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The Spirit Level [1] makes a good argument for why more equal societies benefit everyone within them. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that "Satya Na

The Spirit Level [1] makes a good argument for why more equal societies benefit everyone within them. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that "Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse" is not definitively true. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

amelius 3y ago
I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it. I'm not ok with those people using their money against me in any way, which is what still happens and nobody talks about.
- digging 3y ago
  > I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it Is that an accurate description of CEOs worth billions of dollars though? How hard are they supposedly working? I'm probably lazier than most of them as an IC with disabilities and non-work interests... but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do.
  - Snow_Falls 3y ago
    If hard work were accurately linked to monetary benefit, poor African substinamce farmers would be some of the richest people on earth. Clearly that isn't the case, money come from more thanjust hard work. Luck has a lot to do with it, such as not being born an African substinamce farmer.
    - Pyrobyte 3y ago
      But isn't there a great deal of skill involved, depending on the skill level and how rare a certain skills is. People will be payed a lot more. It must take a great deal of stress and difficulty to get a business to a scale where their CEO is making billions.
  - nec4b 3y ago
    >> but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do. But you do understand why a popular singer or a football player get that much more than you?
margalabargala 3y ago
I think you and the person you replied to are talking about two different things here. OP is saying "in terms of goals, the end goal should be reduction of poverty, not reduction of rich people". You're saying "in reality, data says that reduction of rich people tends to correlate with reduction of poverty", thus opening up reduction of rich people as one potential path towards the reduction of poverty. I don't think it's been definitively demonstrated that the existence of rich people necessitates the existence of poverty. I would agree that, in reality, the creation of rich people tends to also lead to the creation of poverty.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago
  There's rich people, and then there's the ultra rich people. It just doesn't seem possible to become a billionaire through ethical means.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    James Patterson just wrote books people like and he’s a billionaire. Are murder stories unethical or something?
    - Philpax 3y ago
      Does he write his own books, though? [0] [1] [2] It's his name on the front of the book, but he is not necessarily the primary author. That sounds a little unethical to me. [0] https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-Patterson-the-best-seller-who-doesn-t-write-his-own-books https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-P... [1] https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-to-be-the-worlds-bestselling-author-75261 https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/james-patterson-a7665576.html https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/featu...
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        Stephen King then? Or J K Rowling? They became billionaires off their work and wrote all their own work if image rights are unethical to you. Taylor Swift, perhaps? Paul McCartney. You only need one example to disprove the case. It doesn’t seem ridiculous that if you make something and charge $10 and 100 million people pay you that you’re necessarily doing something unethical.
NegativeLatency 3y ago
Even if any singular ultra wealthy person is doing nice things, you'll still have bad actors like the Koch brothers who are actively trying (and succeeding) to subvert our government systems to their own benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_brothers#The_Koch_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Ko... Which is why we need governmental solutions, laws, taxes, etc and can't rely on just good will. I havent read the book you recomended, but I will check it out. I'd also recomend the book "On Corruption in America: And What Is at Stake" as it's a great description of how global elites have largely captured government for their own ends since the gilded age.
- EnigmaFlare 3y ago
  That's just political campaigning, isn't it? How is that "subverting" or "bad actors"?
  - scottyah 3y ago
    Because they're the bad guys
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
    Because the rule of law democratic processes are being tossed aside to accommodate said bad actors hence the apt moniker.
    - EnigmaFlare 3y ago
      I didn't pick that up from the referenced page. This work was illegal?
- flandish 3y ago
  Anyone ultra wealthy has obtained it through active or past exploitation. Profit, dividends, and buybacks are unpaid wage.
- codegrappler 3y ago
  Yet you think government corruption wouldn’t become an equal (or worse) problem?
jdietrich 3y ago
The "Re-analyses and alleged failures to replicate" section of that Wikipedia article is really rather important - the idea that inequality causes problems independent of poverty relies on a lot of questionable assumptions and analyses.

amelius 3y ago

I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it. I'm not ok with those people using their money against me in any way, which is what still happens and nobody talks about.

digging 3y ago
> I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it Is that an accurate description of CEOs worth billions of dollars though? How hard are they supposedly working? I'm probably lazier than most of them as an IC with disabilities and non-work interests... but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do.
- Snow_Falls 3y ago
  If hard work were accurately linked to monetary benefit, poor African substinamce farmers would be some of the richest people on earth. Clearly that isn't the case, money come from more thanjust hard work. Luck has a lot to do with it, such as not being born an African substinamce farmer.
  - Pyrobyte 3y ago
    But isn't there a great deal of skill involved, depending on the skill level and how rare a certain skills is. People will be payed a lot more. It must take a great deal of stress and difficulty to get a business to a scale where their CEO is making billions.
- nec4b 3y ago
  >> but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do. But you do understand why a popular singer or a football player get that much more than you?

margalabargala 3y ago

I think you and the person you replied to are talking about two different things here. OP is saying "in terms of goals, the end goal should be reduction of poverty, not reduction of rich people". You're saying "in reality, data says that reduction of rich people tends to correlate with reduction of poverty", thus opening up reduction of rich people as one potential path towards the reduction of poverty. I don't think it's been definitively demonstrated that the existence of rich people necessitates the existence of poverty. I would agree that, in reality, the creation of rich people tends to also lead to the creation of poverty.

NegativeLatency 3y ago
There's rich people, and then there's the ultra rich people. It just doesn't seem possible to become a billionaire through ethical means.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  James Patterson just wrote books people like and he’s a billionaire. Are murder stories unethical or something?
  - Philpax 3y ago
    Does he write his own books, though? [0] [1] [2] It's his name on the front of the book, but he is not necessarily the primary author. That sounds a little unethical to me. [0] https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-Patterson-the-best-seller-who-doesn-t-write-his-own-books https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-P... [1] https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-to-be-the-worlds-bestselling-author-75261 https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/james-patterson-a7665576.html https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/featu...
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Stephen King then? Or J K Rowling? They became billionaires off their work and wrote all their own work if image rights are unethical to you. Taylor Swift, perhaps? Paul McCartney. You only need one example to disprove the case. It doesn’t seem ridiculous that if you make something and charge $10 and 100 million people pay you that you’re necessarily doing something unethical.

NegativeLatency 3y ago

Even if any singular ultra wealthy person is doing nice things, you'll still have bad actors like the Koch brothers who are actively trying (and succeeding) to subvert our government systems to their own benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_brothers#The_Koch_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Ko... Which is why we need governmental solutions, laws, taxes, etc and can't rely on just good will. I havent read the book you recomended, but I will check it out. I'd also recomend the book "On Corruption in America: And What Is at Stake" as it's a great description of how global elites have largely captured government for their own ends since the gilded age.

EnigmaFlare 3y ago
That's just political campaigning, isn't it? How is that "subverting" or "bad actors"?
- scottyah 3y ago
  Because they're the bad guys
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
  Because the rule of law democratic processes are being tossed aside to accommodate said bad actors hence the apt moniker.
  - EnigmaFlare 3y ago
    I didn't pick that up from the referenced page. This work was illegal?
flandish 3y ago
Anyone ultra wealthy has obtained it through active or past exploitation. Profit, dividends, and buybacks are unpaid wage.
codegrappler 3y ago
Yet you think government corruption wouldn’t become an equal (or worse) problem?

jdietrich 3y ago

The "Re-analyses and alleged failures to replicate" section of that Wikipedia article is really rather important - the idea that inequality causes problems independent of poverty relies on a lot of questionable assumptions and analyses.