5 ms·

My kids are approaching school age and I worry about them for this reason. Our state is getting school districts to remove all advanced classes and gifted prog

My kids are approaching school age and I worry about them for this reason. Our state is getting school districts to remove all advanced classes and gifted programs. All in the name of equity. Last year they got rid of all of the advanced math classes in our district because the number of minority students was too low. Thankfully when I grew up we had enough money for me to go to a private school where they had all of these advanced programs. I would have gone crazy without them. I'm a hardcore liberal. But... It feels like there's a brand of liberal out there now that has a totally different idea of what equity is and how we should get there to the point where I find I need to sometimes fight on the side of the more conservative parents in our school district. I don't understand how educating smart people became something that my own side hates and fights against.

nradov 3y ago
You will understand it once you realize that the modern progressive movement has abandoned the liberal principles that we grew up with. They have now adopted a Maoist political philosophy.
wait_a_minute 3y ago
> Our state is getting school districts to remove all advanced classes and gifted programs. All in the name of equity. Last year they got rid of all of the advanced math classes in our district because the number of minority students was too low. wtf
- csa 3y ago
  California things.
  - mrexroad 3y ago
    Where in California, specifically?
    - csa 3y ago
      It’s a statewide effort, but I think SF (or some place in the Bay Area) has already done away with middle school algebra, which is a common first step in the path to high school calculus. Plenty of articles on this on the interwebs. For example: https://reason.com/2023/10/04/california-state-guidelines-discourage-schools-from-offering-advanced-middle-school-math/ https://reason.com/2023/10/04/california-state-guidelines-di... Note that I am not the OP, so I don’t know where they are specifically, or even if they are in CA. That said, K-12 is moving this direction in CA, and I think the administrators will end up getting their way one way or another.
      - mrexroad 3y ago
        The article only mentioned SF schools having done so a decade ago. FWIW, I have several kids in K-12 in the Bay Area schools and can say there’s zero talk of this within our school system or from the administrators I’ve interacted with. One of my kids took algebra in middle school last year and that was after we didn’t push them into a more advanced class. My kids are wonderfully different academically: one has special education needs, another literally maxed the scale in the mathematics portion of the state standardized tests, and another is beautifully well rounded. All have been supported, encouraged, and even pushed in mathematics by our public schools.
        csa 3y ago
        Do you think that your situation is representative of the direction the state will go in over the next decade or so? I’m not so sure. Policies that focus on equality of outcomes rather than equality of opportunities are very popular in education circles these days. Certain communities (esp. relatively wealthy ones with relatively high-achieving and/or ambitious parents) may be able to avoid these policies for longer than others, but I’m not sure they will be able to be avoided entirely except by students in private schools. The math curriculum issue that CA currently has will continue and expand, imho. The DoE did not expect to get as much pushback as they got. Now it’s just a matter (from their perspective) of how they can force the outcome they want (e.g., no middle school algebra and/or high school calculus) with terms that will be or must be accepted by the population (e.g., budget cuts, manpower issues, accreditation issues, etc.). Note that I’m not trying to be overly alarmist, and I know that this reply may seem overly negative, but I’ve heard this song played before in a different key.
hipadev23 3y ago
> I'm a hardcore liberal. But... It feels like there's a brand of liberal It's definitely not a simple dichotomy. But yes, liberals who want everyone and everything to be mediocre have the loudest voices right now.
fallingknife 3y ago
This is why I vote Republican now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
orochimaaru 3y ago
We had a school district near me cancel these for a different reason. All the asian parents were pushing kids hard to get into the gifted program and with preparation the test differences between the students was not significant, i.e. they found many more "gifted" than they had space for. It was also proving stressful for the kids.
- em-bee 3y ago
  in china they pretty much banned private after school tutoring for the same reason. tutoring is now only to be provided by the schools for students that actually need it.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    And many Chinese are engaging online tutors on their own to tutor their children. A friend's wife did it for extra income for several years.
6gvONxR4sf7o 3y ago
What state?
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  MA
_kobayashiMaru 3y ago
The public schools I attended while growing up did not have funding for advanced classes. Students who were far ahead in classes with the “gen pop” were pushed into the role of unofficial teacher aides, charged with helping our struggling peers through the class content. It was hugely demoralizing as a student and discouraged doing well.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  I hear this all the time now that I'm an educator (albeit at the university level). Kids report that they hated school, wasted their time, and were horribly demoralized. Only when they got something more serious to challenge them later in life did they flourish. Those that made it at least. Sorry it happened to you! I really don't want that for my kids. I'm amused that my comment was highly upvoted and now it sits at a zero. I guess it's a reflection of the crowd here too.
at_a_remove 3y ago
I have been told that Vonnegut wrote "Harrison Bergeron" as a kind of parody of right-wing thought about left-winger ideas of equality, but it's definitely entered into the realm of "1984 was a warning, not a manual, people."
- deanCommie 3y ago
  I am also concerned by what light_hue_1 wrote, but describing what is happening today as Harrison Bergeron is A very reductive and shallow summary of what is going on. Assuming schools have fixed budgets (that they're inconsistent, and based on property taxes is a separate discussion we should have), there's going to be a finite amount of resources to invest in every student. How do you allocate it? A) Completely evenly regardless of merit B) Optimizing for the best student and giving them the best chance to exceed and achieve their maximum potential C) Optimizing for the median student D) Optimizing for the worst student E) Other? A is obviously ridiculous. B is how many societies have flourished and how humanity moves forward, but is also inherently unequal. D) ensures mediocrity. I think the most progressive minds changing schools today are trying to achieve C. Are they misguided? It's quite hard to tell. I honestly don't know. Because the problem is answering this question requires answering a different one: * What are the qualities of a society that is not only the "best" for the most people, but is also able to move humanity forward in a way as to resolve our existential threats (climate change, random asteroids wiping away Earth, GAI, etc.* Those that believe the answer to THAT is B would say that any other choice is short-sighted and stupid. But I do believe that those that believe C believe in a different way. That C still allows the truly exceptional to make a mark on the world. When the median becomes great, there is no worry about the exceptional being dominated by the mediocre. Of course the problem is there are idiots there - in every philosophical field. And are some going to cargo cult their way into Harrison Bergeron? Probably. But that's not the overall intent.
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    "When the median becomes great" is doing a lot of work there. If it isn't true, and I've never seen evidence to that effect, as it has gone on and on that way for ...decades, then we're really just doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
gnicholas 3y ago
Similar things are happening in the Bay Area. One thing you can do is get involved with the school board, who oversee the administrators. Another thing you can do is be persistent with the current administrators. It took years of seemingly-useless conversations, but eventually they let my kid do math independently. I assume that I won’t have to push as hard the second time around (I have 2 kids), since I’ve already proven that (1) yes, my child actually is that far ahead, and (2) I am not going to give up. I’m happy to chat further with parents that are dealing with this. Contact in profile.

nradov 3y ago

You will understand it once you realize that the modern progressive movement has abandoned the liberal principles that we grew up with. They have now adopted a Maoist political philosophy.

wait_a_minute 3y ago

> Our state is getting school districts to remove all advanced classes and gifted programs. All in the name of equity. Last year they got rid of all of the advanced math classes in our district because the number of minority students was too low. wtf

csa 3y ago
California things.
- mrexroad 3y ago
  Where in California, specifically?
  - csa 3y ago
    It’s a statewide effort, but I think SF (or some place in the Bay Area) has already done away with middle school algebra, which is a common first step in the path to high school calculus. Plenty of articles on this on the interwebs. For example: https://reason.com/2023/10/04/california-state-guidelines-discourage-schools-from-offering-advanced-middle-school-math/ https://reason.com/2023/10/04/california-state-guidelines-di... Note that I am not the OP, so I don’t know where they are specifically, or even if they are in CA. That said, K-12 is moving this direction in CA, and I think the administrators will end up getting their way one way or another.
    - mrexroad 3y ago
      The article only mentioned SF schools having done so a decade ago. FWIW, I have several kids in K-12 in the Bay Area schools and can say there’s zero talk of this within our school system or from the administrators I’ve interacted with. One of my kids took algebra in middle school last year and that was after we didn’t push them into a more advanced class. My kids are wonderfully different academically: one has special education needs, another literally maxed the scale in the mathematics portion of the state standardized tests, and another is beautifully well rounded. All have been supported, encouraged, and even pushed in mathematics by our public schools.
      - csa 3y ago
        Do you think that your situation is representative of the direction the state will go in over the next decade or so? I’m not so sure. Policies that focus on equality of outcomes rather than equality of opportunities are very popular in education circles these days. Certain communities (esp. relatively wealthy ones with relatively high-achieving and/or ambitious parents) may be able to avoid these policies for longer than others, but I’m not sure they will be able to be avoided entirely except by students in private schools. The math curriculum issue that CA currently has will continue and expand, imho. The DoE did not expect to get as much pushback as they got. Now it’s just a matter (from their perspective) of how they can force the outcome they want (e.g., no middle school algebra and/or high school calculus) with terms that will be or must be accepted by the population (e.g., budget cuts, manpower issues, accreditation issues, etc.). Note that I’m not trying to be overly alarmist, and I know that this reply may seem overly negative, but I’ve heard this song played before in a different key.

hipadev23 3y ago

> I'm a hardcore liberal. But... It feels like there's a brand of liberal It's definitely not a simple dichotomy. But yes, liberals who want everyone and everything to be mediocre have the loudest voices right now.

fallingknife 3y ago

This is why I vote Republican now.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

orochimaaru 3y ago

We had a school district near me cancel these for a different reason. All the asian parents were pushing kids hard to get into the gifted program and with preparation the test differences between the students was not significant, i.e. they found many more "gifted" than they had space for. It was also proving stressful for the kids.

em-bee 3y ago
in china they pretty much banned private after school tutoring for the same reason. tutoring is now only to be provided by the schools for students that actually need it.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  And many Chinese are engaging online tutors on their own to tutor their children. A friend's wife did it for extra income for several years.

6gvONxR4sf7o 3y ago

What state?

light_hue_1 3y ago
MA

_kobayashiMaru 3y ago

The public schools I attended while growing up did not have funding for advanced classes. Students who were far ahead in classes with the “gen pop” were pushed into the role of unofficial teacher aides, charged with helping our struggling peers through the class content. It was hugely demoralizing as a student and discouraged doing well.

light_hue_1 3y ago
I hear this all the time now that I'm an educator (albeit at the university level). Kids report that they hated school, wasted their time, and were horribly demoralized. Only when they got something more serious to challenge them later in life did they flourish. Those that made it at least. Sorry it happened to you! I really don't want that for my kids. I'm amused that my comment was highly upvoted and now it sits at a zero. I guess it's a reflection of the crowd here too.

at_a_remove 3y ago

I have been told that Vonnegut wrote "Harrison Bergeron" as a kind of parody of right-wing thought about left-winger ideas of equality, but it's definitely entered into the realm of "1984 was a warning, not a manual, people."

deanCommie 3y ago
I am also concerned by what light_hue_1 wrote, but describing what is happening today as Harrison Bergeron is A very reductive and shallow summary of what is going on. Assuming schools have fixed budgets (that they're inconsistent, and based on property taxes is a separate discussion we should have), there's going to be a finite amount of resources to invest in every student. How do you allocate it? A) Completely evenly regardless of merit B) Optimizing for the best student and giving them the best chance to exceed and achieve their maximum potential C) Optimizing for the median student D) Optimizing for the worst student E) Other? A is obviously ridiculous. B is how many societies have flourished and how humanity moves forward, but is also inherently unequal. D) ensures mediocrity. I think the most progressive minds changing schools today are trying to achieve C. Are they misguided? It's quite hard to tell. I honestly don't know. Because the problem is answering this question requires answering a different one: * What are the qualities of a society that is not only the "best" for the most people, but is also able to move humanity forward in a way as to resolve our existential threats (climate change, random asteroids wiping away Earth, GAI, etc.* Those that believe the answer to THAT is B would say that any other choice is short-sighted and stupid. But I do believe that those that believe C believe in a different way. That C still allows the truly exceptional to make a mark on the world. When the median becomes great, there is no worry about the exceptional being dominated by the mediocre. Of course the problem is there are idiots there - in every philosophical field. And are some going to cargo cult their way into Harrison Bergeron? Probably. But that's not the overall intent.
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  "When the median becomes great" is doing a lot of work there. If it isn't true, and I've never seen evidence to that effect, as it has gone on and on that way for ...decades, then we're really just doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

gnicholas 3y ago

Similar things are happening in the Bay Area. One thing you can do is get involved with the school board, who oversee the administrators. Another thing you can do is be persistent with the current administrators. It took years of seemingly-useless conversations, but eventually they let my kid do math independently. I assume that I won’t have to push as hard the second time around (I have 2 kids), since I’ve already proven that (1) yes, my child actually is that far ahead, and (2) I am not going to give up. I’m happy to chat further with parents that are dealing with this. Contact in profile.