2 ms·

> I'm talking core work in core functions on core products. All of them. Yet you can't list even one specific example. If you really are seeing this happen, go

> I'm talking core work in core functions on core products. All of them. Yet you can't list even one specific example. If you really are seeing this happen, go contact the NLRB or the media and get your observations out there and into the public discussion. If all you're willing to say is "trust me, it happens, but I can't even list any one example of this happening" is it really surprising that you're being met with skepticism?

refulgentis 3y ago
I don't have an actionable NLRB complaint, I wasn't a TVC, and the media knows, hence TFA lol. Why am I picking a fight with a trillion dollar company and why are they publishing it? I did name em btw. Count the asterix. Also its literally every single team. Every single team has TVCs. There's a smol iOS app (think Arts and Culture, but not) I almost took the lead role for that would have had all the contributors be TVCs and I did code review.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  > Me and a dozen other people have repeatedly told you it's not just those functions. I'm talking core work in core functions on core products. All of them. There is no limit and they are literally on every team doing what you and I can agree to call "real work" in shorthand. This isn't actually naming anything, you're just insisting it's happening everywhere without actually making a specific allegation. An example of this would be, "full-time employees were being tasked with running performance regression tests for the Google Drive backend, and in 2019 this started to be done by both FTEs and contractors". A pattern that really engenders skepticism is when people insist that something is incredibly pervasive and common, yet fail to list even one example of it happening. If contract workers are being used to do the same work as FTEs on all teams, you should have a wealth of examples of "X team used FTEs to do Y, and starting at such and such a time they started using contractors to do Y as well".
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    Manuel you're extremely oddly passionate about this, you speak extremely aggressively, nothing is ever good enough for you to take a step back and ask something more interesting than "Name names or it's lies!" and you lie about silly things like multiple Google employees telling you it's false and that I'm anonymous. I don't trust you enough to name names just to win a pissing match. Rationally, It's much more likely that you're a Google lawyer or Googler eager to report possible NDA violations than some guy who just needs names to believe. (Which doesn't make any sense anyway)
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Let me get this straight: me asking you to give just one specific example of something you claim is happening on all teams at Google is "extremely aggressive"? Meanwhile you're claiming that I'm a Google lawyer astroturfing HN to hunt down NDA violations. If that were the case, Google should get some better lawyers. The ones they've been hiring have been wasting a lot of billable hours debating the feasibility of electrical grid storage on Hacker News. The recap, NRLB filing linked in this article is not alleging that Cognizant employees are doing the same work as FTEs at google. It's alleging that by having contractors return to the office, and setting other policies like sick leave Google is now a joint employer. The idea that Google is using FTEs and contractors to fulfill the same functions is not supported by the NRLB finding. It's not even a topic that the NRLB is discussing in this document. The NRLB is trying to claim that setting RTO and PTO policies makes Google a joint employer, despite contractors doing separate work from FTEs. If you're only willing to say "it happens but I can't give any further details or examples" then just say so and be willing to accept that this doesn't meet many people's epistemic thresholds.

refulgentis 3y ago

I don't have an actionable NLRB complaint, I wasn't a TVC, and the media knows, hence TFA lol. Why am I picking a fight with a trillion dollar company and why are they publishing it? I did name em btw. Count the asterix. Also its literally every single team. Every single team has TVCs. There's a smol iOS app (think Arts and Culture, but not) I almost took the lead role for that would have had all the contributors be TVCs and I did code review.

Manuel_D 3y ago
> Me and a dozen other people have repeatedly told you it's not just those functions. I'm talking core work in core functions on core products. All of them. There is no limit and they are literally on every team doing what you and I can agree to call "real work" in shorthand. This isn't actually naming anything, you're just insisting it's happening everywhere without actually making a specific allegation. An example of this would be, "full-time employees were being tasked with running performance regression tests for the Google Drive backend, and in 2019 this started to be done by both FTEs and contractors". A pattern that really engenders skepticism is when people insist that something is incredibly pervasive and common, yet fail to list even one example of it happening. If contract workers are being used to do the same work as FTEs on all teams, you should have a wealth of examples of "X team used FTEs to do Y, and starting at such and such a time they started using contractors to do Y as well".
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Manuel you're extremely oddly passionate about this, you speak extremely aggressively, nothing is ever good enough for you to take a step back and ask something more interesting than "Name names or it's lies!" and you lie about silly things like multiple Google employees telling you it's false and that I'm anonymous. I don't trust you enough to name names just to win a pissing match. Rationally, It's much more likely that you're a Google lawyer or Googler eager to report possible NDA violations than some guy who just needs names to believe. (Which doesn't make any sense anyway)
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    Let me get this straight: me asking you to give just one specific example of something you claim is happening on all teams at Google is "extremely aggressive"? Meanwhile you're claiming that I'm a Google lawyer astroturfing HN to hunt down NDA violations. If that were the case, Google should get some better lawyers. The ones they've been hiring have been wasting a lot of billable hours debating the feasibility of electrical grid storage on Hacker News. The recap, NRLB filing linked in this article is not alleging that Cognizant employees are doing the same work as FTEs at google. It's alleging that by having contractors return to the office, and setting other policies like sick leave Google is now a joint employer. The idea that Google is using FTEs and contractors to fulfill the same functions is not supported by the NRLB finding. It's not even a topic that the NRLB is discussing in this document. The NRLB is trying to claim that setting RTO and PTO policies makes Google a joint employer, despite contractors doing separate work from FTEs. If you're only willing to say "it happens but I can't give any further details or examples" then just say so and be willing to accept that this doesn't meet many people's epistemic thresholds.