9 ms·

Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

66 points by rustoo 3y ago

robertlagrant 3y ago
The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.
- merry_flame 3y ago
  Are we reading the same article ? "The survey found that two-thirds of heat pump owners and 59% of gas boiler owners were satisfied even without extensive energy efficiency upgrades."
- starbugs 3y ago
  This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.
  - plexman 3y ago
    + it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficiency-standards-for-new-dwellings/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.
    - theGnuMe 3y ago
      Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.
      - soco 3y ago
        Or get subventions for insulation upgrades?
  - charlieyu1 3y ago
    Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent
    - Ynottingten 3y ago
      No clue. The last time i looked, the prices for a heat pump from known companies like LG or viesmann are similiar than a gas burner. And with a heat pump you can even invest in PV and use that to be even more independent and later you can leverage an EV car either by never buying gas again or for storage. Overall a very smart concept. But perhaps he lives in a country were energy is very cheap, will stay cheap and is very stable?
    - saltcured 3y ago
      I think the answer depends largely on the retrofitting cost, then less so on local market conditions. I.e. a niche market has fewer trained technicians and higher margins. But the retrofitting issues can be substantial, particularly when it triggers updated building code enforcement. An older house with natural gas heating and no air-conditioning may need major electrical upgrades to support a heat pump system. Others may require ducts to be replaced. Or, other invasive work to meet newer insulation standards. Some houses might have some fluid-based radiant heating and require rework because it was designed for the higher fluid temperatures of a boiler while a heat pump system would use lower temperatures and higher flow rates. Also, many homes may be subject to some kind of aesthetic rules which rule out the mini-split systems popular in Asia. The owner cannot just bolt new equipment or conduits to the exterior of the house. Instead, the above retrofitting tasks turn into major renovation jobs to tear apart interior walls.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.
    - soco 3y ago
      5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Thlom 3y ago
        This number is more or less the same in Norway as well for air-to-air pumps without subsidies. Keep in mind that oil/gas heating and such is not normal, we've used electricity and firewood for heating for the most part. So replacing electric heaters with a heat pump will drastically reduce electricity costs, improve air quality and improve heating. Really a no brainer.
        starbugs 3y ago
        Ok that makes sense then. Most people here will compare against an existing gas or oil heating installation I guess...
      - jltsiren 3y ago
        That's what news articles and the companies installing heat pumps have been saying since ~2005. Had those estimates been substantially wrong, we'd know it by now. The only subsidy is the deduction for hiring household help. If you hire outside help for any purpose, you get a tax deduction based on the wages you pay.
  - soco 3y ago
    We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      > We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Well, the calculations from the providers are highly likely to be "optimized". I would suggest the first point one might check is if the given COP is realistic. Usually it isn't.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    Wouldn't it take longer to pay off on a well-insulated home? That's the sort of home that doesn't use much gas to begin with.
    - RetroTechie 3y ago
      1) Good insulation means you can use a smaller (cheaper) heat pump. Or it doesn't need to work hard most of the time & is therefore likely to last longer. 2) Having that heat pump removes the need for a natural gas hookup - and fixed-rate monthly cost that comes with it regardless how much gas is used.
    - bzzzt 3y ago
      Of course, you can't save what you don't spend ;) A very well insulated home can rely on only a heat pump.
  - timbit42 3y ago
    Why do you doubt anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system? I bought and paid for two heat pumps twelve years ago and the reduction in energy costs resulted in them paying for themselves after 11 years. The cost of ownership was simply the purchase and installation cost as I did not take out a loan or receive any government funding. There was virtually no maintenance required except cleaning the humidity drain half a dozen times. Right now I'm waiting to see how long they last before they fail so I can calculate the total amount of savings. I should also point out that because my heat pumps are 12 years old, they only have a CoP of 3, while new heat pumps have a CoP of 4 and it is expected units with a CoP of 5 will be available within a few years.
  - Ynottingten 3y ago
    In germany this topic was disucssed and is still discussed up and down and a TON of studies and caclulations exists.
- bongobingo1 3y ago
  We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and I would have to buy the heatpump from out of town, so getting any warranty/servicing might be more drama. And I really didnt want to listen to a cheap compressor tick-on all the time. Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. Feels like a rich mans game.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. The high cost of the hardware, installation and maintenance suggests that you would rather "kill the planet" with the system installed?
    - dkdbejwi383 3y ago
      I'm not sure whether your question is some kind of flippant accusation, but in case you're being genuine: I think the poster you quoted is saying something like: if I could afford to do the right thing for the planet, I would - but I cannot afford to and am forced to do something which I know is detrimental.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        > kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining such as system might be a good indicator of why that is (higher complexity). Just because a solution appears "green", it doesn't necessarily have to keep its promises. Especially when people do panic installations as has happened here in Germany, they might get sold on an idea rather than a reality. Hardly a benefit for the planet.
- ghusto 3y ago
  Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Yep. I have looked at some newly built homes in my area. All of those that have heat pumps have flow heaters installed for hot water. So you have a COP of 1 there.
  - stephen_g 3y ago
    Heat pumps for domestic hot water are basically always storage systems (I have a heat pump storage system and it's excellent). For heating radiators or underfloor it does work (and can be incredibly efficient) to do constant flow but it wouldn't work well to do for showers etc.
    - shagie 3y ago
      Showers are also a source of lost energy... flushing all that hot water out of the house. From a few years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/04/your-shower-is-wasting-huge-amounts-of-energy-and-water-heres-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20... This gets into drain water heat recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced-plumbing/drain-water-recovery/ https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced...
  - acdha 3y ago
    A good heat pump water heater will have an insulated storage tank and backup resistance heat. Ours has plenty of water for a long shower but if you drain it faster than it can pull heat out of the ambient environment, the resistive heat kicks in (you can disable this if wanted) and you’ll continuously get warm water. We generally only notice that with guests in the winter - in the summer, it’s basically free since we’d be using the main heat pump to cool the house anyway.
dralley 3y ago
I don't doubt that heat pumps are cheaper than gas bottles for a moment, especially in Europe, but it sounds like they also added a bunch of insulation at the same time as installing the heat pump. Anyway, newer heat pump systems are great. I'm low-key hoping the 13 year old gas furnace in my attic kicks the bucket so I can replace it with another of the same system we use to heat/cool the downstairs.
- soco 3y ago
  If it kicks the bucket in winter you'll be in a bad place. On top of it, our local laws (Swiss) forbid you replacing old tech, so you will have to go immediately through the hoops of quickly installing a heat pump of sorts (good luck with that).
  - dralley 3y ago
    I'm in the US, my downstairs gas package unit actually stopped working in November and we had a new system installed within a week of accepting the offer.
krona 3y ago
I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barracks: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/30/military-trials-cutting-edge-electric-boilers-heat-pumps/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/30/military-trials-...
- Faaak 3y ago
  > Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption
  - l3x 3y ago
    I expect it's more to do with how poorly insulated most UK homes are
    - walthamstow 3y ago
      Insulation and having outdoor space to put the thing without sacrificing half your garden.
  - infecto 3y ago
    The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot about boiler systems but I cannot imagine these are that revolutionary and there are other similar systems out there, it is just an electric boiler with a smart energy/battery storage system to capture the off peak energy...seems like you could do something similar with a standalone electric boiler and a battery backup system.
Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
Heat pumps could actually lead to a net increase in energy usage in northern areas because they can double as air conditioners for cooling in the summer. Normally homes in northern areas don't have AC and you just have to get through the relative short period when its hot enough that it would be nice to have. But with heat pumps, you just switch to AC mode. Also, those periods of hot weather are getting hotter and longer in duration.
- eutectic 3y ago
  But demand is lower in the summer, so this shouldn't effect renewable energy requirements.
  - jwestbury 3y ago
    This is regionally specific. The US south, for instance, sees higher usage in summer due to air conditioning demand.
    - infecto 3y ago
      The whole premise for the original parent comment was talking about Northern regions. So yes, this whole thread is regionally specific. Talking about the south is silly because in most of the southern US it is near unlivable with humidity to go without A/C.
    - notyourwork 3y ago
      That has little to nothing to do with heat pumps does it?
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
    This is a good point, summer time could potentially use solar.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      And with sensible planning like overcooling during day-time. It could actually utilize the production effectively. Too hot nights are still relatively rare.
Faaak 3y ago
I (self installed) a heat pump and I love it. Sure, it's not really efficient (COP ~1.5) when it's -10C outside, but this happens 1 day per year. Most of the time the COP is around 4: that means that it uses 1kWh of electricity to produce 4 units of heat. My electricity kWh is .17cts, so the final heat kWh is ~ 0.17/4 = 0.04cts, which is awesome. Using france's electricity production mix, that means that I can heat my house for 60/4 g/kWh = 15gCO2/kWh.
sublimefire 3y ago
It is a bit misleading. Insulation is the main cause of lower energy bills. Then, once your losses are at a minimum you just need a bit of a kick to keep the warmth. Any system will do once your energy losses are miniscule, e.g. think of the passive homes.
nmeofthestate 3y ago
I'd love to know more detail on the insulation as I live in a Victorian stone building. One person says "external walls internally insulated [...] and the loft insulation improved, a process she describes as “very invasive” but worthwhile." Presumably they're stripping off the internal lath-and-plaster from external walls then replacing with insulation-backed board. Maybe the the new room size is smaller meaning any plaster cornicing has to be ripped out/replaced. I can see why she calls it very invasive. Personally I find draughts to be a huge problem. When it's cold and windy it's especially cold inside. But I don't know how to fix draughts without risking dampness or rot - never found any government guidance on this. It's a huge pain and I am not sure there is an easy "insulate" solution for these old properties.
- jeffalyanak 3y ago
  You can probably buy "draft sticks" or something similar. They put out a little bit of smoke that you can use to find the source of your worst drafts so you can get them sealed.
jeffalyanak 3y ago
I'm a fan of heat pumps, but as a Canadian living in the UK I think the _first_ steps should be things like finding and patching up drafts, using double-glazed windows with low-e coatings, and improving insulation. Those will let you get the most out of an efficient heat pump.
- Valgrim 3y ago
  Don't forget heat recovery ventilation. The house I bought used originally a wood furnace which created a good draft of fresh air from the walls by sucking the ambient air into the chimney. Once the furnace had been replaced by an electric system (first radiator then heat pump), the air became stale in the house, causing all sorts of incomfort and humidity issues.
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  It's insane that buildings on the historic register are not permitted to install modern, efficient windows as mentioned in the article. Replicating the look 90%+ should be pretty easy, so why on earth would owners be banned from improving the efficiency of their home in a nearly transparent way. Insulation and air sealing should be heavily subsidized. Regardless of the energy source, using less energy in the first place has a compounding carbon benefit for the lifespan of the building (which is almost certainly multiples of the lifespan of the current heat source).
iamthepieman 3y ago
I was seriously in the market for a heat pump system for the upper floor of my home. The current oil fired furnace system works but oil is expensive and the heat from our pellet stove doesn't reach up to the second level very well. Then I started working at a co-working space that has a heat pump system and the HVAC techs are in here working on it a couple times a year as we wear parkas and hats because it's 10C in the building. Or it's summer time and I'm trying not to sweat on my keyboard. This led me to look more closely into reliability and longevity of these systems and the math just didn't add up, even with very optimistic values for MTBF and expected lifetime.
- Ynottingten 3y ago
  So you have had the experience of one space using a heat pump but you don't have more information regarding it? What type it was? How well insolated was the space? Did the manager keep the temperature low on purpose? What does the summer time and sweating to do with the heat pump? Is your house insulated?
  - iamthepieman 3y ago
    I did say I looked more closely at the details of such systems and the suitability of my house, insulation level, climate was part of of that. The singular experience was just the trigger to look into it and I determined that they aren't as great as the marketing makes them out to be. At least the models available in my area.
stillbourne 3y ago
I was just listening to an NPR story about heat pumps, they act like a refrigerator in reverse.
rojeee 3y ago
Live in rural England and have a heat pump with 7kW of solar PV and 16kWh of battery. Any outdoor temperature around 10 degrees the, heat pump keeps the house at 20C using about 1kW of power and is only drawing power for half the day. Warmer than 10C, the amount of power it uses is negligible. However, today it’s -1C and the heat pump is drawing nearly 3kW all day to keep the house at 20C. Imported 40kWh from the grid today mostly for heating. Price per kWh is about 27p. Not cheap. It all balances out when the days get longer and sunnier. Can generate 50+ kWh of electricity, which more than covers our usage so we export a fair bit. I set the heat pump to heat water to 55C between 2am to 5am and again between 2pm and 4pm if necessary. We also divert any excess electricity after usage and charging batteries to heating the water tank via immersion heater. Had 4 family member over for Christmas and we didn’t run out of hot water once! Pretty happy with it overall.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Can you add more solar?
  - rojeee 3y ago
    Can probably add a few more kW of solar PV but I'm not sure there's much point unfortunately. What I've realised is that the limiting factor is really the rubbish UK weather. Over the last 4 weeks the most I've generated in a day is 5kWh. I guess that will change in a month or two though when the days get longer and hopefully sunnier.
EdwardDiego 3y ago
In New Zealand, heat-pumps are the most common form of heating. Works great, far more cost effective than other forms of electrical heating. We've never really done boilers, previously it was mainly wood fires for heating. Coal used to be widely used, but we've banned burning coal in most residential areas, and woodburners in a lot of residential areas are subject to stringent regulation to improve air quality, we used to have phenomenal smog issues in winter due to temperature inversions and woodfires. My house still has two log-burners, but with our two heat-pumps and decent double glazing, we didn't need to light the fires last year. And the real bonus is that they can run in reverse and cool your house, which is amazing in the hot dry summers we get in my area.

66 points by rustoo 3y ago

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

merry_flame 3y ago
Are we reading the same article ? "The survey found that two-thirds of heat pump owners and 59% of gas boiler owners were satisfied even without extensive energy efficiency upgrades."
starbugs 3y ago
This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.
- plexman 3y ago
  + it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficiency-standards-for-new-dwellings/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.
  - theGnuMe 3y ago
    Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.
    - soco 3y ago
      Or get subventions for insulation upgrades?
- charlieyu1 3y ago
  Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent
  - Ynottingten 3y ago
    No clue. The last time i looked, the prices for a heat pump from known companies like LG or viesmann are similiar than a gas burner. And with a heat pump you can even invest in PV and use that to be even more independent and later you can leverage an EV car either by never buying gas again or for storage. Overall a very smart concept. But perhaps he lives in a country were energy is very cheap, will stay cheap and is very stable?
  - saltcured 3y ago
    I think the answer depends largely on the retrofitting cost, then less so on local market conditions. I.e. a niche market has fewer trained technicians and higher margins. But the retrofitting issues can be substantial, particularly when it triggers updated building code enforcement. An older house with natural gas heating and no air-conditioning may need major electrical upgrades to support a heat pump system. Others may require ducts to be replaced. Or, other invasive work to meet newer insulation standards. Some houses might have some fluid-based radiant heating and require rework because it was designed for the higher fluid temperatures of a boiler while a heat pump system would use lower temperatures and higher flow rates. Also, many homes may be subject to some kind of aesthetic rules which rule out the mini-split systems popular in Asia. The owner cannot just bolt new equipment or conduits to the exterior of the house. Instead, the above retrofitting tasks turn into major renovation jobs to tear apart interior walls.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.
  - soco 3y ago
    5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Thlom 3y ago
      This number is more or less the same in Norway as well for air-to-air pumps without subsidies. Keep in mind that oil/gas heating and such is not normal, we've used electricity and firewood for heating for the most part. So replacing electric heaters with a heat pump will drastically reduce electricity costs, improve air quality and improve heating. Really a no brainer.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        Ok that makes sense then. Most people here will compare against an existing gas or oil heating installation I guess...
    - jltsiren 3y ago
      That's what news articles and the companies installing heat pumps have been saying since ~2005. Had those estimates been substantially wrong, we'd know it by now. The only subsidy is the deduction for hiring household help. If you hire outside help for any purpose, you get a tax deduction based on the wages you pay.
- soco 3y ago
  We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Well, the calculations from the providers are highly likely to be "optimized". I would suggest the first point one might check is if the given COP is realistic. Usually it isn't.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Wouldn't it take longer to pay off on a well-insulated home? That's the sort of home that doesn't use much gas to begin with.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    1) Good insulation means you can use a smaller (cheaper) heat pump. Or it doesn't need to work hard most of the time & is therefore likely to last longer. 2) Having that heat pump removes the need for a natural gas hookup - and fixed-rate monthly cost that comes with it regardless how much gas is used.
  - bzzzt 3y ago
    Of course, you can't save what you don't spend ;) A very well insulated home can rely on only a heat pump.
- timbit42 3y ago
  Why do you doubt anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system? I bought and paid for two heat pumps twelve years ago and the reduction in energy costs resulted in them paying for themselves after 11 years. The cost of ownership was simply the purchase and installation cost as I did not take out a loan or receive any government funding. There was virtually no maintenance required except cleaning the humidity drain half a dozen times. Right now I'm waiting to see how long they last before they fail so I can calculate the total amount of savings. I should also point out that because my heat pumps are 12 years old, they only have a CoP of 3, while new heat pumps have a CoP of 4 and it is expected units with a CoP of 5 will be available within a few years.
- Ynottingten 3y ago
  In germany this topic was disucssed and is still discussed up and down and a TON of studies and caclulations exists.
bongobingo1 3y ago
We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and I would have to buy the heatpump from out of town, so getting any warranty/servicing might be more drama. And I really didnt want to listen to a cheap compressor tick-on all the time. Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. Feels like a rich mans game.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. The high cost of the hardware, installation and maintenance suggests that you would rather "kill the planet" with the system installed?
  - dkdbejwi383 3y ago
    I'm not sure whether your question is some kind of flippant accusation, but in case you're being genuine: I think the poster you quoted is saying something like: if I could afford to do the right thing for the planet, I would - but I cannot afford to and am forced to do something which I know is detrimental.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      > kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining such as system might be a good indicator of why that is (higher complexity). Just because a solution appears "green", it doesn't necessarily have to keep its promises. Especially when people do panic installations as has happened here in Germany, they might get sold on an idea rather than a reality. Hardly a benefit for the planet.
ghusto 3y ago
Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).
- starbugs 3y ago
  > Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Yep. I have looked at some newly built homes in my area. All of those that have heat pumps have flow heaters installed for hot water. So you have a COP of 1 there.
- stephen_g 3y ago
  Heat pumps for domestic hot water are basically always storage systems (I have a heat pump storage system and it's excellent). For heating radiators or underfloor it does work (and can be incredibly efficient) to do constant flow but it wouldn't work well to do for showers etc.
  - shagie 3y ago
    Showers are also a source of lost energy... flushing all that hot water out of the house. From a few years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/04/your-shower-is-wasting-huge-amounts-of-energy-and-water-heres-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20... This gets into drain water heat recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/drain-water-heat-recovery https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced-plumbing/drain-water-recovery/ https://www.kitchenandbathclassics.com/eco-friendly/advanced...
- acdha 3y ago
  A good heat pump water heater will have an insulated storage tank and backup resistance heat. Ours has plenty of water for a long shower but if you drain it faster than it can pull heat out of the ambient environment, the resistive heat kicks in (you can disable this if wanted) and you’ll continuously get warm water. We generally only notice that with guests in the winter - in the summer, it’s basically free since we’d be using the main heat pump to cool the house anyway.

dralley 3y ago

I don't doubt that heat pumps are cheaper than gas bottles for a moment, especially in Europe, but it sounds like they also added a bunch of insulation at the same time as installing the heat pump. Anyway, newer heat pump systems are great. I'm low-key hoping the 13 year old gas furnace in my attic kicks the bucket so I can replace it with another of the same system we use to heat/cool the downstairs.

soco 3y ago
If it kicks the bucket in winter you'll be in a bad place. On top of it, our local laws (Swiss) forbid you replacing old tech, so you will have to go immediately through the hoops of quickly installing a heat pump of sorts (good luck with that).
- dralley 3y ago
  I'm in the US, my downstairs gas package unit actually stopped working in November and we had a new system installed within a week of accepting the offer.

krona 3y ago

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barracks: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/30/military-trials-cutting-edge-electric-boilers-heat-pumps/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/30/military-trials-...

Faaak 3y ago
> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption
- l3x 3y ago
  I expect it's more to do with how poorly insulated most UK homes are
  - walthamstow 3y ago
    Insulation and having outdoor space to put the thing without sacrificing half your garden.
- infecto 3y ago
  The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot about boiler systems but I cannot imagine these are that revolutionary and there are other similar systems out there, it is just an electric boiler with a smart energy/battery storage system to capture the off peak energy...seems like you could do something similar with a standalone electric boiler and a battery backup system.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago

Heat pumps could actually lead to a net increase in energy usage in northern areas because they can double as air conditioners for cooling in the summer. Normally homes in northern areas don't have AC and you just have to get through the relative short period when its hot enough that it would be nice to have. But with heat pumps, you just switch to AC mode. Also, those periods of hot weather are getting hotter and longer in duration.

eutectic 3y ago
But demand is lower in the summer, so this shouldn't effect renewable energy requirements.
- jwestbury 3y ago
  This is regionally specific. The US south, for instance, sees higher usage in summer due to air conditioning demand.
  - infecto 3y ago
    The whole premise for the original parent comment was talking about Northern regions. So yes, this whole thread is regionally specific. Talking about the south is silly because in most of the southern US it is near unlivable with humidity to go without A/C.
  - notyourwork 3y ago
    That has little to nothing to do with heat pumps does it?
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  This is a good point, summer time could potentially use solar.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    And with sensible planning like overcooling during day-time. It could actually utilize the production effectively. Too hot nights are still relatively rare.

Faaak 3y ago

I (self installed) a heat pump and I love it. Sure, it's not really efficient (COP ~1.5) when it's -10C outside, but this happens 1 day per year. Most of the time the COP is around 4: that means that it uses 1kWh of electricity to produce 4 units of heat. My electricity kWh is .17cts, so the final heat kWh is ~ 0.17/4 = 0.04cts, which is awesome. Using france's electricity production mix, that means that I can heat my house for 60/4 g/kWh = 15gCO2/kWh.

sublimefire 3y ago

It is a bit misleading. Insulation is the main cause of lower energy bills. Then, once your losses are at a minimum you just need a bit of a kick to keep the warmth. Any system will do once your energy losses are miniscule, e.g. think of the passive homes.

nmeofthestate 3y ago

I'd love to know more detail on the insulation as I live in a Victorian stone building. One person says "external walls internally insulated [...] and the loft insulation improved, a process she describes as “very invasive” but worthwhile." Presumably they're stripping off the internal lath-and-plaster from external walls then replacing with insulation-backed board. Maybe the the new room size is smaller meaning any plaster cornicing has to be ripped out/replaced. I can see why she calls it very invasive. Personally I find draughts to be a huge problem. When it's cold and windy it's especially cold inside. But I don't know how to fix draughts without risking dampness or rot - never found any government guidance on this. It's a huge pain and I am not sure there is an easy "insulate" solution for these old properties.

jeffalyanak 3y ago
You can probably buy "draft sticks" or something similar. They put out a little bit of smoke that you can use to find the source of your worst drafts so you can get them sealed.

jeffalyanak 3y ago

I'm a fan of heat pumps, but as a Canadian living in the UK I think the _first_ steps should be things like finding and patching up drafts, using double-glazed windows with low-e coatings, and improving insulation. Those will let you get the most out of an efficient heat pump.

Valgrim 3y ago
Don't forget heat recovery ventilation. The house I bought used originally a wood furnace which created a good draft of fresh air from the walls by sucking the ambient air into the chimney. Once the furnace had been replaced by an electric system (first radiator then heat pump), the air became stale in the house, causing all sorts of incomfort and humidity issues.
theluketaylor 3y ago
It's insane that buildings on the historic register are not permitted to install modern, efficient windows as mentioned in the article. Replicating the look 90%+ should be pretty easy, so why on earth would owners be banned from improving the efficiency of their home in a nearly transparent way. Insulation and air sealing should be heavily subsidized. Regardless of the energy source, using less energy in the first place has a compounding carbon benefit for the lifespan of the building (which is almost certainly multiples of the lifespan of the current heat source).

iamthepieman 3y ago

I was seriously in the market for a heat pump system for the upper floor of my home. The current oil fired furnace system works but oil is expensive and the heat from our pellet stove doesn't reach up to the second level very well. Then I started working at a co-working space that has a heat pump system and the HVAC techs are in here working on it a couple times a year as we wear parkas and hats because it's 10C in the building. Or it's summer time and I'm trying not to sweat on my keyboard. This led me to look more closely into reliability and longevity of these systems and the math just didn't add up, even with very optimistic values for MTBF and expected lifetime.

Ynottingten 3y ago
So you have had the experience of one space using a heat pump but you don't have more information regarding it? What type it was? How well insolated was the space? Did the manager keep the temperature low on purpose? What does the summer time and sweating to do with the heat pump? Is your house insulated?
- iamthepieman 3y ago
  I did say I looked more closely at the details of such systems and the suitability of my house, insulation level, climate was part of of that. The singular experience was just the trigger to look into it and I determined that they aren't as great as the marketing makes them out to be. At least the models available in my area.

stillbourne 3y ago

I was just listening to an NPR story about heat pumps, they act like a refrigerator in reverse.

rojeee 3y ago

Live in rural England and have a heat pump with 7kW of solar PV and 16kWh of battery. Any outdoor temperature around 10 degrees the, heat pump keeps the house at 20C using about 1kW of power and is only drawing power for half the day. Warmer than 10C, the amount of power it uses is negligible. However, today it’s -1C and the heat pump is drawing nearly 3kW all day to keep the house at 20C. Imported 40kWh from the grid today mostly for heating. Price per kWh is about 27p. Not cheap. It all balances out when the days get longer and sunnier. Can generate 50+ kWh of electricity, which more than covers our usage so we export a fair bit. I set the heat pump to heat water to 55C between 2am to 5am and again between 2pm and 4pm if necessary. We also divert any excess electricity after usage and charging batteries to heating the water tank via immersion heater. Had 4 family member over for Christmas and we didn’t run out of hot water once! Pretty happy with it overall.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Can you add more solar?
- rojeee 3y ago
  Can probably add a few more kW of solar PV but I'm not sure there's much point unfortunately. What I've realised is that the limiting factor is really the rubbish UK weather. Over the last 4 weeks the most I've generated in a day is 5kWh. I guess that will change in a month or two though when the days get longer and hopefully sunnier.

EdwardDiego 3y ago

In New Zealand, heat-pumps are the most common form of heating. Works great, far more cost effective than other forms of electrical heating. We've never really done boilers, previously it was mainly wood fires for heating. Coal used to be widely used, but we've banned burning coal in most residential areas, and woodburners in a lot of residential areas are subject to stringent regulation to improve air quality, we used to have phenomenal smog issues in winter due to temperature inversions and woodfires. My house still has two log-burners, but with our two heat-pumps and decent double glazing, we didn't need to light the fires last year. And the real bonus is that they can run in reverse and cool your house, which is amazing in the hot dry summers we get in my area.