5 ms·

Misusing contractors to perform the same work as full time employees is a separate allegation. If I recall, Microsoft got in trouble with that. But my understan

Misusing contractors to perform the same work as full time employees is a separate allegation. If I recall, Microsoft got in trouble with that. But my understanding is that contractors at Google are pretty clearly separate from the employee base. For instance the contract workforce involved in scanning Google books where housed in separate offices had different badges and more. Regardless, I'm still not seeing the rationale for why employees of a contracting corporation are supposed to be negotiating directly with customers. My sister worked at Accenture. If she wanted a raised why would she try and negotiate with who her customer she was working with at the time, given that her bosses at Accenture are the ones that set her salary?

sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
No, that’s wrong, TVC do the same work on the same teams as “real” employees.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  I'd be interested in details on how Google is using TVCs for the same functions as full time employees.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here, even if someone was like "yeah sure let me pick a public fight with the trillion dollar company". Vouch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Some of us have a higher epistemic threshold than, "people on HN say it happens".
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        This is the 5th or 6th time you've written a reply like this to me, after I pointed out I worked at Google
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        Because you're just saying this happens, without actually detailing an example of it happening. What teams are using contract work for the same functions as fill time work? What specific work items are being done by both full time and contractors? Right now you're not giving any details or other way to confirm your claims besides "I work at Google, trust me bro." There are plenty of people who work at Google that say the opposite, that contractors aren't doing the same work as full time employees.
        refulgentis 3y ago
        Yeah I asked for deets on what you needed to know 3 times yesterday, the only time you acknowledged it was to complain at length you were being linked to another comment. > What teams are using contract work for the same functions as fill time work? Are you asking for the organizations, teams, projects, managers to be named? Depending on what you need, that's a lot of exposure and I'm not sure that'll assuage your concerns its "trust me bro". I have seen it in the ******** and ****** organizations. > What specific work items are being done by both full time and contractors? Software engineering and design. They're embedded in the teams, there was never a single difference between my TVC/non-TVC ex-coworkers other than their security badge color. They were not brought on for temporary or time-bounded projects. Before you follow up: I appreciate your skepticism, but it's unclear if it's earnest or a lure. I don't have any legal protection from a trillion dollar company so I can't write a gossip-y essay naming names and giving you case studies, but I'm happy to answer any questions short of that. Like I said yesterday, it's very unclear what specifically what change your mind here -- especially now that you're claiming "plenty [of Googlers] say it isn't true". There isn't a single comment on this entire article, and it tremendously beggars belief that any Googler would tell you it wasn't true. If I worked at McDonald's, its like a stranger yelling at me that I'm lying because other McDonald's employees said no one has to wear a nametag. Please consider the emotions you implicitly communicate, it's quite frightening interacting with you given how aggressively you're communicating.
  - sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
    Literally same tasks, same teams. One person has a Googley badge one has a red badge. One gets various Googley perks, one doesn’t. One is treated with the four respects; one isn’t.
    - Ferret7446 3y ago
      You've listed quite a lot of actual differences. I don't think working on the same tasks makes a vendor into an employee.
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Again, is there anything evidence for this happening besides "people on HN say so"? The New York Times wrote a piece on Google's contractors, and the closest it comes to making this claim is writing that they "sometimes work side by side" with full time employees. That's not even close to saying they're doing the same job, though. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-workers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-wo...
  - sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
    [flagged]
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  If you have information, please get in touch with the workers' legal representatives or the NLRB.
dharmab 3y ago
> On March 3, 2023, the Regional Director issued a Decision and Direction of Election in which he found Respondent Cognizant and Respondent Google to be joint employers of the petitioned-for employees. https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d4583c083ab https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d4583c083ab
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  This is the controversial part of the ruling that is raising a lot of eyebrows. The NLRB (a quasi-governmental organization) is essentially saying that Google has the responsibility to negotiate with these people despite not actually being their employer. That's what's surprising here: the NLRB is explicitly acknowledging that Google doesn't set the Cognizant employees' pay, but is supposed to participate in negotiations to do... something. This is distinct from what the previous comment was about: the practice of using contractors for the same functions as full time employees. That's a totally separate thing than unions. Companies can get in trouble for using contractors for the same jobs as employees even if there's no union involved.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    Right, but: they're the same thing in the context we're commenting on. The NLRB is saying "you know that vendor thing that means they don't gotta bargain? big sham! They gotta bargain!"
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Bargain how? They don't set these employees wages. Cognizant does. How is Google supposed to meaningfully negotiate when Cognizant is the one that's actually employing these people? Previously, this only came into effect if companies were using contractors for the same functions as full time employees. And the outcomes in those cases was often to make the company hire on the contractors full time, not dragging a company's customers into it labor disputes. Plenty of people have been alleging this, but none have substantiated allegations that Google is using contractors for the same work as employees.
Terr_ 3y ago
> housed in separate offices had different badges and more. I don't think that particular kind of "separation" is conclusive, just suggestive. Imagine that Acme corporation direct-hires a few hundred workers and then splits them into two groups, with different badges and offices and branding and e-mails. While clear differences would exist, they wouldn't be the right kind of difference that could alter their legal classification as Acme employees.

sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago

No, that’s wrong, TVC do the same work on the same teams as “real” employees.

Manuel_D 3y ago
I'd be interested in details on how Google is using TVCs for the same functions as full time employees.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here, even if someone was like "yeah sure let me pick a public fight with the trillion dollar company". Vouch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    Some of us have a higher epistemic threshold than, "people on HN say it happens".
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      This is the 5th or 6th time you've written a reply like this to me, after I pointed out I worked at Google
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        Because you're just saying this happens, without actually detailing an example of it happening. What teams are using contract work for the same functions as fill time work? What specific work items are being done by both full time and contractors? Right now you're not giving any details or other way to confirm your claims besides "I work at Google, trust me bro." There are plenty of people who work at Google that say the opposite, that contractors aren't doing the same work as full time employees.
        refulgentis 3y ago
        Yeah I asked for deets on what you needed to know 3 times yesterday, the only time you acknowledged it was to complain at length you were being linked to another comment. > What teams are using contract work for the same functions as fill time work? Are you asking for the organizations, teams, projects, managers to be named? Depending on what you need, that's a lot of exposure and I'm not sure that'll assuage your concerns its "trust me bro". I have seen it in the ******** and ****** organizations. > What specific work items are being done by both full time and contractors? Software engineering and design. They're embedded in the teams, there was never a single difference between my TVC/non-TVC ex-coworkers other than their security badge color. They were not brought on for temporary or time-bounded projects. Before you follow up: I appreciate your skepticism, but it's unclear if it's earnest or a lure. I don't have any legal protection from a trillion dollar company so I can't write a gossip-y essay naming names and giving you case studies, but I'm happy to answer any questions short of that. Like I said yesterday, it's very unclear what specifically what change your mind here -- especially now that you're claiming "plenty [of Googlers] say it isn't true". There isn't a single comment on this entire article, and it tremendously beggars belief that any Googler would tell you it wasn't true. If I worked at McDonald's, its like a stranger yelling at me that I'm lying because other McDonald's employees said no one has to wear a nametag. Please consider the emotions you implicitly communicate, it's quite frightening interacting with you given how aggressively you're communicating.
- sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
  Literally same tasks, same teams. One person has a Googley badge one has a red badge. One gets various Googley perks, one doesn’t. One is treated with the four respects; one isn’t.
  - Ferret7446 3y ago
    You've listed quite a lot of actual differences. I don't think working on the same tasks makes a vendor into an employee.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    Again, is there anything evidence for this happening besides "people on HN say so"? The New York Times wrote a piece on Google's contractors, and the closest it comes to making this claim is writing that they "sometimes work side by side" with full time employees. That's not even close to saying they're doing the same job, though. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-workers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-wo...
- sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
  [flagged]
heavyset_go 3y ago
If you have information, please get in touch with the workers' legal representatives or the NLRB.

dharmab 3y ago

> On March 3, 2023, the Regional Director issued a Decision and Direction of Election in which he found Respondent Cognizant and Respondent Google to be joint employers of the petitioned-for employees. https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d4583c083ab https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d4583c083ab

Manuel_D 3y ago
This is the controversial part of the ruling that is raising a lot of eyebrows. The NLRB (a quasi-governmental organization) is essentially saying that Google has the responsibility to negotiate with these people despite not actually being their employer. That's what's surprising here: the NLRB is explicitly acknowledging that Google doesn't set the Cognizant employees' pay, but is supposed to participate in negotiations to do... something. This is distinct from what the previous comment was about: the practice of using contractors for the same functions as full time employees. That's a totally separate thing than unions. Companies can get in trouble for using contractors for the same jobs as employees even if there's no union involved.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Right, but: they're the same thing in the context we're commenting on. The NLRB is saying "you know that vendor thing that means they don't gotta bargain? big sham! They gotta bargain!"
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    Bargain how? They don't set these employees wages. Cognizant does. How is Google supposed to meaningfully negotiate when Cognizant is the one that's actually employing these people? Previously, this only came into effect if companies were using contractors for the same functions as full time employees. And the outcomes in those cases was often to make the company hire on the contractors full time, not dragging a company's customers into it labor disputes. Plenty of people have been alleging this, but none have substantiated allegations that Google is using contractors for the same work as employees.

Terr_ 3y ago

> housed in separate offices had different badges and more. I don't think that particular kind of "separation" is conclusive, just suggestive. Imagine that Acme corporation direct-hires a few hundred workers and then splits them into two groups, with different badges and offices and branding and e-mails. While clear differences would exist, they wouldn't be the right kind of difference that could alter their legal classification as Acme employees.