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Exactly! And while we're at it, why stop with CVRs? Software is a key component of all engineering domains today, and thus a critical safety factor. All MacB

Exactly! And while we're at it, why stop with CVRs? Software is a key component of all engineering domains today, and thus a critical safety factor. All MacBooks (the most popular developer machine today) have built-in microphones. We should using them to record all dev conversations (after all, there's zero incremental hardware cost to doing so), as well as all keystrokes of anyone who writes software, 24/7, so that we can retrospectively analyze why they failed to avoid writing buggy code and the decisions that led to it. Everyone who has had their PII leaked will rejoice, knowing that we can finally "get" those nasty open- and closed-source developers who created CVEs. "B-b-but, that's different!"

cheschire 3y ago
But it is different. Your message could've had an entirely different tone that would have provided a thoughtful yet tangential analogy. Instead you've chosen a specious strawman approach for some reason. There's a clear and obvious difference between a self-important person who writes software and a person who pilots hundreds of folks over top of thousands of other folks in a slow and only mildly explosive missile.
- abadpoli 3y ago
  That mildly-explosive missile has software running on it too. So do a lot of actual missiles, for that matter. If we record every action of the pilot of a plane, why wouldn’t we also record every action of the developers who wrote the autopilot software, or the fly-by-wire software?
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    Because the developers don't need to make snap decisions under stressful conditions with lives at stake. If you can't see the difference, sorry, that's on you.
    - abadpoli 3y ago
      Making snap decisions under stressful conditions has nothing to do with recording actions for later root cause analysis. If you can’t see the difference, sorry, that’s on you.
  - cheschire 3y ago
    Recording every action of a pilot in the performance of their job, vice recording every action of a pilot in their daily goings on. These are two different things. As a developer, every final action is also recorded in the performance of their job. That's what Git is for, and that history lasts for quite a lot longer than 2 hours.
    - abadpoli 3y ago
      You’re not seeing the parallels. The original comment suggested recording every action from the cockpit and using it for analytical data. The final action isn’t the goal. The steps and discussion that got them to the final action is. Hence recording every step the pilot takes, and the equivalent would be also recording every discussion that the software developer made that influenced them to write the code the way they did. Saying “the git commit is there, that should be good enough to know the result” is like saying “the pilot landed the plane, that should be good enough to know the result”. Why do we even need CVRs at all? The final action is right there, right? So again, why record everything the pilot says but not everything the developer that wrote the autopilot says?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Aeolun 3y ago
        I think it would be helpful to qualify ‘everything the pilot/developer says’ with ‘in the past 25 hours’. For a pilot that just flew a 12 hour flight with a malfunction that would be of obvious benefit. For a developer that introduced a bug 8 months ago, maybe not so much. Even if you recorded every interaction the dev had over that time period nobody would be able to go through everything and get sensible information.
        abadpoli 3y ago
        The comment that kicked off this chain of comments wasn’t suggesting the past 25 hours, it was suggesting recording all flights, always, and storing it forever to be analyzed at any date in the future.
deelowe 3y ago
It is. 100s of people don't fall from the sky if your laptop experiences a critical error.
- abadpoli 3y ago
  Sure they do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs
  - deelowe 3y ago
    I said laptop...
green-eclipse 3y ago
This is a wildly unserious argument.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
robertoandred 3y ago
As if all email/Slack convos aren't already saved and archived...

cheschire 3y ago

But it is different. Your message could've had an entirely different tone that would have provided a thoughtful yet tangential analogy. Instead you've chosen a specious strawman approach for some reason. There's a clear and obvious difference between a self-important person who writes software and a person who pilots hundreds of folks over top of thousands of other folks in a slow and only mildly explosive missile.

abadpoli 3y ago
That mildly-explosive missile has software running on it too. So do a lot of actual missiles, for that matter. If we record every action of the pilot of a plane, why wouldn’t we also record every action of the developers who wrote the autopilot software, or the fly-by-wire software?
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Because the developers don't need to make snap decisions under stressful conditions with lives at stake. If you can't see the difference, sorry, that's on you.
  - abadpoli 3y ago
    Making snap decisions under stressful conditions has nothing to do with recording actions for later root cause analysis. If you can’t see the difference, sorry, that’s on you.
- cheschire 3y ago
  Recording every action of a pilot in the performance of their job, vice recording every action of a pilot in their daily goings on. These are two different things. As a developer, every final action is also recorded in the performance of their job. That's what Git is for, and that history lasts for quite a lot longer than 2 hours.
  - abadpoli 3y ago
    You’re not seeing the parallels. The original comment suggested recording every action from the cockpit and using it for analytical data. The final action isn’t the goal. The steps and discussion that got them to the final action is. Hence recording every step the pilot takes, and the equivalent would be also recording every discussion that the software developer made that influenced them to write the code the way they did. Saying “the git commit is there, that should be good enough to know the result” is like saying “the pilot landed the plane, that should be good enough to know the result”. Why do we even need CVRs at all? The final action is right there, right? So again, why record everything the pilot says but not everything the developer that wrote the autopilot says?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      I think it would be helpful to qualify ‘everything the pilot/developer says’ with ‘in the past 25 hours’. For a pilot that just flew a 12 hour flight with a malfunction that would be of obvious benefit. For a developer that introduced a bug 8 months ago, maybe not so much. Even if you recorded every interaction the dev had over that time period nobody would be able to go through everything and get sensible information.
      - abadpoli 3y ago
        The comment that kicked off this chain of comments wasn’t suggesting the past 25 hours, it was suggesting recording all flights, always, and storing it forever to be analyzed at any date in the future.

deelowe 3y ago

It is. 100s of people don't fall from the sky if your laptop experiences a critical error.

abadpoli 3y ago
Sure they do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_bugs
- deelowe 3y ago
  I said laptop...

green-eclipse 3y ago

This is a wildly unserious argument.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

robertoandred 3y ago

As if all email/Slack convos aren't already saved and archived...