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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon Passenger pigeons were hunted by Native Americans, but hunting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon Passenger pigeons were hunted by Native Americans, but hunting intensified after the arrival of Europeans, particularly in the 19th century. Pigeon meat was commercialized as cheap food, resulting in hunting on a massive scale for many decades. There were several other factors contributing to the decline and subsequent extinction of the species, including shrinking of the large breeding populations necessary for preservation of the species and widespread deforestation, which destroyed its habitat. A slow decline between about 1800 and 1870 was followed by a rapid decline between 1870 and 1890. In 1900, the last confirmed wild bird was shot in southern Ohio. So too shall go the tuna. The size of a single tuna is already 50% to 70% smaller than normal. Soon their populations will go into freefall once there's not enough mature ones to spawn. The fishing will continue until there's no more. Even if legal limits are imposed, fishing will just continue illegally as it already does today.

thfuran 3y ago
Maybe. Cod suddenly collapsed by like 98% but never went extinct.
- morkalork 3y ago
  Probably a dumb question but why hasn't cod rebound on the east coast? The fishing moratorium has been in place for decades now, shouldn't the population have increased exponentially since then?
  - alecthomas 3y ago
    This paper [1] (PDF) indicates it is likely a complex interaction between multiple parts of the ecosystem. One example is that large cod are apex predators, competing with seals and when those cod were removed, seal populations increased, and predation on small cod increased correspondingly. [1] https://oceansfirstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/oceansfirst_05_steele.pdf https://oceansfirstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ocean...
    - morkalork 3y ago
      Thanks, that was surprisingly interesting. It also talks about capelin the sibling comment mentioned.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Many blame overfishing of capelin, the main cod foodstock.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    To speak in simple terms: Cods were let go. The dynamics of the team changed. Ecosystem hired lobsters to fill the gap. Cods will not return because the former positions aren't available anymore.
- xutopia 3y ago
  Cod benefited by a moratorium on fishing in the areas with the most stock (eastern Canada). Without it there would have been a complete disappearing of cod.
anovikov 3y ago
That's not how fishing works. After some threshold growing fish in aquaculture becomes cheaper than fishing, and things get back in balance. Otherwise, salmon would've been extinct by now. Tuna and herring are not grown en masse in aquaculture... yet. That will change.
- namtab00 3y ago
  I've always heard predatory species like tuna cannot be farmed, but my knowledge may be outdated
  - metal_am 3y ago
    Tuna can’t pump water over their gills. They can never stop swimming
    - ravenstine 3y ago
      Seems like an opportunity for CRISPR to make tunas that are farmable.
      - haltist 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - anovikov 3y ago
    Most prized variety - the bluefin tuna - is now widely farmed already (although farmed one still makes a very small proportion of tuna consumed). But it's possible and is already viable commercially.
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      not exactly farmed. Is fattened in captivity.
  - sgift 3y ago
    I thought the same, but it looks like there was a breakthrough relatively recently making it possible now: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/04/breeding-breakthrough-paves-way-for-intensive-tuna-farming-on-land https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/04/breeding...
wharvle 3y ago
1491 (or is it the sequel, 1493? I could see this topic ending up in either) makes the case that there's nowhere near as much evidence of Native Americans eating passenger pigeons as one might expect given the vast populations (and incredible ease of hunting) reported in later decades. Instead, the vast numbers may have been a sign of a badly screwed-up ecosystem, with huge swaths of native-managed agriculture and land suddenly going unmanaged, freeing up tons of cheap calories of exactly the kind the birds could use, leading to a gigantic boom in species perfectly-situated to take advantage of it, which would include the Passenger. All this, on account of the continent experiencing an apocalyptic drop in population after European disease arrived (and for other reasons, of course, but the diseases did a great deal of it). That's not why it went extinct, of course, but does put in perspective what may have been a more "natural" population level for the bird, previously—the shocking decline may have been from an aberrant many-times-larger-than-normal population, not from the range in which the population had tended to stay before extensive contact with Europe. It may also explain why it was possible for it to go extinct so seemingly-easily—they weren't truly thriving as much as one might suppose from the numbers, and in fact were quite vulnerable, especially if people got accustomed to eating lots of them and their population was already destined to rubber-band back to something under its ordinary level.
strangattractor 3y ago
The worlds fisheries are almost universally mismanaged. Which reminds me of a conversation with a relative of mine from the Eastern shore of Va. He worked for a company that caught Horseshoe Crabs. These crabs were then ground up and used for bait to catch Conch. I pointed out to him that down the street from his company was another company that caught and released Horseshoe Crabs. They used their blood to produce medicine at great profit. Since that time Va has sadly had to place restrictions on harvesting Horseshoe Crabs. So not only did we over fish Horseshoe Crabs - we did it to over fish Conch.
bookofjoe 3y ago
Buffalo
paulmd 3y ago
Because of the laws of international waters etc it’s essentially impossible to police, short of aircraft/naval patrols being willing to fire on violators on sight. There is no legal basis to keep another nation from overfishing as long as it happens in international waters, and china largely just does what they want even in territorial waters. Unless you’re willing to start an international incident the best you can do is get one boat while the other 49 slip by with their haul. We set up the laws of the sea basically on the same model as the United Nations. They’re there to keep the peace between international powers, not produce good governance.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Because of the laws of international waters etc it’s essentially impossible to police, short of aircraft/naval patrols being willing to fire on violators on sight. Yes, but not when you are the US of A. /s

thfuran 3y ago

Maybe. Cod suddenly collapsed by like 98% but never went extinct.

morkalork 3y ago
Probably a dumb question but why hasn't cod rebound on the east coast? The fishing moratorium has been in place for decades now, shouldn't the population have increased exponentially since then?
- alecthomas 3y ago
  This paper [1] (PDF) indicates it is likely a complex interaction between multiple parts of the ecosystem. One example is that large cod are apex predators, competing with seals and when those cod were removed, seal populations increased, and predation on small cod increased correspondingly. [1] https://oceansfirstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/oceansfirst_05_steele.pdf https://oceansfirstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ocean...
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Thanks, that was surprisingly interesting. It also talks about capelin the sibling comment mentioned.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Many blame overfishing of capelin, the main cod foodstock.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  To speak in simple terms: Cods were let go. The dynamics of the team changed. Ecosystem hired lobsters to fill the gap. Cods will not return because the former positions aren't available anymore.
xutopia 3y ago
Cod benefited by a moratorium on fishing in the areas with the most stock (eastern Canada). Without it there would have been a complete disappearing of cod.

anovikov 3y ago

That's not how fishing works. After some threshold growing fish in aquaculture becomes cheaper than fishing, and things get back in balance. Otherwise, salmon would've been extinct by now. Tuna and herring are not grown en masse in aquaculture... yet. That will change.

namtab00 3y ago
I've always heard predatory species like tuna cannot be farmed, but my knowledge may be outdated
- metal_am 3y ago
  Tuna can’t pump water over their gills. They can never stop swimming
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    Seems like an opportunity for CRISPR to make tunas that are farmable.
    - haltist 3y ago
      [flagged]
- anovikov 3y ago
  Most prized variety - the bluefin tuna - is now widely farmed already (although farmed one still makes a very small proportion of tuna consumed). But it's possible and is already viable commercially.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    not exactly farmed. Is fattened in captivity.
- sgift 3y ago
  I thought the same, but it looks like there was a breakthrough relatively recently making it possible now: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/04/breeding-breakthrough-paves-way-for-intensive-tuna-farming-on-land https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/04/breeding...

wharvle 3y ago

1491 (or is it the sequel, 1493? I could see this topic ending up in either) makes the case that there's nowhere near as much evidence of Native Americans eating passenger pigeons as one might expect given the vast populations (and incredible ease of hunting) reported in later decades. Instead, the vast numbers may have been a sign of a badly screwed-up ecosystem, with huge swaths of native-managed agriculture and land suddenly going unmanaged, freeing up tons of cheap calories of exactly the kind the birds could use, leading to a gigantic boom in species perfectly-situated to take advantage of it, which would include the Passenger. All this, on account of the continent experiencing an apocalyptic drop in population after European disease arrived (and for other reasons, of course, but the diseases did a great deal of it). That's not why it went extinct, of course, but does put in perspective what may have been a more "natural" population level for the bird, previously—the shocking decline may have been from an aberrant many-times-larger-than-normal population, not from the range in which the population had tended to stay before extensive contact with Europe. It may also explain why it was possible for it to go extinct so seemingly-easily—they weren't truly thriving as much as one might suppose from the numbers, and in fact were quite vulnerable, especially if people got accustomed to eating lots of them and their population was already destined to rubber-band back to something under its ordinary level.

strangattractor 3y ago

The worlds fisheries are almost universally mismanaged. Which reminds me of a conversation with a relative of mine from the Eastern shore of Va. He worked for a company that caught Horseshoe Crabs. These crabs were then ground up and used for bait to catch Conch. I pointed out to him that down the street from his company was another company that caught and released Horseshoe Crabs. They used their blood to produce medicine at great profit. Since that time Va has sadly had to place restrictions on harvesting Horseshoe Crabs. So not only did we over fish Horseshoe Crabs - we did it to over fish Conch.

bookofjoe 3y ago

Buffalo

paulmd 3y ago

Because of the laws of international waters etc it’s essentially impossible to police, short of aircraft/naval patrols being willing to fire on violators on sight. There is no legal basis to keep another nation from overfishing as long as it happens in international waters, and china largely just does what they want even in territorial waters. Unless you’re willing to start an international incident the best you can do is get one boat while the other 49 slip by with their haul. We set up the laws of the sea basically on the same model as the United Nations. They’re there to keep the peace between international powers, not produce good governance.

hulitu 3y ago
> Because of the laws of international waters etc it’s essentially impossible to police, short of aircraft/naval patrols being willing to fire on violators on sight. Yes, but not when you are the US of A. /s