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Hard to not feel like we are the baddies on this one. The same coalition could push for a peaceful solution in Israel and Palestine, which would also eliminate

Hard to not feel like we are the baddies on this one. The same coalition could push for a peaceful solution in Israel and Palestine, which would also eliminate Iranian influence in the region, but instead they let the far-right in Israel create a mess and we get pulled along for a big conflict with Iran.

The_Colonel 3y ago
I agree, we're the baddies here. But a peaceful solution seems like a pipe dream. It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. It doesn't help that Netanyahu has a personal interest in the war, it's basically his Hail Mary to save his career. In any case, the West should pull its support from Israel, though.
- jesusofnazarath 3y ago
  [dead]
- ekanes 3y ago
  I agree about Netanyahu, sadly. But regarding a peaceful solution, one has to take into account the mentality and stated position of the two sides. Whatever one thinks about land and settlements, it's worth noting that the Israelis are fighting against an opponent who targets their civilian population with the standard terror tactics along with systematic rape and torture [1], and who maintains that they will never stop as long as Israel exists (not borders, not land, nothing short of Israel's destruction). The people advocating for a ceasefire generally aren't proposing a solution to the Israeli and international hostages held by Hamas, and who could be returned to Israel if Hamas truly wanted a ceasefire. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-at...
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    On the one hand, Hamas terrorizes the Israeli population. On the other hand, Israel has a decades-long genocidal plan against the West Bank. The fact that it's done quietly doesn't change its intent. The intractability of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is: neither side is good, because both see the conflict as a fight for survival, and therefore justifying terrible means.
    - yyyk 3y ago
      If Israel had a genocidal plan against the West Bank, nobody would be alive there by now. It's just that people need to invent stuff for reasons.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        No, that's just if they were obvious about it. Which is why one of the definitions of genocide is deliberately keeping a population fragmented, with the goal of eventual eradication.
        yyyk 3y ago
        If you define everything as genocide, than of course genocide is everything. 'Keeping a population fragmented' is so vague it's almost everything, except genocide which requires killing people.
  - Qem 3y ago
    > it's worth noting that the Israelis are fighting against an opponent who targets their civilian population with the standard terror tactics along with systematic rape and torture [1]. Even feminist organizations are raising doubts about NYT "investigation". See https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigation-weaponizing-sexual-violence-against-women-for-occupation-propaganda/ https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigat... Also the family of Gal Abdush, a named victim, is distancing from the claims in the NYT report: https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742251230922187212 https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742251230922187212
    - ekanes 3y ago
      The footage of terrorists laughing as they torture and cut people up is deeply disturbing and shouldn't be dismissed. Sometimes, evil is simply evil. :(
- mustafa_pasi 3y ago
  Here is something I don't understand. Of all the factions in Israeli politics, why is the US supporting the most far-right one? Because support for US amongst Israelis is high either way, and the usefulness of Israel for the US is arguably higher if it had more moderate politics. Some of these questions are not explainable by Realpolitik. Same with the Palestinian question. If you were concerned about Iran you'd want a peaceful long lasting solution that defangs Iran grip in the region. It just doesn't make sense.
  - prepend 3y ago
    Isn’t it because that’s the group in power in Israel? I’m not sure it’s a good idea to support particular parties within sovereign nations. Although the US and others do this very frequently. I figured it was the same way countries worked with the US during 2017-2021. It didn’t mean they supported a far right position, just that they wanted to work with the US and interacted with the group in charge.
    - mustafa_pasi 3y ago
      If Netanyahu was treated with the same ridicule and disdain that Trump was during his four years as POTUS, that would be a huge step in the right direction. But he is not. On German TV, they said, part of the reason they don't treat Netanyahu with more open hostility is because they fear he would lash out even more aggressively. I'm not sure if that is a good justification.
      - prepend 3y ago
        I think showing “disdain” for democratically elected leaders is pretty counterproductive. If countries start treating leaders of other countries they don’t like with “open hostility” won’t that just result in fewer interactions and less work among countries?
  - edanm 3y ago
    The US isn't supporting a specific faction, it's supporting Israel in general, and that faction is (very sadly) in charge. The US has reportedly made quiet overtures to the other parties, and certainly Obama and Biden haven't exactly been fans of Netanyahu, but he is in charge at the moment.
- Qem 3y ago
  > But a peaceful solution seems like a pipe dream. It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. We need to use the same recipe used in South Africa, isolating the apartheid regime until it is forced to negotiate in good faith.
- baryphonic 3y ago
  > It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have repeatedly rejected any two-state solution proposals. Hamas in particular has always resorted to terrorism. The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population. Yitzhak Rabin would presumably disagree.
    - baryphonic 3y ago
      Interesting you bring Rabin up, because it's a good point of comparison. How has Israel treated Yigal Amir? How has Hamas treated the 10/7 terrorists? How many Israelis support what Amir did? How many Gazans support the 10/7 terrorists?
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Probably about what you'd expect, given one country has a functioning economy and the other doesn't. [0] There are whackos on both the Israeli and Palestinian side. The difference is that Gaza has 25-45% unemployment. [1] At the end of the day as James Carville reduced it: 'it's the economy, stupid.' [2] People with economic prospects are happy and stable. People without are willing to take insane risks. And at the end of the day, most people just want to live their life (there will always be crazies, but they'll be outnumbered). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Amir's_release https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Ami... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid
prepend 3y ago
Do you think these are exclusive options? The coalition is pushing for a peaceful solution in Israel and Palestine. Just like in Ukraine. And at the same time, they’re going to blow up a bunch of Houthis.
yyyk 3y ago
The Houthis are very much independent of the I-P mess, and same for all Iranian influence which is based on local Shiite militia - with their own reasons for existing, like 'spreading the revolution'.

The_Colonel 3y ago

I agree, we're the baddies here. But a peaceful solution seems like a pipe dream. It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. It doesn't help that Netanyahu has a personal interest in the war, it's basically his Hail Mary to save his career. In any case, the West should pull its support from Israel, though.

jesusofnazarath 3y ago
[dead]
ekanes 3y ago
I agree about Netanyahu, sadly. But regarding a peaceful solution, one has to take into account the mentality and stated position of the two sides. Whatever one thinks about land and settlements, it's worth noting that the Israelis are fighting against an opponent who targets their civilian population with the standard terror tactics along with systematic rape and torture [1], and who maintains that they will never stop as long as Israel exists (not borders, not land, nothing short of Israel's destruction). The people advocating for a ceasefire generally aren't proposing a solution to the Israeli and international hostages held by Hamas, and who could be returned to Israel if Hamas truly wanted a ceasefire. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-at...
- ethbr1 3y ago
  On the one hand, Hamas terrorizes the Israeli population. On the other hand, Israel has a decades-long genocidal plan against the West Bank. The fact that it's done quietly doesn't change its intent. The intractability of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is: neither side is good, because both see the conflict as a fight for survival, and therefore justifying terrible means.
  - yyyk 3y ago
    If Israel had a genocidal plan against the West Bank, nobody would be alive there by now. It's just that people need to invent stuff for reasons.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      No, that's just if they were obvious about it. Which is why one of the definitions of genocide is deliberately keeping a population fragmented, with the goal of eventual eradication.
      - yyyk 3y ago
        If you define everything as genocide, than of course genocide is everything. 'Keeping a population fragmented' is so vague it's almost everything, except genocide which requires killing people.
- Qem 3y ago
  > it's worth noting that the Israelis are fighting against an opponent who targets their civilian population with the standard terror tactics along with systematic rape and torture [1]. Even feminist organizations are raising doubts about NYT "investigation". See https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigation-weaponizing-sexual-violence-against-women-for-occupation-propaganda/ https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigat... Also the family of Gal Abdush, a named victim, is distancing from the claims in the NYT report: https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742251230922187212 https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742251230922187212
  - ekanes 3y ago
    The footage of terrorists laughing as they torture and cut people up is deeply disturbing and shouldn't be dismissed. Sometimes, evil is simply evil. :(
mustafa_pasi 3y ago
Here is something I don't understand. Of all the factions in Israeli politics, why is the US supporting the most far-right one? Because support for US amongst Israelis is high either way, and the usefulness of Israel for the US is arguably higher if it had more moderate politics. Some of these questions are not explainable by Realpolitik. Same with the Palestinian question. If you were concerned about Iran you'd want a peaceful long lasting solution that defangs Iran grip in the region. It just doesn't make sense.
- prepend 3y ago
  Isn’t it because that’s the group in power in Israel? I’m not sure it’s a good idea to support particular parties within sovereign nations. Although the US and others do this very frequently. I figured it was the same way countries worked with the US during 2017-2021. It didn’t mean they supported a far right position, just that they wanted to work with the US and interacted with the group in charge.
  - mustafa_pasi 3y ago
    If Netanyahu was treated with the same ridicule and disdain that Trump was during his four years as POTUS, that would be a huge step in the right direction. But he is not. On German TV, they said, part of the reason they don't treat Netanyahu with more open hostility is because they fear he would lash out even more aggressively. I'm not sure if that is a good justification.
    - prepend 3y ago
      I think showing “disdain” for democratically elected leaders is pretty counterproductive. If countries start treating leaders of other countries they don’t like with “open hostility” won’t that just result in fewer interactions and less work among countries?
- edanm 3y ago
  The US isn't supporting a specific faction, it's supporting Israel in general, and that faction is (very sadly) in charge. The US has reportedly made quiet overtures to the other parties, and certainly Obama and Biden haven't exactly been fans of Netanyahu, but he is in charge at the moment.
Qem 3y ago
> But a peaceful solution seems like a pipe dream. It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. We need to use the same recipe used in South Africa, isolating the apartheid regime until it is forced to negotiate in good faith.
baryphonic 3y ago
> It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have repeatedly rejected any two-state solution proposals. Hamas in particular has always resorted to terrorism. The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population. Yitzhak Rabin would presumably disagree.
  - baryphonic 3y ago
    Interesting you bring Rabin up, because it's a good point of comparison. How has Israel treated Yigal Amir? How has Hamas treated the 10/7 terrorists? How many Israelis support what Amir did? How many Gazans support the 10/7 terrorists?
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Probably about what you'd expect, given one country has a functioning economy and the other doesn't. [0] There are whackos on both the Israeli and Palestinian side. The difference is that Gaza has 25-45% unemployment. [1] At the end of the day as James Carville reduced it: 'it's the economy, stupid.' [2] People with economic prospects are happy and stable. People without are willing to take insane risks. And at the end of the day, most people just want to live their life (there will always be crazies, but they'll be outnumbered). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Amir's_release https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Ami... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid

prepend 3y ago

Do you think these are exclusive options? The coalition is pushing for a peaceful solution in Israel and Palestine. Just like in Ukraine. And at the same time, they’re going to blow up a bunch of Houthis.

yyyk 3y ago

The Houthis are very much independent of the I-P mess, and same for all Iranian influence which is based on local Shiite militia - with their own reasons for existing, like 'spreading the revolution'.