7 ms·

I have a hard time understanding why the IRS doesn't at least have a basic web portal for individuals and businesses to do simple things like update addresses,

by arbuge 3y ago

I have a hard time understanding why the IRS doesn't at least have a basic web portal for individuals and businesses to do simple things like update addresses, send secure correspondence, check on the status of correspondence, file forms electronically, etc. A lot of paper forms and letters, human resources and time could be saved with such a system, even if it doesn't actually provide for any tax computations itself.

nerdponx 3y ago
The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast, and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted)
- hackernewds 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    The $80B is new, and until recently they were understaffed and underfunded. It's like a poor person finally getting Section 8 housing, and then you turn around and accuse them of being wasteful and inefficient with their spending, because they have a house so they clearly aren't as poor as they say. Also the $80B and 87k agents is slightly overstating what they are actually going to get. See e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insider/2022/10/20/the-reality-of-increased-irs-funding https://www.forbes.com/sites/insider/2022/10/20/the-reality-.... Is it possible that the IRS lacks the engineering management expertise to build an effective in-house software team? Sure. Is it possible that they won't spend their money efficiently as a result? Sure. Is it possible that they'll hire B-grade programmers, because the top people won't want to move to some random suburb in MD to work for $120k/year? Sure. But to somehow accuse the IRS of having "massive" funding and imply that they are in fact well-supported is just disregarding the facts of recent history.
  - neon_electro 3y ago
    Tax law enforcement is not the same as the end user experience of taxpayers.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    Precisely. They'll spend $80b to hire "agents." They won't spend a time to make the system actually easy to use. They're not underfunded, they're just incompetent.
    - actuallyalys 3y ago
      There's certainly room to debate how the IRS is spending its money, but they've spent some of it on responding to taxpayer questions, resulting in a decrease in wait times and other improvements: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1421 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1421. These are their own metrics, so it's possible they're being gamed in some way, but it's not true no money is going toward helping taxpayers.
    - atombender 3y ago
      Not quite. Of the $79B, $46B was earmarked tax law enforcement, while $4.8B is designated tax processing modernization, including a plan to replace the current legacy systems (IMF and others that are written in a combination of COBOL and assembly language and that run on 1960s mainframes against IBM VSAM data files, and which the IRS have been trying to replace since the 1990s) by 2028. That money is supposed to be spent that way, and the IRS have to get approval from Congress' House and Senate Appropriations Committee (and TIGTA, Office of Management and Budget, and GAO must all sign off on each request) for all their expenses. I won't disagree that their IT woes seem to be in large part due to incompetence, however.
  - mjamesaustin 3y ago
    IRS funding is objectively efficient. Every additional $1 spent on IRS budget brings in $5-9 of additional funding through enforcement. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444
    - vkou 3y ago
      It's very inefficient for the people who are currently stealing those $5-9.
    - proc0 3y ago
      The efficiency bar has to be particularly low when you consider that it is enforced by law. What incentives do they have to do anything differently when people HAVE to pay them or face consequences. I'm glad they are at least now trying to have a semblance of customer service awareness.
      - viraptor 3y ago
        It's not that easy. The efficiency is actually a benefit for many private companies and it's lobbied very hard. Just look at a comparison with other countries that are also restricted by law and have much nicer systems.
    - ed_elliott_asc 3y ago
      Why don’t they give the irs 100 trillion? America will be rich I say, rich!
    - victorbjorklund 3y ago
      No, that just means it makes economic sense to spend it. Doesnt mean that IRS is run the most optimal and efficient way. You can have a very inefficient monopoloy that still makes a lot of money because it is a monopoly. One can imagine where IRS is more effcient and 1 dollar spent results in 20 dollars more etc.
      - tomnipotent 3y ago
        > run the most optimal and efficient way Why does that matter? No government agency on the planet is run in the most optimal and efficient way; nor businesses or even households. What actually matters is the trend and how it's current efficacy compares to its past.
  - actuallyalys 3y ago
    They did just get a big boost, but this was after years of stagnant funding, as the link in the comment you replied to shows. Comparing government agencies' efficiency to private entities' is tricky since they tend to have different goals and constraints, but I'm not sure 87,000 agents is that many considering the number of households and business that have to pay taxes, and the number of non-profits that don't pay taxes but still file financial information.
  - yokem55 3y ago
    The agents being hired are mostly just support agents answering the phone. And on net the investment in improving the IRS is a net positive on revenue because they can more effectively go after folk who are cheating. It's amazing how some folks will be ardently opposed to "defunding the police" ... except for the tax police.
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      it's unpopular because IRS only goes after low-level tax cheats, not the already-rich ones who steal far more, and funding them more doesn't change that priority. similar to police.
      - whakim 3y ago
        In this particular case, this funding does change that priority. Janet Yellen has instructed that "any additional resources—including any new personnel or auditors that are hired—shall not be used to increase the share of small business or households below the $400,000 threshold that are audited relative to historical levels" [1]. Unfortunately, auditing extremely wealthy individuals is complicated and expensive because you're pitting underpaid and overworked IRS employees against a wildly complicated tax system that is exploited to the max by the super-rich and their well-remunerated tax lawyers. [1] https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0918 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0918
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/irs-millionaire-tax-collection/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/irs-millionaire-tax-... (“IRS has collected $160 million in back taxes by cracking down on millionaires”) https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-to-restore-fairness-to-tax-system-with-inflation-reduction-act-funding-new-compliance-efforts https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-t... (“IRS announces sweeping effort to restore fairness to tax system with Inflation Reduction Act funding; new compliance efforts focused on increasing scrutiny on high-income, partnerships, corporations and promoters abusing tax rules on the books”)
    - 3y ago
  - whakim 3y ago
    This claim is not correct in several ways. The $80B was not earmarked for hiring agents; that was an additional $80B for the entire agency spread over 10 years. While some of that money might be used to hire additional agents, it will also be used to upgrade old technology (the IRS still uses software from the 1950s), make fixed capital investments that have been long-deferred, regulate third-party tax preparers, provide better customer service, crack down on tax evasion and improve enforcement. Additionally, this funding needs to be set in the context of an agency whose budget has shrank 20% over the last decade and whose staffing is set to further shrink through attrition and retirements. The IRS Commissioner testified that the IRS would have to hire 52,000 employees over the next 10 years just to keep staffing at current levels [1]. Finally, the Treasury has argued that this $80B investment would (conservatively) lead to an additional $700B in tax revenue over the next decade, so this spending ends up being entirely revenue-positive [2]. [1] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/written-testimony-of-charles-p-rettig-commissioner-internal-revenue-service-before-the-senate-finance-committee-on-the-filing-season-and-the-irs-budget https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/written-testimony-of-charles-p-... [2] https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/The-American-Families-Plan-Tax-Compliance-Agenda.pdf https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/The-American-Fami... Edit: since this is Hacker News, I thought it worth pointing out that most of the IRS' software is written in COBOL. I can't think of many things more inefficient and cost-ineffective than continually making bit-part upgrades to 60-year-old software written in a language almost no one knows anymore because of a lack of predictable (human and financial) resources needed to rewrite it.
    - a123b456c 3y ago
      I appreciate your corrections and agree with all of them. Yet they do not imply IRS is operating efficiently, as efficiency is left undefined. If we're talking about social efficiency, the tax code appears massively inefficient to me. I believe the tax code should be redesigned to reduce that inefficiency. That may obviate many IRS needs for resources.
      - tomnipotent 3y ago
        > yet they do not imply IRS is operating efficiently The IRS budget for 2020 was $11.5bln to support $3.42 trillion in tax receipts, so I'm not sure that's inefficient. Could it be more efficient? Sure, but it's not as bad as people like to paint it. For comparison, the Los Angeles Unified School District budget alone for that same year was $15bln.
jethro_tell 3y ago
Because they are constantly under resourced so rich people can use the 'IRS sucks' line to get everyone else on board with their ability to do tax evasion.
eddd-ddde 3y ago
As someone from Mexico, it's honestly insane that our system works as good as it does compared to the US. 1. All my incomes are automatically filed. 2. Each month I say "yes this is correct" on the website, and pay immediately via any bank. 3. At the end of the tax year, the system calculates if they own me money automatically, I give it my bank account and in some days I have my return. It even handles tax deductibles and everything.
- gameshot911 3y ago
  Mexico system is crazy complex and confusing. An archaic, windows-only Java app to generate pairs of password-protected keys, which then have to be fed back into the system to declare your tax status. And they expire every so often, so you have to track down your old keys from years ago and remember the password. Confused? Just set up a SAT appointment, they'll be with you in... weeks. Having to declare your tax categorization multiple times per year. Facturas that companies will only generate for you for a limited amount of time, and complicated questionnaires to fill out if you DO want one so you get the right type. Assuming they'll even give you a factura at all. I fully admit that I have an incomplete understanding of the system, this is just what I've seen my wife try to deal with. And she's the equivalent of a 1099 so her situation may be more complicated.
  - marisnom 3y ago
    From what I understand it's easy if you are under a salary but every other regime is complicated af. They also obligate you to get the electronic signature (FIEL) by going to their office, and like you said it takes weeks to get an appointment
PopAlongKid 3y ago
>I have a hard time understanding why the IRS doesn't at least have a basic web portal for individuals and businesses to do simple things They do have such a portal which does some of the things you list and several other things too. https://www.irs.gov/payments/your-online-account https://www.irs.gov/payments/your-online-account
- arbuge 3y ago
  Yes, I know about that. It has a limited subset of the functionality I mention - for individuals. Does not exist for businesses.
  - PopAlongKid 3y ago
    Yes, there is one for business too. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/business-tax-account https://www.irs.gov/businesses/business-tax-account How do we know that your list better matches the most common desired/needed features than the initial implementation by the IRS? IRS business features: Sole proprietors with EIN A sole proprietor who files with an EIN can: View business balance due View business tax records View select digital notices Request a tax compliance check View business name and address on file Give account access to your employees Register for clean energy credits (if eligible) Partners and shareholders An individual partner or shareholder with access can: View business balance due View business tax transcripts View business name on file Access for more business types and roles coming soon.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  Last time I tried to use it, they wanted me to take a selfie and send it to them in order to be able to pay estimated taxes.
1905 3y ago
[dead]
refurb 3y ago
It does. myIRS. Unfortunately it can't do everything, but you can get your tax notices there, check filing status, refund status, get tax transcripts, etc.

by arbuge 3y ago

nerdponx 3y ago

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast, and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted)

hackernewds 3y ago
[flagged]
- nerdponx 3y ago
  The $80B is new, and until recently they were understaffed and underfunded. It's like a poor person finally getting Section 8 housing, and then you turn around and accuse them of being wasteful and inefficient with their spending, because they have a house so they clearly aren't as poor as they say. Also the $80B and 87k agents is slightly overstating what they are actually going to get. See e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insider/2022/10/20/the-reality-of-increased-irs-funding https://www.forbes.com/sites/insider/2022/10/20/the-reality-.... Is it possible that the IRS lacks the engineering management expertise to build an effective in-house software team? Sure. Is it possible that they won't spend their money efficiently as a result? Sure. Is it possible that they'll hire B-grade programmers, because the top people won't want to move to some random suburb in MD to work for $120k/year? Sure. But to somehow accuse the IRS of having "massive" funding and imply that they are in fact well-supported is just disregarding the facts of recent history.
- neon_electro 3y ago
  Tax law enforcement is not the same as the end user experience of taxpayers.
- akira2501 3y ago
  Precisely. They'll spend $80b to hire "agents." They won't spend a time to make the system actually easy to use. They're not underfunded, they're just incompetent.
  - actuallyalys 3y ago
    There's certainly room to debate how the IRS is spending its money, but they've spent some of it on responding to taxpayer questions, resulting in a decrease in wait times and other improvements: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1421 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1421. These are their own metrics, so it's possible they're being gamed in some way, but it's not true no money is going toward helping taxpayers.
  - atombender 3y ago
    Not quite. Of the $79B, $46B was earmarked tax law enforcement, while $4.8B is designated tax processing modernization, including a plan to replace the current legacy systems (IMF and others that are written in a combination of COBOL and assembly language and that run on 1960s mainframes against IBM VSAM data files, and which the IRS have been trying to replace since the 1990s) by 2028. That money is supposed to be spent that way, and the IRS have to get approval from Congress' House and Senate Appropriations Committee (and TIGTA, Office of Management and Budget, and GAO must all sign off on each request) for all their expenses. I won't disagree that their IT woes seem to be in large part due to incompetence, however.
- mjamesaustin 3y ago
  IRS funding is objectively efficient. Every additional $1 spent on IRS budget brings in $5-9 of additional funding through enforcement. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444
  - vkou 3y ago
    It's very inefficient for the people who are currently stealing those $5-9.
  - proc0 3y ago
    The efficiency bar has to be particularly low when you consider that it is enforced by law. What incentives do they have to do anything differently when people HAVE to pay them or face consequences. I'm glad they are at least now trying to have a semblance of customer service awareness.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      It's not that easy. The efficiency is actually a benefit for many private companies and it's lobbied very hard. Just look at a comparison with other countries that are also restricted by law and have much nicer systems.
  - ed_elliott_asc 3y ago
    Why don’t they give the irs 100 trillion? America will be rich I say, rich!
  - victorbjorklund 3y ago
    No, that just means it makes economic sense to spend it. Doesnt mean that IRS is run the most optimal and efficient way. You can have a very inefficient monopoloy that still makes a lot of money because it is a monopoly. One can imagine where IRS is more effcient and 1 dollar spent results in 20 dollars more etc.
    - tomnipotent 3y ago
      > run the most optimal and efficient way Why does that matter? No government agency on the planet is run in the most optimal and efficient way; nor businesses or even households. What actually matters is the trend and how it's current efficacy compares to its past.
- actuallyalys 3y ago
  They did just get a big boost, but this was after years of stagnant funding, as the link in the comment you replied to shows. Comparing government agencies' efficiency to private entities' is tricky since they tend to have different goals and constraints, but I'm not sure 87,000 agents is that many considering the number of households and business that have to pay taxes, and the number of non-profits that don't pay taxes but still file financial information.
- yokem55 3y ago
  The agents being hired are mostly just support agents answering the phone. And on net the investment in improving the IRS is a net positive on revenue because they can more effectively go after folk who are cheating. It's amazing how some folks will be ardently opposed to "defunding the police" ... except for the tax police.
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    it's unpopular because IRS only goes after low-level tax cheats, not the already-rich ones who steal far more, and funding them more doesn't change that priority. similar to police.
    - whakim 3y ago
      In this particular case, this funding does change that priority. Janet Yellen has instructed that "any additional resources—including any new personnel or auditors that are hired—shall not be used to increase the share of small business or households below the $400,000 threshold that are audited relative to historical levels" [1]. Unfortunately, auditing extremely wealthy individuals is complicated and expensive because you're pitting underpaid and overworked IRS employees against a wildly complicated tax system that is exploited to the max by the super-rich and their well-remunerated tax lawyers. [1] https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0918 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0918
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/irs-millionaire-tax-collection/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/irs-millionaire-tax-... (“IRS has collected $160 million in back taxes by cracking down on millionaires”) https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-to-restore-fairness-to-tax-system-with-inflation-reduction-act-funding-new-compliance-efforts https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-sweeping-effort-t... (“IRS announces sweeping effort to restore fairness to tax system with Inflation Reduction Act funding; new compliance efforts focused on increasing scrutiny on high-income, partnerships, corporations and promoters abusing tax rules on the books”)
  - 3y ago
- whakim 3y ago
  This claim is not correct in several ways. The $80B was not earmarked for hiring agents; that was an additional $80B for the entire agency spread over 10 years. While some of that money might be used to hire additional agents, it will also be used to upgrade old technology (the IRS still uses software from the 1950s), make fixed capital investments that have been long-deferred, regulate third-party tax preparers, provide better customer service, crack down on tax evasion and improve enforcement. Additionally, this funding needs to be set in the context of an agency whose budget has shrank 20% over the last decade and whose staffing is set to further shrink through attrition and retirements. The IRS Commissioner testified that the IRS would have to hire 52,000 employees over the next 10 years just to keep staffing at current levels [1]. Finally, the Treasury has argued that this $80B investment would (conservatively) lead to an additional $700B in tax revenue over the next decade, so this spending ends up being entirely revenue-positive [2]. [1] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/written-testimony-of-charles-p-rettig-commissioner-internal-revenue-service-before-the-senate-finance-committee-on-the-filing-season-and-the-irs-budget https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/written-testimony-of-charles-p-... [2] https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/The-American-Families-Plan-Tax-Compliance-Agenda.pdf https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/The-American-Fami... Edit: since this is Hacker News, I thought it worth pointing out that most of the IRS' software is written in COBOL. I can't think of many things more inefficient and cost-ineffective than continually making bit-part upgrades to 60-year-old software written in a language almost no one knows anymore because of a lack of predictable (human and financial) resources needed to rewrite it.
  - a123b456c 3y ago
    I appreciate your corrections and agree with all of them. Yet they do not imply IRS is operating efficiently, as efficiency is left undefined. If we're talking about social efficiency, the tax code appears massively inefficient to me. I believe the tax code should be redesigned to reduce that inefficiency. That may obviate many IRS needs for resources.
    - tomnipotent 3y ago
      > yet they do not imply IRS is operating efficiently The IRS budget for 2020 was $11.5bln to support $3.42 trillion in tax receipts, so I'm not sure that's inefficient. Could it be more efficient? Sure, but it's not as bad as people like to paint it. For comparison, the Los Angeles Unified School District budget alone for that same year was $15bln.

jethro_tell 3y ago

Because they are constantly under resourced so rich people can use the 'IRS sucks' line to get everyone else on board with their ability to do tax evasion.

eddd-ddde 3y ago

As someone from Mexico, it's honestly insane that our system works as good as it does compared to the US. 1. All my incomes are automatically filed. 2. Each month I say "yes this is correct" on the website, and pay immediately via any bank. 3. At the end of the tax year, the system calculates if they own me money automatically, I give it my bank account and in some days I have my return. It even handles tax deductibles and everything.

gameshot911 3y ago
Mexico system is crazy complex and confusing. An archaic, windows-only Java app to generate pairs of password-protected keys, which then have to be fed back into the system to declare your tax status. And they expire every so often, so you have to track down your old keys from years ago and remember the password. Confused? Just set up a SAT appointment, they'll be with you in... weeks. Having to declare your tax categorization multiple times per year. Facturas that companies will only generate for you for a limited amount of time, and complicated questionnaires to fill out if you DO want one so you get the right type. Assuming they'll even give you a factura at all. I fully admit that I have an incomplete understanding of the system, this is just what I've seen my wife try to deal with. And she's the equivalent of a 1099 so her situation may be more complicated.
- marisnom 3y ago
  From what I understand it's easy if you are under a salary but every other regime is complicated af. They also obligate you to get the electronic signature (FIEL) by going to their office, and like you said it takes weeks to get an appointment

PopAlongKid 3y ago

>I have a hard time understanding why the IRS doesn't at least have a basic web portal for individuals and businesses to do simple things They do have such a portal which does some of the things you list and several other things too. https://www.irs.gov/payments/your-online-account https://www.irs.gov/payments/your-online-account

arbuge 3y ago
Yes, I know about that. It has a limited subset of the functionality I mention - for individuals. Does not exist for businesses.
- PopAlongKid 3y ago
  Yes, there is one for business too. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/business-tax-account https://www.irs.gov/businesses/business-tax-account How do we know that your list better matches the most common desired/needed features than the initial implementation by the IRS? IRS business features: Sole proprietors with EIN A sole proprietor who files with an EIN can: View business balance due View business tax records View select digital notices Request a tax compliance check View business name and address on file Give account access to your employees Register for clean energy credits (if eligible) Partners and shareholders An individual partner or shareholder with access can: View business balance due View business tax transcripts View business name on file Access for more business types and roles coming soon.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
Last time I tried to use it, they wanted me to take a selfie and send it to them in order to be able to pay estimated taxes.

1905 3y ago

[dead]

refurb 3y ago

It does. myIRS. Unfortunately it can't do everything, but you can get your tax notices there, check filing status, refund status, get tax transcripts, etc.