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> I do think that history has treated Mr. Armstrong unfairly for the essential act of his cheating. > To be sure, Mr. Armstrong brought much of his disparate t

by ajcp 3y ago

> I do think that history has treated Mr. Armstrong unfairly for the essential act of his cheating. > To be sure, Mr. Armstrong brought much of his disparate treatment on himself. Perhaps history, but I think modernity has been far too kind to Mr. Armstrong. I'm floored that Lance Armstrong is still given a degree of celebrity and room as a public figure, and still more that he can make money off of that. That his celebrity and accolades were obtained fraudulently and all the while he openly and literally tried to destroy the lives and reputations of those who said as much stand in stark contrast to the space he is given today.

Swizec 3y ago
> That his celebrity and accolades were obtained fraudulently Important to remember that when they took Armstrong’s trophies away, the next person who hadn’t yet been caught doping finished 10th. During that era of cycling, 87% of top 10 finishers tested positive for doping at least once. https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-... That doesn’t excuse his doping, of course. It just means that at the time doping was a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling.
- ajcp 3y ago
  > baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling. I agree, and for cheating in a sport Mr. Armstrong should be stripped of those awards given for such feats and no other judgement outside of that need be applied. However, Mr. Armstrong did not simply cheat; he actively and openly sought to destroy the lives and reputations of those who said otherwise. THAT was not a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels. For those actions outside of cycling he should be stripped of the celebrity and accolades he was given outside of cycling as well.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Fair. I was not aware of all those other things. I guess he gets to keep the celebrity because he was the most successful American cyclist. America number one and all that :) (I’m not a american so I find that attitude silly but very noticeable)
    - discreteevent 3y ago
      I don't think it has much to do with being American. Cycling worships the greats no matter where they are from (take Pantani for example). It's an extremely tough sport with people who historically came from tough backgrounds. When a cyclist gets badly injured and you see them cycling on - it's because they have no other choice. They will lose their livelihood if they don't. None of this excuses drugs but it might explain why people identify with and often admire them no matter what country they come from.
    - mcv 3y ago
      There have been other great American cyclists that haven't been caught with doping. Like Greg LeMond: fantastic tour winner, a major critic of doping in cycling, and one of the first to express doubts about the legitimacy of Armstrong's victory. That is the great American cyclist people should be admiring.
      - jimt1234 3y ago
        Agreed. And still, LeMond was yet another victim of Armstrong. https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/walsh-on-lemond-enduring-the-vengeance-of-armstrong/ https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/walsh-on-lemond-enduring...
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    so he is a "villian" .. and due to his trajectory, a famous "villian" .. is this really new? you suggest a scarlet letter?
- notatoad 3y ago
  as the article touches on here, there's two things that Lance Armstrong deserves criticism for: one is being a cheater. the other is being a raging asshole who was outspoken against doping, published multiple books professing how clean he was and how all the doping rumours were just people out to get him, claimed the whole country of france was dishonest, accused his competitors of doping, accused other cyclists who he didn't even race against of doping... all while he was not only pumping himself full of drugs to win races, but also running his team's doping program and pushing his teammates to risk their own health by taking performance enhancing drugs. the second part of this is what he doesn't deserve any forgiveness for.
  - nradov 3y ago
    The book "The Secret Race" by Lance Armstrong's teammate Tyler Hamilton gives a good perspective on what was happening at the time. At one point Hamilton was standing on an Italian street trying to hide the blood dripping down his arm from a botched transfusion, which was simultaneously horrifying and hilarious. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212873/the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton-and-daniel-coyle/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212873/the-secret-r...
- jdietrich 3y ago
  >at the time doping was a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling To a great extent, that was the direct fault of Lance Armstrong. He was the chief enforcer of the code of silence around doping. 1998 could have been a turning point for cycling after the Festina affair, but Armstrong scuppered any chance of that; where others saw the shame of a sport in turmoil, Armstrong saw opportunity. Armstrong's comeback after cancer was a story that sponsors loved, he was the first American to be a serious yellow jersey prospect for nearly a decade, so he brought an unprecedented amount of money into the sport. Armstrong effectively became too big to fail, ruthlessly dominating the sport around him. When riders spoke out, he had the power to make them outcasts. When journalists tried to reveal the truth, he had the resources to silence them in court. The bitterness that many in the cycling community feel towards Armstrong isn't really about the doping or the stolen yellow jerseys - it's about all the lives that he ruined in the process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lanc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel
- gonzo41 3y ago
  Bill Burr had a fantastic Conan O'Brian interview about this. Made that point. Our doped up guy, beat your doped up guys.
- michael1999 3y ago
  Armstrong's big crime wasn't doping. Everyone at the top was doing it. His crime was going after his team mate Hamilton and the journalists who exposed his cheating for libel. To go to court and call the truth a lie, and a lie the true is a crime. Armstrong is a narcissistic liar. I wish the Sunday Times had done him for millions.
nradov 3y ago
For those interested in the Armstrong saga it's worth listening to his interview in the Peter Attia Drive podcast. For personal reasons that I won't go into here I still feel betrayed by his cheating and vindictive lying, but hearing about what has been doing since partially redeemed him in my eyes. https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/
- ajcp 3y ago
  Very interested in listening, thanks for the recommendation!
- loeg 3y ago
  It was an interesting interview.
- buzzdenver 3y ago
  Can you describe in a sentence or two what he has been doing? That 2-hour podcast is quite the commitment.
  - ajcp 3y ago
    Having just listened to it seemingly being proud[1] and coming across as completely unrepentant. The podcast only reenforced my view that Armstrong should not be given any form of celebrity or space on any platform. He needs to just go away. 1. "More than anything I'm just really proud...proud I didn't quit...with no support or anything."
    - loeg 3y ago
      Can you give a rough timestamp for that quote to establish some context?
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        You can get an exact timestamp. I will show you how on desktop and then you can post it here. 1. Go to the link https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ 2. At the bottom "Watch Podcast on Youtube" 3. Click "More" on the Description field 4. It will expand 5. Scroll down past the field to Chapters 6. Scroll past that to "Explore the Podcast" 7. You will see a section titled "Transcript" 8. Click "Show Transcript" 9. A dialog box will open on the right 10. Use Cmd-F on Mac or Ctrl-F on Windows/Linux to get your browser's Find in Page functionality 11. Type in "proud" 12. You'll find it quite quickly past the 2 hour mark
stevage 3y ago
>and all the while he openly and literally tried to destroy the lives and reputations of those who said as much Not just "tried", he completely destroyed a couple of journalists' careers. This is not something that should ever be forgiven.
- ajcp 3y ago
  I agree.
- 303uru 3y ago
  Journalists and fellow cyclists. He destroyed Tyler Hamilton completely.
  - 5555624 3y ago
    I think Hamilton's two failed drug tests destroyed his career far more than Armstrong.
    - 303uru 3y ago
      That's disingenuous at best. Lance was simultaneously dodging tests while siccing the authorities on any cyclist who dare challenge him on the road.
      - fieryskiff17 3y ago
        [dead]
      - 5555624 3y ago
        Lance may have trashed his reputation; but, Hamilton didn't detail Armstrong's doping until after he was serving his second, eight year suspension. (And Armstrong had nothing to do with Hamilton's claim that he was a tetragametic chimera, with two distinct DNA profiles.)
KennyBlanken 3y ago
Far too kind to his team coaches, doctors and nutritionists, too. People like Allen Lim who made millions off books and supplements. Lim almost certainly knew what was going on. If you buy Skratch products you're directly benefiting people who stood right next to Armstrong.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
Armstrong is basically a charming narcissist. Giving him leeway for his destructive behavior isn't really warranted. Here is a good recent interview with LeMond that delves into the Armstrong era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xq5PQvBFvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xq5PQvBFvI Remember that Trek dropped LeMond's bike line because he was speaking out about the cheating. Another recent interview of Armstrong with a sympathetic Bill Maher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlDKKez4q7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlDKKez4q7o

by ajcp 3y ago

Swizec 3y ago

> That his celebrity and accolades were obtained fraudulently Important to remember that when they took Armstrong’s trophies away, the next person who hadn’t yet been caught doping finished 10th. During that era of cycling, 87% of top 10 finishers tested positive for doping at least once. https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-... That doesn’t excuse his doping, of course. It just means that at the time doping was a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling.

ajcp 3y ago
> baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling. I agree, and for cheating in a sport Mr. Armstrong should be stripped of those awards given for such feats and no other judgement outside of that need be applied. However, Mr. Armstrong did not simply cheat; he actively and openly sought to destroy the lives and reputations of those who said otherwise. THAT was not a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels. For those actions outside of cycling he should be stripped of the celebrity and accolades he was given outside of cycling as well.
- Swizec 3y ago
  Fair. I was not aware of all those other things. I guess he gets to keep the celebrity because he was the most successful American cyclist. America number one and all that :) (I’m not a american so I find that attitude silly but very noticeable)
  - discreteevent 3y ago
    I don't think it has much to do with being American. Cycling worships the greats no matter where they are from (take Pantani for example). It's an extremely tough sport with people who historically came from tough backgrounds. When a cyclist gets badly injured and you see them cycling on - it's because they have no other choice. They will lose their livelihood if they don't. None of this excuses drugs but it might explain why people identify with and often admire them no matter what country they come from.
  - mcv 3y ago
    There have been other great American cyclists that haven't been caught with doping. Like Greg LeMond: fantastic tour winner, a major critic of doping in cycling, and one of the first to express doubts about the legitimacy of Armstrong's victory. That is the great American cyclist people should be admiring.
    - jimt1234 3y ago
      Agreed. And still, LeMond was yet another victim of Armstrong. https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/walsh-on-lemond-enduring-the-vengeance-of-armstrong/ https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/walsh-on-lemond-enduring...
- mistrial9 3y ago
  so he is a "villian" .. and due to his trajectory, a famous "villian" .. is this really new? you suggest a scarlet letter?
notatoad 3y ago
as the article touches on here, there's two things that Lance Armstrong deserves criticism for: one is being a cheater. the other is being a raging asshole who was outspoken against doping, published multiple books professing how clean he was and how all the doping rumours were just people out to get him, claimed the whole country of france was dishonest, accused his competitors of doping, accused other cyclists who he didn't even race against of doping... all while he was not only pumping himself full of drugs to win races, but also running his team's doping program and pushing his teammates to risk their own health by taking performance enhancing drugs. the second part of this is what he doesn't deserve any forgiveness for.
- nradov 3y ago
  The book "The Secret Race" by Lance Armstrong's teammate Tyler Hamilton gives a good perspective on what was happening at the time. At one point Hamilton was standing on an Italian street trying to hide the blood dripping down his arm from a botched transfusion, which was simultaneously horrifying and hilarious. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212873/the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton-and-daniel-coyle/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212873/the-secret-r...
jdietrich 3y ago
>at the time doping was a baseline requirement for competing at the top levels of cycling To a great extent, that was the direct fault of Lance Armstrong. He was the chief enforcer of the code of silence around doping. 1998 could have been a turning point for cycling after the Festina affair, but Armstrong scuppered any chance of that; where others saw the shame of a sport in turmoil, Armstrong saw opportunity. Armstrong's comeback after cancer was a story that sponsors loved, he was the first American to be a serious yellow jersey prospect for nearly a decade, so he brought an unprecedented amount of money into the sport. Armstrong effectively became too big to fail, ruthlessly dominating the sport around him. When riders spoke out, he had the power to make them outcasts. When journalists tried to reveal the truth, he had the resources to silence them in court. The bitterness that many in the cycling community feel towards Armstrong isn't really about the doping or the stolen yellow jerseys - it's about all the lives that he ruined in the process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lanc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel
gonzo41 3y ago
Bill Burr had a fantastic Conan O'Brian interview about this. Made that point. Our doped up guy, beat your doped up guys.
michael1999 3y ago
Armstrong's big crime wasn't doping. Everyone at the top was doing it. His crime was going after his team mate Hamilton and the journalists who exposed his cheating for libel. To go to court and call the truth a lie, and a lie the true is a crime. Armstrong is a narcissistic liar. I wish the Sunday Times had done him for millions.

nradov 3y ago

For those interested in the Armstrong saga it's worth listening to his interview in the Peter Attia Drive podcast. For personal reasons that I won't go into here I still feel betrayed by his cheating and vindictive lying, but hearing about what has been doing since partially redeemed him in my eyes. https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/

ajcp 3y ago
Very interested in listening, thanks for the recommendation!
loeg 3y ago
It was an interesting interview.
buzzdenver 3y ago
Can you describe in a sentence or two what he has been doing? That 2-hour podcast is quite the commitment.
- ajcp 3y ago
  Having just listened to it seemingly being proud[1] and coming across as completely unrepentant. The podcast only reenforced my view that Armstrong should not be given any form of celebrity or space on any platform. He needs to just go away. 1. "More than anything I'm just really proud...proud I didn't quit...with no support or anything."
  - loeg 3y ago
    Can you give a rough timestamp for that quote to establish some context?
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      You can get an exact timestamp. I will show you how on desktop and then you can post it here. 1. Go to the link https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ https://peterattiamd.com/lancearmstrong/ 2. At the bottom "Watch Podcast on Youtube" 3. Click "More" on the Description field 4. It will expand 5. Scroll down past the field to Chapters 6. Scroll past that to "Explore the Podcast" 7. You will see a section titled "Transcript" 8. Click "Show Transcript" 9. A dialog box will open on the right 10. Use Cmd-F on Mac or Ctrl-F on Windows/Linux to get your browser's Find in Page functionality 11. Type in "proud" 12. You'll find it quite quickly past the 2 hour mark

stevage 3y ago

>and all the while he openly and literally tried to destroy the lives and reputations of those who said as much Not just "tried", he completely destroyed a couple of journalists' careers. This is not something that should ever be forgiven.

ajcp 3y ago
I agree.
303uru 3y ago
Journalists and fellow cyclists. He destroyed Tyler Hamilton completely.
- 5555624 3y ago
  I think Hamilton's two failed drug tests destroyed his career far more than Armstrong.
  - 303uru 3y ago
    That's disingenuous at best. Lance was simultaneously dodging tests while siccing the authorities on any cyclist who dare challenge him on the road.
    - fieryskiff17 3y ago
      [dead]
    - 5555624 3y ago
      Lance may have trashed his reputation; but, Hamilton didn't detail Armstrong's doping until after he was serving his second, eight year suspension. (And Armstrong had nothing to do with Hamilton's claim that he was a tetragametic chimera, with two distinct DNA profiles.)

KennyBlanken 3y ago

Far too kind to his team coaches, doctors and nutritionists, too. People like Allen Lim who made millions off books and supplements. Lim almost certainly knew what was going on. If you buy Skratch products you're directly benefiting people who stood right next to Armstrong.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago

Armstrong is basically a charming narcissist. Giving him leeway for his destructive behavior isn't really warranted. Here is a good recent interview with LeMond that delves into the Armstrong era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xq5PQvBFvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xq5PQvBFvI Remember that Trek dropped LeMond's bike line because he was speaking out about the cheating. Another recent interview of Armstrong with a sympathetic Bill Maher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlDKKez4q7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlDKKez4q7o