8 ms·
True Name – Mastercard (2022)
- kefka_p 3y ago[flagged]
- blairbeckwith 3y ago> New research by Mastercard across 16 countries in North America and Europe revealed that 59% of people who identity as nonbinary say they feel unsafe while shopping We should do what we can to make life easier for everyone, but we should stop encouraging and accommodating this “everything makes me feel unsafe” attitude. It harms everyone when we redefine safety to include awkwardness or very minor psychological discomfort.
- madeofpalk 3y agoWhat’s your objection? That people’s ID and cards shouldn’t contain their name?
- gruez 3y agoFrom the OP: >but we should stop encouraging and accommodating this “everything makes me feel unsafe” attitude. It harms everyone when we redefine safety to include awkwardness or very minor psychological discomfort. It's pretty clear that the thing he's objecting to is the inflation of "feel unsafe" to include "awkwardness or very minor psychological discomfort", which might draw attention to the issue in the short term, but over the long term dilutes the term and makes the issue worse. It's like the euphemism treadmill but in reverse.
- madeofpalk 3y agoWho are you (or OP) to tell someone how they should or should not feel. If someone says they feel unsafe, maybe we should default to believing them rather than minimising them. A tiny bit of compassion and empathy goes a long way.
- gruez 3y ago>If someone says they feel unsafe, maybe we should default to believing them rather than minimising them. A tiny bit of compassion and empathy goes a long way. Okay but surely you must agree that there are limits to how much we as a society should believe? Portraying yourself as being oppressed is an effective way to garner sympathy and resources from society, so people are incentivized to use language that makes their plight seem worse. That's not to say everyone making such claims are acting in bad faith, or even misrepresenting their internal feelings, but we can't take everyone's statements at face value either.
- mcphage 3y ago> Okay but surely you must agree that there are limits to how much we as a society should believe? There are limits, but the idea that American society is too nice, or takes concerns too seriously, is beyond laughable.
- madeofpalk 3y ago> but we can't take everyone's statements at face value either In the context of this article, why not? Why are we objecting to "the name on my credit card makes me feel uncomfortable and I wish I could change it"?
- GloomyBoots 3y agoPeople can feel unsafe for a variety of reasons. Characterizing your "side" on this issue as the sole champion of compassion and empathy is a dishonest way to avoid rational debate. We understand that people with schizophrenia have delusions which result from their condition. Those delusions often cause them to feel unsafe. We are compassionate and seek to treat the the underlying causes, not by joining in on their delusions. Gender dysphoria is much the same--transgender activists love to confound the issue by conflating dysphoria and intersex, but these are two entirely separate conditions. I have empathy and compassion for people struggling with dysphoria, and that expresses itself in my desire to help them get better.
- toothrot 3y agoIf it were only a very minor psychological discomfort, you'd be right. Unfortunately, other clientele in the store may harass you and follow you out of the store. As someone who has been on the receiving end of incredibly violent threats, being able to not be outed publicly is critical to everyday safety for trans people.
- namdnay 3y agoi thought the minor discomfort being referred to was that of changing your name and reissuing a new ID card. i can definitely understand how it would get grating to explain the change at every security check
- snotrockets 3y agoA legal name change is quite a chore, not a minor discomfort.
- namdnay 3y ago[flagged]
- toothrot 3y agoIt can be procedurally very long and drawn out, especially in less welcoming states. To your point, transitioning is a massive process. Making something bureaucratically painful significantly easier is very welcome to an overwhelming process.
- namdnay 3y agoFair enough
- snotrockets 3y agoThis isn't just useful for transitioning of course. I'm cis, but the way my name is spelled in official documents makes Americans pronounce it wrong (not their fault: it's just bad transliteration). Going and changing it is a pain, and would make many simple beurocractic tasks more complicated, having to explain that every document printed before the change does indeed belong to me, and here are the name change documents, and yes, I know this makes your computer system barf, etc etc. Systems that have a separate field for a government name are great: I can have the Americanized spelling for the display name, without the hassle.
- ttymck 3y ago[flagged]
- cyanydeez 3y ago[flagged]
- cyanydeez 3y ago[flagged]
- threeseed 3y ago> It harms everyone How is allowing someone to use a different name harmful to everyone ?
- xdennis 3y agoYou're being disingenuous. This is the quote: > It harms everyone when we redefine safety He is saying it harms everyone when being called by the name you don't want is redefined as unsafe because it makes it difficult to differentiate between significant issues.
- threeseed 3y ago> It harms everyone when we redefine safety How is allowing someone to use a different name harmful to everyone ?
- xdennis 3y agoSo childish.
- pizzafeelsright 3y agoI go by two names. A legal name and one my friends call me. Legally I'm Pizza. My buddies call me Za. I don't care for my legal name and don't identify by it. I haven't legally changed it for many reasons. I am not harmed by someone using my legal name. Verifying someone's identity should be against a legal identity as contracts are bound to legal entity.
- duxup 3y agoThe language surrounding these topics is so nebulous that I often have no clue what they mean. ----------------- And beyond the general topic discussing these things generally I've had one anecdotal incident involving such nebulous concepts of "safe". I worked at a place where HR notified us that a member of our team "did not feel safe or welcome". I had no idea what to do with this information. They obviously didn't want to identify the person, or what happened (i can understand the desire to do so) ... but then what does that mean, what of any helpful things could we even do if we don't know what is going on? Then we got a second notice just as vague as the first about someone (it seemed to be implied it was the same person) still felt that way. This notice (sent to a few hundred people) had a more finger wagging tone to it. At that point I was actually angry. I responded that I did not feel safe working in an environment with vague notices that someone(s), maybe, did something to make someone(s) else uncomfortable or feel something ... and that to some unknown extent I and others were now on notice in some vague way about it. Maybe I did it, heck if I know, if so what could I do!??! Shortly after a clarification email went out that nobody was in trouble and any specific incidents would be handled with those involved only and no further group emails would go out. Someone did leave the company not long after. I was told (not sure if it was true) they were the source of the complaints. That person was "sensitive" to the extent that they seemed upset by every little thing. They were pretty hard to be around, every day events upset them, and frankly they were an asshole too. It struck me how such nebulous language in that case allows someone to impose on others. I suspect that someone expressing that they did not feel "safe or welcome" in such a vague way contributed to the equally vague and weird "solution" to just spam out a warning(s) to everyone. The result was absurd. It really illustrates how this kind of language can be very confusing. -------- Now the Mastercard thing isn't that exactly, and I hope it helps someone. But the vague language always throws me off a bit.
- hellcow 3y agoTrans people are victims of hate crimes. It’s not “minor psychological discomfort.” For many people, it’s life-and-death. Giving people control to share this very sensitive information when and how they see fit makes trans people safer. It’s not for you to decide.
- uxp8u61q 3y agoStep 1. Go to google news or whatever news aggregation website you want. Step 2. Search for "transgender attack". Step 3. Take some time to digest the horrible news you're reading. Step 4. Try to figure out the common thread between these stories. The people in question usually get outed in public during some kind of ID check, and got jumped by some intolerant moron who witnessed it. This is happening. Today. Including in "North America and Europe". The people who say they feel unsafe because they feel unsafe for their physical integrity and safety. Not because of "awkwardness or very minor psychological discomfort".
- namdnay 3y agoin that case it's an argument for getting the name change done properly right from the start, right? i don't think having a different name on your mastercard is a solution here (especially since choosing "mx" as a prefix is hardly keeping things secret..)
- criddell 3y agoThere’s nothing MasterCard can do to help you change your name. This is something they can do. Plus, it makes MasterCard more appealing to this market. I think it was a great move.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago[flagged]
- jmbwell 3y agoI fully agree. We do too much to keep people who are already safe from feeling slightly awkward or experiencing minor psychological discomfort. We should do what we can to make life easier for everyone. If that makes a majority of people aware of the suffering of a particular group, ultimately I think it helps cultivate compassion, and compassion benefits us all. I applaud your progressive, optimistic, and compassionate position, author Edit: I’m being told I’m misconstruing your comments and not at all what you meant
- dtjb 3y agoWhy do you assume their use of the word "unsafe" was limited to awkwardness? There is a growing group of people willing to confront anyone in public that is transgender, with a smaller (yet still growing) group who are emboldened enough to inflict physical harm.
- dwb 3y agoLet me guess: you or a loved one has never been in the same position as the trans people this press release is talking about.
- gruez 3y ago>When Asher DiGiuseppe tried to make a purchase at his local Toronto liquor store, the clerk looked at him with suspicion and questioned his card, which was still printed with the name he had used before transitioning. >[...] New research by Mastercard across 16 countries in North America and Europe revealed that 59% of people who identity as nonbinary say they feel unsafe while shopping, and 57% say they think it’s important that companies and organizations address them in a way that respects their identity. Is this a serious issue? I don't think anyone ever checked the name on my credit card. Even when I was carded at a liquor store, they'd only check my government id, not the credit card itself. Also for online payments I don't think the "cardholder name" field is even checked, so you can put whatever you want. Therefore I'm not sure what the point of this is, other than trying to score some PR points.
- jjallen 3y agoI’ve been checked many many times. If not it would be very easy to commit fraud
- namdnay 3y agohow do they do it for contactless?
- maxk42 3y agoBut this would just mean the name on the card does NOT match the name on the ID. How does this help with the issue of fraud at all?
- chalst 3y agoThat’s an issue that can be dealt with by calling the card issuer.
- gruez 3y agoHow is that supposed to work? The toll free number on the back of my card just goes to some customer support line with 30+ minute wait times. There's absolutely no chance that a cashier is going through that for a typical transaction. Also, the whole point of this program is to make this less awkward for transgender people. Being deadnamed might be bad, but at least it's straightforward. The cardholder name matches the one on your government id, and the picture in the government id matches your face, done. I'm not sure how having mismatched names and having to call the bank is more pleasant.
- ngetchell 3y agoSeems reasonable.
- globile 3y agoFrom a fraud prevention mechanism, credit card name has also been a minor signal when composing any fingerprinting patterns. Might as well ignore the whole signal, and more now that anonymous and prepaid are gaining share.
- decremental 3y ago[dead]
- koreanguy 3y ago[dead]
- namdnay 3y agoNot living in north america, there's something i must be missing - who looks at the name on a credit card? who even touches your credit card anymore? in europe and uk you're either contactless or you're given the terminal to enter your card yourself, and I'm 99% certain the "name" that is written on the card never comes up on screen
- mintplant 3y agoI've been called by my name many times by store clerks after paying contactless, without having given my name, so I assume it does get surfaced to them on the billing UI. It's also fairly common (in my experience, here in southern California) for the name on the card to be automatically used as the name on your order for, e.g., calling out when it's ready to be picked up at the counter.
- andix 3y agoInteresting, is this some US thing? Because in Europe for VISA/Mastercard payments I'm quite sure the name of the card owner is never transmitted to the vendor. Not in the past, and not now. It would also be quite in conflict with data protection laws. Also it's a risk for stolen credit card information. I think the vendor doesn't even get the credit card number when processing a payment, otherwise shop clerks could just take screenshots and abuse a credit card for online shopping.
- gruez 3y ago>Interesting, is this some US thing? Because in Europe for VISA/Mastercard payments I'm quite sure the name of the card owner is never transmitted to the vendor I was surprised too but apparently it's a field that exists on the magstripe itself. Presumably something similar exists on EMV (for chip/contactless) as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_card#Track_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_card#Track_1
- andix 3y agoPayments with the magnetic stripe is something that’s long gone in Europe. More than 20 years. Some devices may still support it (for US tourists), but I haven’t seen anyone using it for over a decade. I doubt that the number and the name can be read via EMC. Otherwise you could easily read strangers name in the subway by just holding your NFC Android phone close to their wallet. And HN would be full with such stories :)
- BSDobelix 3y agoTrue Name TM.....
- tiffanyh 3y ago(2022)
- alt_retaliation 3y agoAbout a service they've had since 2019.
- snotrockets 3y agoAnd yet not enough people are aware of. For readers of this site, I think it should serve as a reminder, that when designing systems, that people's name as it appears on official government documents may not be their name, and we should take care to have the systems we build recognize that.
- paulpauper 3y agoNew research by Mastercard across 16 countries in North America and Europe revealed that 59% of people who identity as nonbinary say they feel unsafe while shopping what about the control group For Emme Reynolds of Ottawa, credit and debit cards also carry with them a certain amount of stress because they’re just another opportunity in one’s day to be “deadnamed” or misgendered. “It’s wild to see how many times in a day your old name can pop up,” they say. “It’s exhausting to see the name and to be misgendered.” really? and not hidden fees or card being lost? debit cards should be avoided if possible. no buyer protection
- TheRealPomax 3y agoI don't think you're familiar with how debit cards work across the planet if you think that "just losing it" is somehow a problem, or that debit cards don't come with buyer protection? If you lose your card, you report it lost with a quick phonecall to your bank's dedicated security number, and that card is now dead. If someone tries to use it before you report your card, you get to dispute those charges, and if they try to use it after the card got blocked, nothing happens. Which is why you always report lost cards immediately, because you'll have a new one in at most a few days, and until then you can use online banking just fine, let that be a lesson to you to not lose your cards again. It's an important lesson. Telling people that debit cards should be avoided is a bit like telling people that "busses should be avoided" just because where you live, bus service is terrible.
- paulpauper 3y agocredit card has much longer dispute window and higher odds of refund. merchant can delay shipment knowing that if you use debit that you cannot dispute. it happens a lot.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoAgain: strongly depends on where you live, and what businesses are legally required to do? If you live in a world where people pay for everything by credit card and banks are hyper-for-profit institutions, like the US, then it might blow your mind to learn that that large parts of the world never allowed credit card companies to replace banks, with banks actually offering services that people want need banks to offer, rather than having to rely on visa or mastercard.
- contravariant 3y agoSounds like a good thing, though I can't help but feel that this is a workaround for the real issue. Because frankly it shouldn't have to be that hard to get the official documentation correct.
- madeofpalk 3y agoIncredibly minor, but I dislike that my Amex card has “Mr Initial LastName” on it, or worse, my full government name rather than the shortened name that I consistently go by everywhere else. Thankfully my bank card from a UK bank just allows you to print your preferred name on your card.
- petesergeant 3y agoRing them? My Amex has just my surname on it after I asked for that, ‘cuz I thought it looked cool. They’re pretty accommodating
- milkshakes 3y agoamex allowed me to issue additional cards in whatever name i want. so did bofa actually.
- ksjskskskkk 3y agolaudable, but meaningless since they are also moving to biometrics such as fingerprints and palm scanners (against every single security advisory). and stores are moving to cashier-less automation.
- toothrot 3y agoIt seems like people in this thread are unaware of the very real threats, harassment, and assaults that happen as a trans person in public. Using a name that matches your gender identity is important for both psychological safety, as well as avoiding being outed and threatened by others in public. Laws in different states can make changing your legal name incredibly complicated and time consuming. Having an easy process to avoid some daily danger is wonderful for trans people, regardless of the motivation from MasterCard.
- kefka_p 3y agoSeems like many are just feigning lack of awareness, imo. Casual observation shows a pattern of looking the other way when bad things are happening to people they don’t like.
- TheNewsIsHere 3y agoI also think there’s some amount of intellectualization about these issues, for varying reasons. In my own social group the most common one I observe is that it’s an academic exercise to those who aren’t part of an affected group. I don’t say that from a place of judgement, it makes perfect sense that in those cases a lack of lived experience would make it academic. For others it’s reality, and that’s why it’s important to address these kinds of issues.
- snotrockets 3y agotl;dr: Mastercard: "We've found that some people's name could different from what their government ID says their name is, and offer a solution for that problem" Many HN commenters: "I don't have this problem, therefore it isn't a real problem"
- xdennis 3y agoBecause it's a bad hack. If you want to change your name you should change it with the government, not each individual company.
- toothrot 3y agoThat's unfortunately not possible everywhere, but purchasing things daily is necessary.
- snotrockets 3y agoPerfect is the enemy of good. Mastercard implement a local fix for the government-docs-has-wrong-name problem, that is available today. That's great! Now you can go and advocate to solve the government problem. And tbh, calling elected representatives is a much better use of our time than posting on this website.
- MissTake 3y agoAnd for many people that’s becoming increasingly harder to do.
- xdennis 3y ago[flagged]
- camdenlock 3y agoI’m trans and I don’t. Only weirdo leftists love that stuff. We’re not all like that, but… an uncomfortable percentage do seem to be pretty out there with their belief systems.
- andix 3y agoNowadays nobody ever looks at my cards. I just put them into a machine, and enter the PIN. Or just tap them for a contactless payment. When using Apple Pay or Google Pay there is no name shown on the screen of the phone. Neither is the name shown on the screen of the cash register nor printed on the receipt. So someone seeing the name on your card is not really a thing any more, or am I missing something?
- jmbwell 3y agoSeems like a good way to help make credit products more attractive to an under-served market segment at near-zero cost in terms of established legacy markets
- SushiHippie 3y ago(June 2022)
- superkuh 3y agoMastercard's US card activation service (both phone and computer) were down from Jan 2nd to Jan 4th. As someone with a Mastercard that expired on Jan/2024 this was quite a hassle for me. In the end in order to pay my due bills I had to use bitcoin.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- NoZebra120vClip 3y agoThe terminology makes me laugh and I think of schismatic churches. If you investigate the seedy underbelly of Eastern Orthodoxy, you will find many splinter groups which claim that the main bodies have committed apostasy and lost the faith. Therefore these small, schismatic groups, sometimes with limited clergy resources, will name themselves "True Orthodox" or "Really Truly Orthodox and We Mean It This Time". Generally these groups will themselves experience schism as they quibble about trivial things, and so devolve into "Truer than True Orthodoxy" and "Old True Believers of the Truth About Cats, Dogs, and Orthodoxy". It's a bizarre concept that someone should have a "True Name" that's truer than their legally recorded name(s) and truer still than the names which they were given by their legal parents and names which were used for them throughout their lives. A new name that someone takes for himself is commonly known as an "assumed name" or "alias". As Pontius Pilate was heard to remark, "What is Truth?"
- foogazi 3y ago> It's a bizarre concept that someone should have a "True Name" that's truer than their legally recorded name(s) and truer still than the names which they were given by their legal parents Why use a name someone else gave you if you don’t like it anymore ? What prevents us from changing it ?
- SheinhardtWigCo 3y agoBizarre means "very strange or unusual", but the scenario you described happens often. An assumed name or alias is a part-time name used for a specific purpose; the definition does not extend to a new name used as an individual's full-time name. > As Pontius Pilate was heard to remark, "What is Truth?" And as we know, Jesus replied: "Check the dictionary."
- sk5t 3y agoHmm. The only occasion in the past few years I can recall handing a card to any clerk for inspection or payment processing is host-stand restaurant pickup, and never gotten a second glance when presenting my partner's card.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- AgentOrange1234 3y agoWhy is this submission flagged?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwawa14223 3y agoMarketing spam for Mastercard.
- xdennis 3y agoPosts about controversial subjects often get flagged because they rarely lead to productive conversations.
- tiffanyh 3y agoAgreed. A healthy dialogue can take place because this is: a. a first of it's kind of service b. introduces interesting regulatory KYC challenges (I imagine) c. is being done, by a company at scale
- 93po 3y agomassive transphobia in comments
- sundaeofshock 3y agoBecause there is a depressing large number of transphobes who frequent HN.
- Frivolous9421 3y ago[flagged]
- emptybits 3y ago> “Reynolds hasn’t changed their own name legally because they say it’s a cumbersome process that they’re not ready to tackle.” “Cumbersome” seems like a low bar, considering how beneficial it would be for one’s desired name to match their legal name. That’s gotta be more useful than a credit card name, no? Just do the work?
- locopati 3y ago[flagged]
- klabb3 3y ago> the clerk looked at him with suspicion and questioned his card, which was still printed with the name he had used before transitioning > A quarter of those surveyed say they have not changed their gender marker on their formal ID, discouraged by the expensive and time-consuming process So you change your name on your card, while having a government ID with a different name. And that’s supposed to make things less suspicious? I mean, and this is comical, but trans people change their identity, and credit cards from last century partly outsources their fraud prevention by having merchants verify said identity. Wouldn’t it be better to, you know, remove the part where merchants have to do that? How about I authenticate with the payment provider instead of some random store clerk? I don’t want the merchant to even see my name at all. Principle of least privilege.
- ninthcat 3y ago> How about I authenticate with the payment provider instead of some random store clerk? I don’t want the merchant to even see my name at all. Apple Pay and Google Pay don't show the merchant the cardholder name IIRC, and they authenticate you with biometrics, although the merchant may still use AVS and therefore ask you for your zip code.
- foogazi 3y agoSome accounts in the comments really care about what name is on my credit cards Weird when compared with the tech ethos of anonymous internet transactions ( crypto for example)
- gruez 3y ago> Some accounts in the comments really care about what name is on my credit cards Which comments are those? From my skim most people objecting to this are skeptical it works, rather than insisting that the name on the card matches your legal name.
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago(2022)