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Like many things, circumstances will differ. One thing that I deem a falacy though, is comparing it with e.g. an expensive paid for classroom or personal lesso

Like many things, circumstances will differ. One thing that I deem a falacy though, is comparing it with e.g. an expensive paid for classroom or personal lessons. It may well fail in such direct comparison, and no surprise! People then use that comparison to claim "it's worthless", and I disagree with that. If the claim is "30min of structured learning with duolingo will get you no closer to learning a language than 30 min of mindlessly scrolling facebook cat videos", I don't believe that's true. And THAT is the correct comparison :) One thing to note though, is how you use it - note I used the term "structured learning" in previous sentence, not "doing match madness for points" :) Personally, I spent first few months learning on duolingo, and it was wonderful; had some small chats with people who speak that language at work, occasionally wrote a sentence or two in that language in emails, etc. Then I spent next few months preserving the streak. I did the challenges and matches and got thousands of points and first places... but learned nothing. In fact, my knowledge deteriorated. Then after 200 days, I lost my streak and... breathed a sigh of relief. I am now making sure I do the lessons and practice and learn, and purposely avoid the competition part of it or activities which give many repetitive points but don't increase my knowledge. My familiarity with language is increasing again and I can make more and more sentences on my own.

demondemidi 3y ago
DuoLingo is so annoying with the gamification. It just won't shut up. I found that if I limit my use, it stops reminding me what league I'm in, probably because it realized I don't care. I just hope I'm not learning wrong things from the new AI-powered checker. It's bad enough that I can't always find an explanation why I got something wrong. (I've actually used ChatGPT 3.0 to explain some of my mistakes, and then was able to verify its explanation because of the keywords it used, and then googling those.)
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  I don't know if previous versions of DuoLingo had different approach, but on iOS, Android and Windows, I just said "No" to every option when first using it, and I don't get ANY of those. I declined notifications, widgets, reminders, everything. Not sure about the AI checker yet; we'll see! I've used ChatGPT myself though as a wonderful language tutor to complement Duolingo, so I'm trying to not be completely skeptical / cynical :-)
- lsllc 3y ago
  You can turn off the league feature: https://www.reddit.com/r/duolingo/comments/ulj7pa/psa_you_can_turn_off_leagues/ https://www.reddit.com/r/duolingo/comments/ulj7pa/psa_you_ca...
wycy 3y ago
> Then after 200 days, I lost my streak and... breathed a sigh of relief. I have a 297 day streak right now and I just feel like slave to the owl. I’m going to get to 365 and then purposely break the streak to free myself.
- attentive 3y ago
  If you get daily language exposure some other way then why not. But if the owl is the only thing ties you to your daily exposure then you'll have nothing.
  - wintogreen74 3y ago
    This sounds suspiciously like some form of Stockholm syndrome.
    - ikt 3y ago
      to learn another language it's critical you use it as often as possible, in an ideal world you want to completely swap out your native language for the one you're learning, that's the reason for the streak, to keep you engaged in the target language to help you learn, it's not like a snapchat streak which is completely pointless
    - attentive 3y ago
      That's how human brain works through constant exposure. If you don't care learning the language and honest with yourself about it then it's fine too. But this topic is mostly about the people who do want to learn the language.
- sharkweek 3y ago
  Do your brain a solid and break the streak at 364 just to establish whose really in charge here.
  - Ringz 3y ago
    Probably you are right about that. Which brain does not like to pretend to give orders, instead of just reacting.
mc32 3y ago
The irritating thing about them is they personify the owl. It doesn’t even have a normal name, and instead is issued the brand name. Anyhow, when it tells me it’s sad, or it misses me, it makes me actually avoid the app. It’s so stupid and annoying as all hell.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Sure, I can see that; doesn't bother me personally in the least though as I just said "No" when it offered reminders/widgets/notifications/whatevers, so I don't think I ever heard of it as said or missing me or anything when I broke my streak. My wife even finds it cute, so it's an eye of the beholder thing :)
borroka 3y ago
> If the claim is "30min of structured learning with duolingo will get you no closer to learning a language than 30 min of mindlessly scrolling facebook cat videos", I don't believe that's true. And THAT is the correct comparison :) The correct comparison would include the effect size on language learning of using Duolingo instead of scrolling through cat videos. The effect size appears to be close to zero. And without considering in the analysis the long-term negative effects on the self-perceived ability to learn a language after spending hundreds of hours using Duolingo and being able to simply say "Hola" in Spanish, which may make the use of Duolingo a net negative on lifetime language learning.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  I don't use this app and I get the general sentiment but I can tell you one thing about effect size: the effect size of a comment that says you only learn "hello" after 100s of hours is 0!
  - borroka 3y ago
    That's not how effect sizes, in statistics, are estimated. But, yes, I used a hyperbole, it is a classic tool of rhetoric. I could have said that they just learn how to ask for a coffee, or the directions for the Eiffel Tower. The meaning is the same.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  But at that point a person has to take some responsibility. I don't think one can spend a hundred hours learning on Duolingo and not get beyond Hola. Can a person find a way to waste hundred hours on Duolingo? Sure. I got perilously close :). But after a tenth of that I could generate sentences for friendly emails and at beginning meetings etc when I actually tried to learn. Has the "100 hrs and not gotten beyond hola" been your personal experience or somebody you know? Trying to understand if I'm arguing with a strawman / straw scenario, or actual occurrence. If latter I'd be genuinely extremely curious to hear a lot more! What were the 100hrs spent on?
  - 3y ago
4death4 3y ago
If that’s how you want to spend your time, then that’s fine. But, it’s kind of delusional to think you’ve been learning to speak another language. At best you’ve been playing a language-learning inspired game. I know people who have done Duo Lingo for years. I was shocked when I saw how bad their language skills were.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I mean, lead a horse to water. I had 3 years of enforced language learning in high school. I barely learned any conversational Spanish. These sorts of apps are supplemental, otherwise paying some $10 subscription to learn a new language would be a steal. It's best treated as reading some motivational quote in the morning. Gets you out of bed and into the mood but it won't carry you through life alone. Is that worth $10/month? Depends on the person, but it would be for me if I was being serious.

demondemidi 3y ago

DuoLingo is so annoying with the gamification. It just won't shut up. I found that if I limit my use, it stops reminding me what league I'm in, probably because it realized I don't care. I just hope I'm not learning wrong things from the new AI-powered checker. It's bad enough that I can't always find an explanation why I got something wrong. (I've actually used ChatGPT 3.0 to explain some of my mistakes, and then was able to verify its explanation because of the keywords it used, and then googling those.)

NikolaNovak 3y ago
I don't know if previous versions of DuoLingo had different approach, but on iOS, Android and Windows, I just said "No" to every option when first using it, and I don't get ANY of those. I declined notifications, widgets, reminders, everything. Not sure about the AI checker yet; we'll see! I've used ChatGPT myself though as a wonderful language tutor to complement Duolingo, so I'm trying to not be completely skeptical / cynical :-)
lsllc 3y ago
You can turn off the league feature: https://www.reddit.com/r/duolingo/comments/ulj7pa/psa_you_can_turn_off_leagues/ https://www.reddit.com/r/duolingo/comments/ulj7pa/psa_you_ca...

wycy 3y ago

> Then after 200 days, I lost my streak and... breathed a sigh of relief. I have a 297 day streak right now and I just feel like slave to the owl. I’m going to get to 365 and then purposely break the streak to free myself.

attentive 3y ago
If you get daily language exposure some other way then why not. But if the owl is the only thing ties you to your daily exposure then you'll have nothing.
- wintogreen74 3y ago
  This sounds suspiciously like some form of Stockholm syndrome.
  - ikt 3y ago
    to learn another language it's critical you use it as often as possible, in an ideal world you want to completely swap out your native language for the one you're learning, that's the reason for the streak, to keep you engaged in the target language to help you learn, it's not like a snapchat streak which is completely pointless
  - attentive 3y ago
    That's how human brain works through constant exposure. If you don't care learning the language and honest with yourself about it then it's fine too. But this topic is mostly about the people who do want to learn the language.
sharkweek 3y ago
Do your brain a solid and break the streak at 364 just to establish whose really in charge here.
- Ringz 3y ago
  Probably you are right about that. Which brain does not like to pretend to give orders, instead of just reacting.

mc32 3y ago

The irritating thing about them is they personify the owl. It doesn’t even have a normal name, and instead is issued the brand name. Anyhow, when it tells me it’s sad, or it misses me, it makes me actually avoid the app. It’s so stupid and annoying as all hell.

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Sure, I can see that; doesn't bother me personally in the least though as I just said "No" when it offered reminders/widgets/notifications/whatevers, so I don't think I ever heard of it as said or missing me or anything when I broke my streak. My wife even finds it cute, so it's an eye of the beholder thing :)

borroka 3y ago

> If the claim is "30min of structured learning with duolingo will get you no closer to learning a language than 30 min of mindlessly scrolling facebook cat videos", I don't believe that's true. And THAT is the correct comparison :) The correct comparison would include the effect size on language learning of using Duolingo instead of scrolling through cat videos. The effect size appears to be close to zero. And without considering in the analysis the long-term negative effects on the self-perceived ability to learn a language after spending hundreds of hours using Duolingo and being able to simply say "Hola" in Spanish, which may make the use of Duolingo a net negative on lifetime language learning.

refulgentis 3y ago
I don't use this app and I get the general sentiment but I can tell you one thing about effect size: the effect size of a comment that says you only learn "hello" after 100s of hours is 0!
- borroka 3y ago
  That's not how effect sizes, in statistics, are estimated. But, yes, I used a hyperbole, it is a classic tool of rhetoric. I could have said that they just learn how to ask for a coffee, or the directions for the Eiffel Tower. The meaning is the same.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
But at that point a person has to take some responsibility. I don't think one can spend a hundred hours learning on Duolingo and not get beyond Hola. Can a person find a way to waste hundred hours on Duolingo? Sure. I got perilously close :). But after a tenth of that I could generate sentences for friendly emails and at beginning meetings etc when I actually tried to learn. Has the "100 hrs and not gotten beyond hola" been your personal experience or somebody you know? Trying to understand if I'm arguing with a strawman / straw scenario, or actual occurrence. If latter I'd be genuinely extremely curious to hear a lot more! What were the 100hrs spent on?
- 3y ago

4death4 3y ago

If that’s how you want to spend your time, then that’s fine. But, it’s kind of delusional to think you’ve been learning to speak another language. At best you’ve been playing a language-learning inspired game. I know people who have done Duo Lingo for years. I was shocked when I saw how bad their language skills were.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
I mean, lead a horse to water. I had 3 years of enforced language learning in high school. I barely learned any conversational Spanish. These sorts of apps are supplemental, otherwise paying some $10 subscription to learn a new language would be a steal. It's best treated as reading some motivational quote in the morning. Gets you out of bed and into the mood but it won't carry you through life alone. Is that worth $10/month? Depends on the person, but it would be for me if I was being serious.