5 ms·

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

merry_flame 3y ago
Are we reading the same article ? "The survey found that two-thirds of heat pump owners and 59% of gas boiler owners were satisfied even without extensive energy efficiency upgrades."
starbugs 3y ago
This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.
- plexman 3y ago
  + it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficiency-standards-for-new-dwellings/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.
  - theGnuMe 3y ago
    Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.
    - soco 3y ago
      Or get subventions for insulation upgrades?
- charlieyu1 3y ago
  Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent
  - Ynottingten 3y ago
    No clue. The last time i looked, the prices for a heat pump from known companies like LG or viesmann are similiar than a gas burner. And with a heat pump you can even invest in PV and use that to be even more independent and later you can leverage an EV car either by never buying gas again or for storage. Overall a very smart concept. But perhaps he lives in a country were energy is very cheap, will stay cheap and is very stable?
  - saltcured 3y ago
    I think the answer depends largely on the retrofitting cost, then less so on local market conditions. I.e. a niche market has fewer trained technicians and higher margins. But the retrofitting issues can be substantial, particularly when it triggers updated building code enforcement. An older house with natural gas heating and no air-conditioning may need major electrical upgrades to support a heat pump system. Others may require ducts to be replaced. Or, other invasive work to meet newer insulation standards. Some houses might have some fluid-based radiant heating and require rework because it was designed for the higher fluid temperatures of a boiler while a heat pump system would use lower temperatures and higher flow rates. Also, many homes may be subject to some kind of aesthetic rules which rule out the mini-split systems popular in Asia. The owner cannot just bolt new equipment or conduits to the exterior of the house. Instead, the above retrofitting tasks turn into major renovation jobs to tear apart interior walls.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.
  - soco 3y ago
    5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Thlom 3y ago
      This number is more or less the same in Norway as well for air-to-air pumps without subsidies. Keep in mind that oil/gas heating and such is not normal, we've used electricity and firewood for heating for the most part. So replacing electric heaters with a heat pump will drastically reduce electricity costs, improve air quality and improve heating. Really a no brainer.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        Ok that makes sense then. Most people here will compare against an existing gas or oil heating installation I guess...
    - jltsiren 3y ago
      That's what news articles and the companies installing heat pumps have been saying since ~2005. Had those estimates been substantially wrong, we'd know it by now. The only subsidy is the deduction for hiring household help. If you hire outside help for any purpose, you get a tax deduction based on the wages you pay.
- soco 3y ago
  We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Well, the calculations from the providers are highly likely to be "optimized". I would suggest the first point one might check is if the given COP is realistic. Usually it isn't.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Wouldn't it take longer to pay off on a well-insulated home? That's the sort of home that doesn't use much gas to begin with.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    1) Good insulation means you can use a smaller (cheaper) heat pump. Or it doesn't need to work hard most of the time & is therefore likely to last longer. 2) Having that heat pump removes the need for a natural gas hookup - and fixed-rate monthly cost that comes with it regardless how much gas is used.
  - bzzzt 3y ago
    Of course, you can't save what you don't spend ;) A very well insulated home can rely on only a heat pump.
- timbit42 3y ago
  Why do you doubt anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system? I bought and paid for two heat pumps twelve years ago and the reduction in energy costs resulted in them paying for themselves after 11 years. The cost of ownership was simply the purchase and installation cost as I did not take out a loan or receive any government funding. There was virtually no maintenance required except cleaning the humidity drain half a dozen times. Right now I'm waiting to see how long they last before they fail so I can calculate the total amount of savings. I should also point out that because my heat pumps are 12 years old, they only have a CoP of 3, while new heat pumps have a CoP of 4 and it is expected units with a CoP of 5 will be available within a few years.
- Ynottingten 3y ago
  In germany this topic was disucssed and is still discussed up and down and a TON of studies and caclulations exists.
bongobingo1 3y ago
We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and I would have to buy the heatpump from out of town, so getting any warranty/servicing might be more drama. And I really didnt want to listen to a cheap compressor tick-on all the time. Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. Feels like a rich mans game.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. The high cost of the hardware, installation and maintenance suggests that you would rather "kill the planet" with the system installed?
  - dkdbejwi383 3y ago
    I'm not sure whether your question is some kind of flippant accusation, but in case you're being genuine: I think the poster you quoted is saying something like: if I could afford to do the right thing for the planet, I would - but I cannot afford to and am forced to do something which I know is detrimental.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      > kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining such as system might be a good indicator of why that is (higher complexity). Just because a solution appears "green", it doesn't necessarily have to keep its promises. Especially when people do panic installations as has happened here in Germany, they might get sold on an idea rather than a reality. Hardly a benefit for the planet.
ghusto 3y ago
Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).
- starbugs 3y ago
  > Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Yep. I have looked at some newly built homes in my area. All of those that have heat pumps have flow heaters installed for hot water. So you have a COP of 1 there.
- stephen_g 3y ago
  Heat pumps for domestic hot water are basically always storage systems (I have a heat pump storage system and it's excellent). For heating radiators or underfloor it does work (and can be incredibly efficient) to do constant flow but it wouldn't work well to do for showers etc.
  - shagie 3y ago
    Showers are also a source of lost energy... flushing all that hot water out of the house. From a few years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/04/your-shower-is-wasting-huge-amounts-of-energy-and-water-heres-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20... This gets into drain water heat recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced-plumbing/drain-water-recovery/ https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced...
- acdha 3y ago
  A good heat pump water heater will have an insulated storage tank and backup resistance heat. Ours has plenty of water for a long shower but if you drain it faster than it can pull heat out of the ambient environment, the resistive heat kicks in (you can disable this if wanted) and you’ll continuously get warm water. We generally only notice that with guests in the winter - in the summer, it’s basically free since we’d be using the main heat pump to cool the house anyway.

merry_flame 3y ago

Are we reading the same article ? "The survey found that two-thirds of heat pump owners and 59% of gas boiler owners were satisfied even without extensive energy efficiency upgrades."

starbugs 3y ago

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

plexman 3y ago
+ it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficiency-standards-for-new-dwellings/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.
  - soco 3y ago
    Or get subventions for insulation upgrades?
charlieyu1 3y ago
Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent
- Ynottingten 3y ago
  No clue. The last time i looked, the prices for a heat pump from known companies like LG or viesmann are similiar than a gas burner. And with a heat pump you can even invest in PV and use that to be even more independent and later you can leverage an EV car either by never buying gas again or for storage. Overall a very smart concept. But perhaps he lives in a country were energy is very cheap, will stay cheap and is very stable?
- saltcured 3y ago
  I think the answer depends largely on the retrofitting cost, then less so on local market conditions. I.e. a niche market has fewer trained technicians and higher margins. But the retrofitting issues can be substantial, particularly when it triggers updated building code enforcement. An older house with natural gas heating and no air-conditioning may need major electrical upgrades to support a heat pump system. Others may require ducts to be replaced. Or, other invasive work to meet newer insulation standards. Some houses might have some fluid-based radiant heating and require rework because it was designed for the higher fluid temperatures of a boiler while a heat pump system would use lower temperatures and higher flow rates. Also, many homes may be subject to some kind of aesthetic rules which rule out the mini-split systems popular in Asia. The owner cannot just bolt new equipment or conduits to the exterior of the house. Instead, the above retrofitting tasks turn into major renovation jobs to tear apart interior walls.
jltsiren 3y ago
The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.
- soco 3y ago
  5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Thlom 3y ago
    This number is more or less the same in Norway as well for air-to-air pumps without subsidies. Keep in mind that oil/gas heating and such is not normal, we've used electricity and firewood for heating for the most part. So replacing electric heaters with a heat pump will drastically reduce electricity costs, improve air quality and improve heating. Really a no brainer.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      Ok that makes sense then. Most people here will compare against an existing gas or oil heating installation I guess...
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    That's what news articles and the companies installing heat pumps have been saying since ~2005. Had those estimates been substantially wrong, we'd know it by now. The only subsidy is the deduction for hiring household help. If you hire outside help for any purpose, you get a tax deduction based on the wages you pay.
soco 3y ago
We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Well, the calculations from the providers are highly likely to be "optimized". I would suggest the first point one might check is if the given COP is realistic. Usually it isn't.
HPsquared 3y ago
Wouldn't it take longer to pay off on a well-insulated home? That's the sort of home that doesn't use much gas to begin with.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  1) Good insulation means you can use a smaller (cheaper) heat pump. Or it doesn't need to work hard most of the time & is therefore likely to last longer. 2) Having that heat pump removes the need for a natural gas hookup - and fixed-rate monthly cost that comes with it regardless how much gas is used.
- bzzzt 3y ago
  Of course, you can't save what you don't spend ;) A very well insulated home can rely on only a heat pump.
timbit42 3y ago
Why do you doubt anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system? I bought and paid for two heat pumps twelve years ago and the reduction in energy costs resulted in them paying for themselves after 11 years. The cost of ownership was simply the purchase and installation cost as I did not take out a loan or receive any government funding. There was virtually no maintenance required except cleaning the humidity drain half a dozen times. Right now I'm waiting to see how long they last before they fail so I can calculate the total amount of savings. I should also point out that because my heat pumps are 12 years old, they only have a CoP of 3, while new heat pumps have a CoP of 4 and it is expected units with a CoP of 5 will be available within a few years.
Ynottingten 3y ago
In germany this topic was disucssed and is still discussed up and down and a TON of studies and caclulations exists.

bongobingo1 3y ago

We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and I would have to buy the heatpump from out of town, so getting any warranty/servicing might be more drama. And I really didnt want to listen to a cheap compressor tick-on all the time. Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. Feels like a rich mans game.

starbugs 3y ago
> Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. The high cost of the hardware, installation and maintenance suggests that you would rather "kill the planet" with the system installed?
- dkdbejwi383 3y ago
  I'm not sure whether your question is some kind of flippant accusation, but in case you're being genuine: I think the poster you quoted is saying something like: if I could afford to do the right thing for the planet, I would - but I cannot afford to and am forced to do something which I know is detrimental.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining such as system might be a good indicator of why that is (higher complexity). Just because a solution appears "green", it doesn't necessarily have to keep its promises. Especially when people do panic installations as has happened here in Germany, they might get sold on an idea rather than a reality. Hardly a benefit for the planet.

ghusto 3y ago

Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).

starbugs 3y ago
> Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Yep. I have looked at some newly built homes in my area. All of those that have heat pumps have flow heaters installed for hot water. So you have a COP of 1 there.
stephen_g 3y ago
Heat pumps for domestic hot water are basically always storage systems (I have a heat pump storage system and it's excellent). For heating radiators or underfloor it does work (and can be incredibly efficient) to do constant flow but it wouldn't work well to do for showers etc.
- shagie 3y ago
  Showers are also a source of lost energy... flushing all that hot water out of the house. From a few years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/04/your-shower-is-wasting-huge-amounts-of-energy-and-water-heres-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20... This gets into drain water heat recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced-plumbing/drain-water-recovery/ https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced...
acdha 3y ago
A good heat pump water heater will have an insulated storage tank and backup resistance heat. Ours has plenty of water for a long shower but if you drain it faster than it can pull heat out of the ambient environment, the resistive heat kicks in (you can disable this if wanted) and you’ll continuously get warm water. We generally only notice that with guests in the winter - in the summer, it’s basically free since we’d be using the main heat pump to cool the house anyway.