft on the face) which results in a ball that's more likely to be in a playable spot, but not as far down the hole as a perfectly hit driver. But they give you more tolerance for a not perfectly well struck ball. They are more "forgiving". Think of golf clubs this way - each one a golfer may carry is a tool designed to give the player an advantage when doing a certain thing. Some clubs are designed to put a lot of spin on the ball and go a shorter distance because that would be ideal for that kind of shot the club is made for. The driver is a tool designed to hit the ball as far as you can. But if you can't utilize the tool and benefit from the advantages it gives you, it's not so useful.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > more likely to make good contact off the tee (because of ... more loft on the face) How does loft help make good contact?
wolverine876 3y ago
Rick Barry, who played decades ago, shot fouls underhand, but that's the only person I know of. Professional sports are entertainment. If on-court productivity conflicts with entertainment, the latter is the priority.
- cf100clunk 3y ago
  The Curious Case Of Wilt Chamberlain's Free Throws: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM
mc32 3y ago
I had to look it up, apparently Wilt Chamberlain shot underhanded one year and gave up because he said he looked like a sissy doing it. The Shaq said he'd rather shoo 0% than use the granny shot... so there is some norm governing what shot you use. Shaq might not be humble, but he's got a great attitude, once asked how is game was, he said, he was retired and hadn't shot a ball in years. That's awesome. Many players can't let go.
RajT88 3y ago
> But it seems like doing so seems un-cool enough that it conflicts with other priorities For example: Viewers and butts in seats. These are arguably higher priorities than winning games and are ostensibly correlated, but not the same thing.
no_wizard 3y ago
Reminds me of how the Pontiac Aztek did very poorly in reviews and sales, but became very popular on the used car market because of Breaking Bad[0] in the early to mid 2010s. [0]: https://www.inverse.com/article/6092-kids-are-buying-up-pontiac-azteks-because-breaking-bad-and-walter-white https://www.inverse.com/article/6092-kids-are-buying-up-pont...
winphone1974 3y ago
This is not a great example. It's based on essentially one player, Rick Barry, who shot underhand at a high percentage. There are no bad underhand foul shooters, which I find suspicious, Yet I can cherry pick very tall, very good foul shooters like Kevin Durant. Larry Bird and Jeff hornacek never struck me as particularly concerned with looking cool either.
bsder 3y ago
> From what I've read, experiments show that basket percentage is measurably higher if you shoot with the underhand "granny shot", compared to the conventional way of shooting. Probably only true for poor free throw shooters. The muscle memory required for shooting at all requires an inordinate amount of daily practice. Requiring a very different muscle action for free throws is not going to work very well. The point of the "granny shot" is simply to have the big guys put a big arc on the shot. Huge guys like Wilt or Shaq often are releasing directly at the basket instead of putting a big arc on the shot. They don't do that on regular shots (at least Wilt didn't). Why Wilt never just did "fadeaway jumpers" from the free throw line is beyond me--everybody who is decent at free throw shooting uses whatever shooting mechanism they're good at normally. However, it does take daily practice, and it takes years. For me, it took my entire high school career to go from a 50% free throw shooter as a freshman to a 98% free throw shooter senior year. Every basketball practice (playground, school, gym, wherever and whatever) always ended with 100 free throws--the point was to be able to do them even when you were on the point of exhaustion. Of course, Wilt is a whole lot bigger and forgot more basketball than I ever learned. Would it have been worth it to Wilt to spend the time everyday to practice free throws vs something else? Shrug.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Maybe it's unfair on HN, but I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims: > The muscle memory required for shooting at all requires an inordinate amount of daily practice. Do you mean, at a professional level? Lots of people shoot the ball without daily practice. I know people who have picked up a ball and shot decently after many years of not playing at all. > everybody who is decent at free throw shooting uses whatever shooting mechanism they're good at normally. From what I know, coaches teach a specific free throw shooting technique, including what is done before and between free throws. And finally I want to say: Steph, it's really cool that you like BSD and contribute to HN (a hometown forum!). But stop exaggerating. NBA Free Throw % All-Time Leaders: * Career: Stephen Curry: 90.9% (Or is it José?) * Single season: 1. José Calderón 98.05% (2008-09), 2.Calvin Murphy .95.81% (1980-81), 3. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf 95.6% (1993-94) https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.h... https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_season.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_season.h...

BerislavLopac 3y ago

This reminds me of the introduction of the V-style [0] in ski jumping: it was originally deemed inappropriate by the judges, who scored it lower, but it provided so much more distance that today it's the most widely used technique. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping_techniques#V-style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping_techniques#V-style

Doxin 3y ago
It's still wild to me that ski-jumping is a jury sport. Seems to me that it'd be simplest to just... measure distance? But I guess distance is one of the least important things to the score.

kleton 3y ago

Possibly the additional time investment required to master two different throws vs learning a specialized throw for foul shots.

vanderZwan 3y ago

> experiments show that basked percentage is measurably higher if you shoot with the underhand "granny shot" There is also the Dutch sport "korfbal" (which literally translates to basketball, funny enough) where the baskets are higher, smaller and have no board, and you are not allowed to shoot if blocked anyway. Everyone shoots with two hands, and the equivalent of the lay-up is even sort-of done underhandedly. Speaking of social norms and not wanting to look "uncool", korfbal is often talked about as a very dorky sport, even though it is fairly popular in the Netherlands. Most commonly by men who insist real men play football (soccer for the Americans). Speaking as a man who really enjoyed korfbal growing up, I suspect this is mainly because it's a unisex team-sport. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korfball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korfball [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtJB5jBOis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtJB5jBOis

nemo44x 3y ago

Most guys that golf shouldn't use a driver and should carry a 7-wood instead. But they hit driver because not hitting driver (even though they get measurably worse results than if they hit anything else) is worse than hitting it into the woods in the eyes of many. Pride matters!

Baeocystin 3y ago
Not knowing much about golf, what's the difference between the two?
- nemo44x 3y ago
  A driver is the club you use when you want to get the most distance (in theory) when you tee off. It has the least amount of loft (10 desgree is common) on the club and has the longest shaft (35" is common) so you can swing it fast and the ball should go far. However, it's precisely because of these features that it's difficult to hit for many players. So they end up hitting their tee shot crooked or make poor contact (they don't hit the ball in the middle of the club) and lose considerable distance and accuracy. Other clubs, like a 3 wood (14 degrees) or a 5 wood (18 degrees) or a 7 wood (22 degrees) sacrifice distance but you are more likely to make good contact off the tee (because of a shorter shaft and more loft on the face) which results in a ball that's more likely to be in a playable spot, but not as far down the hole as a perfectly hit driver. But they give you more tolerance for a not perfectly well struck ball. They are more "forgiving". Think of golf clubs this way - each one a golfer may carry is a tool designed to give the player an advantage when doing a certain thing. Some clubs are designed to put a lot of spin on the ball and go a shorter distance because that would be ideal for that kind of shot the club is made for. The driver is a tool designed to hit the ball as far as you can. But if you can't utilize the tool and benefit from the advantages it gives you, it's not so useful.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > more likely to make good contact off the tee (because of ... more loft on the face) How does loft help make good contact?

wolverine876 3y ago

Rick Barry, who played decades ago, shot fouls underhand, but that's the only person I know of. Professional sports are entertainment. If on-court productivity conflicts with entertainment, the latter is the priority.

cf100clunk 3y ago
The Curious Case Of Wilt Chamberlain's Free Throws: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM

mc32 3y ago

I had to look it up, apparently Wilt Chamberlain shot underhanded one year and gave up because he said he looked like a sissy doing it. The Shaq said he'd rather shoo 0% than use the granny shot... so there is some norm governing what shot you use. Shaq might not be humble, but he's got a great attitude, once asked how is game was, he said, he was retired and hadn't shot a ball in years. That's awesome. Many players can't let go.

RajT88 3y ago

> But it seems like doing so seems un-cool enough that it conflicts with other priorities For example: Viewers and butts in seats. These are arguably higher priorities than winning games and are ostensibly correlated, but not the same thing.

no_wizard 3y ago

Reminds me of how the Pontiac Aztek did very poorly in reviews and sales, but became very popular on the used car market because of Breaking Bad[0] in the early to mid 2010s. [0]: https://www.inverse.com/article/6092-kids-are-buying-up-pontiac-azteks-because-breaking-bad-and-walter-white https://www.inverse.com/article/6092-kids-are-buying-up-pont...

winphone1974 3y ago

This is not a great example. It's based on essentially one player, Rick Barry, who shot underhand at a high percentage. There are no bad underhand foul shooters, which I find suspicious, Yet I can cherry pick very tall, very good foul shooters like Kevin Durant. Larry Bird and Jeff hornacek never struck me as particularly concerned with looking cool either.

bsder 3y ago

> From what I've read, experiments show that basket percentage is measurably higher if you shoot with the underhand "granny shot", compared to the conventional way of shooting. Probably only true for poor free throw shooters. The muscle memory required for shooting at all requires an inordinate amount of daily practice. Requiring a very different muscle action for free throws is not going to work very well. The point of the "granny shot" is simply to have the big guys put a big arc on the shot. Huge guys like Wilt or Shaq often are releasing directly at the basket instead of putting a big arc on the shot. They don't do that on regular shots (at least Wilt didn't). Why Wilt never just did "fadeaway jumpers" from the free throw line is beyond me--everybody who is decent at free throw shooting uses whatever shooting mechanism they're good at normally. However, it does take daily practice, and it takes years. For me, it took my entire high school career to go from a 50% free throw shooter as a freshman to a 98% free throw shooter senior year. Every basketball practice (playground, school, gym, wherever and whatever) always ended with 100 free throws--the point was to be able to do them even when you were on the point of exhaustion. Of course, Wilt is a whole lot bigger and forgot more basketball than I ever learned. Would it have been worth it to Wilt to spend the time everyday to practice free throws vs something else? Shrug.

wolverine876 3y ago
Maybe it's unfair on HN, but I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims: > The muscle memory required for shooting at all requires an inordinate amount of daily practice. Do you mean, at a professional level? Lots of people shoot the ball without daily practice. I know people who have picked up a ball and shot decently after many years of not playing at all. > everybody who is decent at free throw shooting uses whatever shooting mechanism they're good at normally. From what I know, coaches teach a specific free throw shooting technique, including what is done before and between free throws. And finally I want to say: Steph, it's really cool that you like BSD and contribute to HN (a hometown forum!). But stop exaggerating. NBA Free Throw % All-Time Leaders: * Career: Stephen Curry: 90.9% (Or is it José?) * Single season: 1. José Calderón 98.05% (2008-09), 2.Calvin Murphy .95.81% (1980-81), 3. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf 95.6% (1993-94) https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.h... https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_season.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_season.h...