14 ms·

patio11 has a huge and well known bias here, which is that he wants to claim, not necessarily with evidence, that all inefficiency is caused by governments and

by neilkk 3y ago

patio11 has a huge and well known bias here, which is that he wants to claim, not necessarily with evidence, that all inefficiency is caused by governments and not by the private sector. A comparison of tax filing in the United States with other countries, including those where governments are much bigger and more interventionist, leads to a different conclusion.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Indeed! Japan’s system is very efficient, and he has lived there for some time, so he should be familiar. Similarly, it took the US forever to implement an instant payment system (commercial banks built Zelle via Early Warning Systems and RTP via The Clearinghouse, and the Fed finally built FedNow after Congress directed them to in order to ensure universal access) while India and Brazil rapidly rolled out their implementations (UPI and Pix, respectively). These are intentional choices. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-japan-is-a-breeze-why-not-here.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-j...
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >Japan’s system is very efficient, Yes, because there is only one tax authority (国税庁, Kokuzeichou, National Tax Agency). Here in the US, we have more than one tax authority: We have the IRS, which is the federal tax authority. Each state then has their own tax authority. Each county then has their own tax authority. Each city then might have their own tax authority. And we must submit filings and returns with and pay taxes to all of them as applicable, and they all operate on their own laws, regulations, and taxes. To reframe this, let's talk about sales tax. In Japan, there is only one nationwide sales tax; because there is only one tax authority. In the US, sales tax might be levied at the state, county, and city levels as applicable (federal doesn't levy sales tax, as far as I'm aware). Some might not have sales tax, others might, and they are all different rates. The sale tax in one city will be different from its neighbouring city. TL;DR: Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes.
  - mrmanner 3y ago
    > Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes Everyone wants their taxes and refuses to cooperate. Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all. I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue). The local tax authorities per county surprised me though - what a mess…
    - mixdup 3y ago
      >Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all. Most states operate this way. Counties will often collect city taxes, and in some states the state will collect the city and county taxes. There are obviously exceptions but within states there's a lot more cooperation than you might think And most individuals are not paying income taxes to cities or counties, they're paying property taxes and that is typically automatically handled via their mortgage company
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      >>I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue). the US Federal government was not suppose to tax citizens directly either, thanks to the 16th Amendment that was passed under the lie that it would only ever be a "Tax on the rich" of 3% and only apply to 1% of the people, now the federal government takes nearly 25% of all citizens incomes,, and uses that money to bribe people for votes and extort states for policies they desire...
      - mdhb 3y ago
        Maybe you should be more pissed about that 1% who are using every trick in the book to avoid paying taxes. Also as a side note why you think economic policy from hundreds of years ago is the pinnacle of excellence is a more than a but confusing.
  - 3y ago
- pezezin 3y ago
  Really? I live in Japan, last month I had to fill my taxes, and I found the process to be really convoluted and annoying compared to my home country (Spain). Likewise, banks feel really obsolete and inefficient here. I shudder to imagine how bad the American system is to make Japan look good :/
  - mcherm 3y ago
    My wife calculates and submits our taxes (here in the US). It typically takes her 40 to 60 hours to complete, and that's after spending around $100 USD on tax preparation software to make it easier. To be fair, our taxes are more complex than many people's (I live in a different state than my employer and we have some stock market investments), but it's still ABSURDLY difficult. And I'm not counting the time needed to respond to Federal or State follow-ups 9 months later where they question the values we provided. That happens to us about every 2-3 years. So far it has only once found a minor error on our part.
    - georgyo 3y ago
      What?! I do my taxes myself for my family. I have W2s, K1s, various 1099s for investments, own a home, and deal with carry overs from the previous years. It takes me about an hour to do it. And then another hour to amend them many months later when I get my actual K1s. How hard is it to answer 100 questions and copy numbers over from one place to another? W2 box 1 goes to W2 box 1. No I don't own a corn farm. I donated this much to these organizations. I would consider 25% of my rent for my home office. Both turbo tax and tax hawk will connect to your investment bank and populate all the obscure 1099 stuff there. Dealing with international investment was definitely confusing the first time around, but definitely not 40 hours worth. 40 hours is 8 hours a day for 5 days straight. I don't know what you value yours wife's time at, but if it really takes that long you might be better off paying a CPA a few hundred dollars.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - mv4 3y ago
mixdup 3y ago
>that all inefficiency is caused by governments Forget about the evidence of other countries (which is completely valid), I just hate the argument that government inherently because it's government is inefficient and will never be effective In the US half the people in charge of the government hate it and want it to fail. Of course it's going to be bloated, inefficient, and costly. It's being sabotaged from the top. If everyone agreed that, once we make a choice on what the government is going to do we should do it well, we could have government services that are just as effective as whatever private enterprise example people always like to cite (being from the South it's usually the Chick Fil A drive-thru)
- moduspol 3y ago
  And that's why our west coast cities, which are not run by the half that hates government, are shining beacons of just how effective and successful governments can be.
  - ksenzee 3y ago
    There's this idea that west coast cities are shitholes, and honestly it's BS. I live in the Seattle suburbs and I'm downtown regularly, and the only obvious problem is the public disorder visited on us all by Martin v. Boise. It's pretty clear from housing prices that wealthy people are still happy living in Seattle: the market is speaking loudly. Don't get me wrong—I live in the suburbs for a reason, you couldn't pay me enough to live in Seattle—but as cities go, it's fine. Republicans who hate big disorderly cities like I do should just enjoy their suburban parking lots and breathing room, and quit pretending city chaos equals Democratic mismanagement.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      I agree that in many cases there isn't any substance behind the talk. Yet the single largest state-to-state flow of people is from California to Texas, not the other way around; surely there's something objective that is driving that. And, given the time and effort required for such a move, it's not something most people would do on a whim without doing at least some research.
PeterStuer 3y ago
Having worked in IT with both the public and the private sector, my opinion is there is no difference in 'efficency' between them at all. Efficiency seems inversely correlated with the size of the organization. Public sector usually has large orgs, but they are not run less efficient than equivalently sized enterprises. You might jump to the conclusion that smaller entities would be the efficency solution, and even observe how this allows sometimes for a smaller entity to outcompete a big enterprise. However, if you approach it from a more systemic analytical point of view you have to take into account that surrounding the 'small' efficient business, there are dozens if not hundreds of unsuccessful competing small entities vying for the same niche. Taken together and purely looking at aggregate efficiency, this collection of competing businesses is even less efficient. The strenght of an openly darwinian struggle lies in innovation and adaptation, not in aggregate resource waste reduction.

by neilkk 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Indeed! Japan’s system is very efficient, and he has lived there for some time, so he should be familiar. Similarly, it took the US forever to implement an instant payment system (commercial banks built Zelle via Early Warning Systems and RTP via The Clearinghouse, and the Fed finally built FedNow after Congress directed them to in order to ensure universal access) while India and Brazil rapidly rolled out their implementations (UPI and Pix, respectively). These are intentional choices. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-japan-is-a-breeze-why-not-here.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-j...

Dalewyn 3y ago
>Japan’s system is very efficient, Yes, because there is only one tax authority (国税庁, Kokuzeichou, National Tax Agency). Here in the US, we have more than one tax authority: We have the IRS, which is the federal tax authority. Each state then has their own tax authority. Each county then has their own tax authority. Each city then might have their own tax authority. And we must submit filings and returns with and pay taxes to all of them as applicable, and they all operate on their own laws, regulations, and taxes. To reframe this, let's talk about sales tax. In Japan, there is only one nationwide sales tax; because there is only one tax authority. In the US, sales tax might be levied at the state, county, and city levels as applicable (federal doesn't levy sales tax, as far as I'm aware). Some might not have sales tax, others might, and they are all different rates. The sale tax in one city will be different from its neighbouring city. TL;DR: Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  > Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes Everyone wants their taxes and refuses to cooperate. Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all. I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue). The local tax authorities per county surprised me though - what a mess…
  - mixdup 3y ago
    >Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all. Most states operate this way. Counties will often collect city taxes, and in some states the state will collect the city and county taxes. There are obviously exceptions but within states there's a lot more cooperation than you might think And most individuals are not paying income taxes to cities or counties, they're paying property taxes and that is typically automatically handled via their mortgage company
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >>I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue). the US Federal government was not suppose to tax citizens directly either, thanks to the 16th Amendment that was passed under the lie that it would only ever be a "Tax on the rich" of 3% and only apply to 1% of the people, now the federal government takes nearly 25% of all citizens incomes,, and uses that money to bribe people for votes and extort states for policies they desire...
    - mdhb 3y ago
      Maybe you should be more pissed about that 1% who are using every trick in the book to avoid paying taxes. Also as a side note why you think economic policy from hundreds of years ago is the pinnacle of excellence is a more than a but confusing.
- 3y ago
pezezin 3y ago
Really? I live in Japan, last month I had to fill my taxes, and I found the process to be really convoluted and annoying compared to my home country (Spain). Likewise, banks feel really obsolete and inefficient here. I shudder to imagine how bad the American system is to make Japan look good :/
- mcherm 3y ago
  My wife calculates and submits our taxes (here in the US). It typically takes her 40 to 60 hours to complete, and that's after spending around $100 USD on tax preparation software to make it easier. To be fair, our taxes are more complex than many people's (I live in a different state than my employer and we have some stock market investments), but it's still ABSURDLY difficult. And I'm not counting the time needed to respond to Federal or State follow-ups 9 months later where they question the values we provided. That happens to us about every 2-3 years. So far it has only once found a minor error on our part.
  - georgyo 3y ago
    What?! I do my taxes myself for my family. I have W2s, K1s, various 1099s for investments, own a home, and deal with carry overs from the previous years. It takes me about an hour to do it. And then another hour to amend them many months later when I get my actual K1s. How hard is it to answer 100 questions and copy numbers over from one place to another? W2 box 1 goes to W2 box 1. No I don't own a corn farm. I donated this much to these organizations. I would consider 25% of my rent for my home office. Both turbo tax and tax hawk will connect to your investment bank and populate all the obscure 1099 stuff there. Dealing with international investment was definitely confusing the first time around, but definitely not 40 hours worth. 40 hours is 8 hours a day for 5 days straight. I don't know what you value yours wife's time at, but if it really takes that long you might be better off paying a CPA a few hundred dollars.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - mv4 3y ago

mixdup 3y ago

>that all inefficiency is caused by governments Forget about the evidence of other countries (which is completely valid), I just hate the argument that government inherently because it's government is inefficient and will never be effective In the US half the people in charge of the government hate it and want it to fail. Of course it's going to be bloated, inefficient, and costly. It's being sabotaged from the top. If everyone agreed that, once we make a choice on what the government is going to do we should do it well, we could have government services that are just as effective as whatever private enterprise example people always like to cite (being from the South it's usually the Chick Fil A drive-thru)

moduspol 3y ago
And that's why our west coast cities, which are not run by the half that hates government, are shining beacons of just how effective and successful governments can be.
- ksenzee 3y ago
  There's this idea that west coast cities are shitholes, and honestly it's BS. I live in the Seattle suburbs and I'm downtown regularly, and the only obvious problem is the public disorder visited on us all by Martin v. Boise. It's pretty clear from housing prices that wealthy people are still happy living in Seattle: the market is speaking loudly. Don't get me wrong—I live in the suburbs for a reason, you couldn't pay me enough to live in Seattle—but as cities go, it's fine. Republicans who hate big disorderly cities like I do should just enjoy their suburban parking lots and breathing room, and quit pretending city chaos equals Democratic mismanagement.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    I agree that in many cases there isn't any substance behind the talk. Yet the single largest state-to-state flow of people is from California to Texas, not the other way around; surely there's something objective that is driving that. And, given the time and effort required for such a move, it's not something most people would do on a whim without doing at least some research.

PeterStuer 3y ago

Having worked in IT with both the public and the private sector, my opinion is there is no difference in 'efficency' between them at all. Efficiency seems inversely correlated with the size of the organization. Public sector usually has large orgs, but they are not run less efficient than equivalently sized enterprises. You might jump to the conclusion that smaller entities would be the efficency solution, and even observe how this allows sometimes for a smaller entity to outcompete a big enterprise. However, if you approach it from a more systemic analytical point of view you have to take into account that surrounding the 'small' efficient business, there are dozens if not hundreds of unsuccessful competing small entities vying for the same niche. Taken together and purely looking at aggregate efficiency, this collection of competing businesses is even less efficient. The strenght of an openly darwinian struggle lies in innovation and adaptation, not in aggregate resource waste reduction.