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I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content... A personal recent anecdote. I wanted to watch Interstellar again a few days ago. Beginning of the pr

by _hao 3y ago

I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content... A personal recent anecdote. I wanted to watch Interstellar again a few days ago. Beginning of the previous month I saw it on Prime/Netflix or both (can't remember). A month later when I wanted to actually watch it it was gone from both services... I got really pissed off, but I rented it from Prime, because I wanted to watch it with my family "now". Your app that does random thing "X" does not need a subscription. Stop. Doing. This. This rent seeking behaviour doesn't pose well for any of us.

madeofpalk 3y ago
> Your app that does random thing "X" does not need a subscription. I don't think it's quite that straight forward. Software is undervalued - people are not prepared to pay a real sustainable price for it, while also expecting constant updates and maintance. Users who paid $5 for an app five years ago will expect an update for the new iOS to add widget support, for example. Subscriptions better ensure incremental income for incremental updates.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  However subscriptions often set the expectation that you must consume incremental updates, when really I would often be happier to stay at a particular version. Often made worse by the implicit assumption that since you are paying something has to change, leading to changes without clear purpose.
  - neilalexander 3y ago
    Exactly this. More often than not with proprietary software, I'd rather spend £20 once and expect stability than pay £1.99/month and find that things are constantly changed/broken/"improved"/worsened for no reason. I actually don't dislike the model that TablePlus etc use also, where my purchase grants me updates for a year. If I want more updates after that, I pay again. If not, I sit still on the version that I'm on forever more.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      Similar to Jetbrains. I do pay annually because there are real benefits with each release, but I'm not doing a subscription for your git client.
      - Log_out_ 3y ago
        The worst are subscriptions where you pay and a perfectly fine product gets worse over time.
      - wongarsu 3y ago
        This also properly aligns incentives. You continue to pay as long as updates provide value to you. As soon as updates provide no or negative value you can just cancel payments and stay on the version you like.
    - danaris 3y ago
      ...So long as whatever auto-update mechanism the software has can recognize where your paid support ends. I've had a problem in the past (I'm afraid I no longer recall what the software was offhand) where I paid for something with a model like you describe, but then after my support ended, the auto-updater updated me to a version that I hadn't paid for—and I was dumped back onto "free trial" mode. The auto-updater also needs to not notify me of updates that I can't get without paying. That's just spam at that point. Apart from that, I generally agree that that's a decent model to follow.
    - Engineering-MD 3y ago
      Agenda app for iOS also uses this model.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  Good software doesn’t need constant updates or maintenance. Personally I hate the culture of incremental updates, shipping halfbroken beta versions, bolting on security as last measure because who gives a fuck about dataleaks. Everyone trying to build an everything app and sucking up all the data they can get their hands on. The sad thing is nowadays most software „engineers“ or product „managers“ can’t even imagine an alternative to this. Write a program that does one thing well and you don’t need to constantly update it.
  - orwin 3y ago
    > Good software doesn’t need constant updates or maintenance It does though. Unless your software just play a perfect 440hz A. Even a simple homemade tuner (my first and only android app) can't run on new phones without having to be updated (sadly. I use an ad-riddled one now :/)
    - Kbelicius 3y ago
      The word you missed in GPs post is "constant".
      - orwin 3y ago
        I don't think this qualifier is useful here. My very simple app needed 'constant' updates to avoid falling behind and needing a huge rework after 8 years. Constant here meant regular. Following android Api updates is constant work. It can also mean that the intensity of work needed is the same, but I don't think it's the idea there (if it is, I disagree with the idea too, for different reason). I think his idea was that good software exists in a nutshell and does not need upgrade. Which is true for embedded, like the arduino that manage the doors of my father's chicken coop (ideally. The photoresistor disagree here when I think about it, but the software is bad so that kinda prove GGP's point). Not as true for software with complex human interfaces though.
        xorcist 3y ago
        GNU grep is 100k lines of code (including header files and tests). That's probably just as complex as any random Android application. Yet I don't expect it to need a huge rework after 8 years. In fact, if it changed interface in any meaningful way, it would immediately be forked by impatient users who have jobs to do. I cannot wait until the mobile ecosystem is anywhere near that useful.
- delusional 3y ago
  It's a strange mix of simultaneous under- and overvaluation. Single applications are undervalued, but the entire industry is overvalued. Our innovative user exploitation tactics have enabled the profitable creation of tons of software with no underlying value. The software us undervalued compared to what it costs to produce, but overvalued in terms of what it's worth to users.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Stability updates to deal with API changes, perhaps. New features like widgets? I'm not so sure. I've paid for an MP3 player app six years ago and the APK still works fine, although the UI looks a bit wonky on a phone screen four times the size of what I had back in the day. I don't expect anything more than an update in case MP3 playback somehow breaks. Maybe this is different in recent years, with iOS putting the burden of backwards compatibility more with the developers and Google now following suit in their attempts to add decent privacy restrictions to a previously unrestricted API, but I think consumers don't expect all that much from one-time purchases. You'll lose market share if you don't add new features, as well as new customers if your app is falling behind others, but that's a separate problem. On the other hand, the moment you ask just a single euro per year as a subscription, people expect to be up to date all the time. After all, you're still charging them even, so why wouldn't the app ever improve? Everyone knows a software business does better with recurring revenue instead of single purchases, but customer expectations are also higher if they're still paying you five years down the line.
- yetihehe 3y ago
  I've bought a game recently. It's pretty nice, but it has one problem - a big multiplayer universe which requires some servers to keep up, but the game is not subscription based. The result - quotas on the one small server cluster, so every evening there are constant "Blue Cobra" or "Taupe Python" or similar errors which are just "we don't have enough money for more servers, don't like it don't play, we have your money already".
- ant6n 3y ago
  The prices are usually set mich higher tho. That app that costs 5$, for which the user perhaps expects an update 5 years later won’t move to a subscription model for 1$ per year, but probably 1$ per month. Over 5 years that’ll be a tenfold increase.
- RhysU 3y ago
  > Software is undervalued The best indicator of the value of a thing is the price at which free parties trade it.
- M95D 3y ago
  And yet, Total Commander is selling since 1993 (Windows Commander back then) and is still updated today.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content I never left. I'm only paying for software and games. IP owned by big music and movie studios is free game since they're scummy with their licensing.
- AwaAwa 3y ago
  If you are talking about being scummy as the root reason, shouldn't the plethora of AAA games released in a beta state count? Add in the DLCs and possible subscriptions for "features".
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
>I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content... Made the jump back a few weeks ago. Incidentally the Intel N100 processor NUCs make a great <$250 Jellyfin server
- bambax 3y ago
  I went the Asustor route and am very happy so far. It's a general filer, backup machine, and Jellyfin server. There are two problems with subscription services that your own server solves: 1. Shows you like suddenly disappear for no reason (as in GP) 2. They contain a huge amount of things you don't care for, that you can never truly filter out no matter how hard you try. Your own media server contains all (or most of) the shows you like, and only those.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    `2.` is a big one. I want to be able to filter out crap I'm not interested in. I want to be able to set something as watched that I've already watched outside of your particular service. I want to be able to set something as unwatched because I'm going to do a re-run. I want to be able to set individual episodes as unwatched because I fell asleep with it on and want to actually watch it (maybe a few days down the line). I really want control over the library. The current model of most (all?) streaming services is just something I don't want to deal with.
    - bambax 3y ago
      Yes, and you can do all of this (and more) on Jellyfin.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        I know. On Plex as well. I want to like Jellyfin. I've been running it in parallel with Plex for at least 3 or 4 years. It doesn't work well most of the time for me though - mostly client-side issues like bad rendering, issues with subtitles, videos hanging during seek, many others... I could live with some of the issues I've found but every time I hop on JF I run back to Plex. As much as I hate some things Plex have been doing and the lack of troubleshootability when things go wrong, it mostly works most of the time. JF mostly doesn't work most of the time (again, for me - it seems it's excellent for a lot of people!).
sschueller 3y ago
If buying isn't owning then piracy isn't stealing...
- eth0up 3y ago
  Nope. Just authorized/unauthorized access, from an arbitrary system POV. No worries though; hell will be fully authorized for those who can't afford purgatory.

by _hao 3y ago

madeofpalk 3y ago

> Your app that does random thing "X" does not need a subscription. I don't think it's quite that straight forward. Software is undervalued - people are not prepared to pay a real sustainable price for it, while also expecting constant updates and maintance. Users who paid $5 for an app five years ago will expect an update for the new iOS to add widget support, for example. Subscriptions better ensure incremental income for incremental updates.

wongarsu 3y ago
However subscriptions often set the expectation that you must consume incremental updates, when really I would often be happier to stay at a particular version. Often made worse by the implicit assumption that since you are paying something has to change, leading to changes without clear purpose.
- neilalexander 3y ago
  Exactly this. More often than not with proprietary software, I'd rather spend £20 once and expect stability than pay £1.99/month and find that things are constantly changed/broken/"improved"/worsened for no reason. I actually don't dislike the model that TablePlus etc use also, where my purchase grants me updates for a year. If I want more updates after that, I pay again. If not, I sit still on the version that I'm on forever more.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    Similar to Jetbrains. I do pay annually because there are real benefits with each release, but I'm not doing a subscription for your git client.
    - Log_out_ 3y ago
      The worst are subscriptions where you pay and a perfectly fine product gets worse over time.
    - wongarsu 3y ago
      This also properly aligns incentives. You continue to pay as long as updates provide value to you. As soon as updates provide no or negative value you can just cancel payments and stay on the version you like.
  - danaris 3y ago
    ...So long as whatever auto-update mechanism the software has can recognize where your paid support ends. I've had a problem in the past (I'm afraid I no longer recall what the software was offhand) where I paid for something with a model like you describe, but then after my support ended, the auto-updater updated me to a version that I hadn't paid for—and I was dumped back onto "free trial" mode. The auto-updater also needs to not notify me of updates that I can't get without paying. That's just spam at that point. Apart from that, I generally agree that that's a decent model to follow.
  - Engineering-MD 3y ago
    Agenda app for iOS also uses this model.
sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
Good software doesn’t need constant updates or maintenance. Personally I hate the culture of incremental updates, shipping halfbroken beta versions, bolting on security as last measure because who gives a fuck about dataleaks. Everyone trying to build an everything app and sucking up all the data they can get their hands on. The sad thing is nowadays most software „engineers“ or product „managers“ can’t even imagine an alternative to this. Write a program that does one thing well and you don’t need to constantly update it.
- orwin 3y ago
  > Good software doesn’t need constant updates or maintenance It does though. Unless your software just play a perfect 440hz A. Even a simple homemade tuner (my first and only android app) can't run on new phones without having to be updated (sadly. I use an ad-riddled one now :/)
  - Kbelicius 3y ago
    The word you missed in GPs post is "constant".
    - orwin 3y ago
      I don't think this qualifier is useful here. My very simple app needed 'constant' updates to avoid falling behind and needing a huge rework after 8 years. Constant here meant regular. Following android Api updates is constant work. It can also mean that the intensity of work needed is the same, but I don't think it's the idea there (if it is, I disagree with the idea too, for different reason). I think his idea was that good software exists in a nutshell and does not need upgrade. Which is true for embedded, like the arduino that manage the doors of my father's chicken coop (ideally. The photoresistor disagree here when I think about it, but the software is bad so that kinda prove GGP's point). Not as true for software with complex human interfaces though.
      - xorcist 3y ago
        GNU grep is 100k lines of code (including header files and tests). That's probably just as complex as any random Android application. Yet I don't expect it to need a huge rework after 8 years. In fact, if it changed interface in any meaningful way, it would immediately be forked by impatient users who have jobs to do. I cannot wait until the mobile ecosystem is anywhere near that useful.
delusional 3y ago
It's a strange mix of simultaneous under- and overvaluation. Single applications are undervalued, but the entire industry is overvalued. Our innovative user exploitation tactics have enabled the profitable creation of tons of software with no underlying value. The software us undervalued compared to what it costs to produce, but overvalued in terms of what it's worth to users.
jeroenhd 3y ago
Stability updates to deal with API changes, perhaps. New features like widgets? I'm not so sure. I've paid for an MP3 player app six years ago and the APK still works fine, although the UI looks a bit wonky on a phone screen four times the size of what I had back in the day. I don't expect anything more than an update in case MP3 playback somehow breaks. Maybe this is different in recent years, with iOS putting the burden of backwards compatibility more with the developers and Google now following suit in their attempts to add decent privacy restrictions to a previously unrestricted API, but I think consumers don't expect all that much from one-time purchases. You'll lose market share if you don't add new features, as well as new customers if your app is falling behind others, but that's a separate problem. On the other hand, the moment you ask just a single euro per year as a subscription, people expect to be up to date all the time. After all, you're still charging them even, so why wouldn't the app ever improve? Everyone knows a software business does better with recurring revenue instead of single purchases, but customer expectations are also higher if they're still paying you five years down the line.
yetihehe 3y ago
I've bought a game recently. It's pretty nice, but it has one problem - a big multiplayer universe which requires some servers to keep up, but the game is not subscription based. The result - quotas on the one small server cluster, so every evening there are constant "Blue Cobra" or "Taupe Python" or similar errors which are just "we don't have enough money for more servers, don't like it don't play, we have your money already".
ant6n 3y ago
The prices are usually set mich higher tho. That app that costs 5$, for which the user perhaps expects an update 5 years later won’t move to a subscription model for 1$ per year, but probably 1$ per month. Over 5 years that’ll be a tenfold increase.
RhysU 3y ago
> Software is undervalued The best indicator of the value of a thing is the price at which free parties trade it.
M95D 3y ago
And yet, Total Commander is selling since 1993 (Windows Commander back then) and is still updated today.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content I never left. I'm only paying for software and games. IP owned by big music and movie studios is free game since they're scummy with their licensing.

AwaAwa 3y ago
If you are talking about being scummy as the root reason, shouldn't the plethora of AAA games released in a beta state count? Add in the DLCs and possible subscriptions for "features".

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

>I'm very close to returning to the high seas for content... Made the jump back a few weeks ago. Incidentally the Intel N100 processor NUCs make a great <$250 Jellyfin server

bambax 3y ago
I went the Asustor route and am very happy so far. It's a general filer, backup machine, and Jellyfin server. There are two problems with subscription services that your own server solves: 1. Shows you like suddenly disappear for no reason (as in GP) 2. They contain a huge amount of things you don't care for, that you can never truly filter out no matter how hard you try. Your own media server contains all (or most of) the shows you like, and only those.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  `2.` is a big one. I want to be able to filter out crap I'm not interested in. I want to be able to set something as watched that I've already watched outside of your particular service. I want to be able to set something as unwatched because I'm going to do a re-run. I want to be able to set individual episodes as unwatched because I fell asleep with it on and want to actually watch it (maybe a few days down the line). I really want control over the library. The current model of most (all?) streaming services is just something I don't want to deal with.
  - bambax 3y ago
    Yes, and you can do all of this (and more) on Jellyfin.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      I know. On Plex as well. I want to like Jellyfin. I've been running it in parallel with Plex for at least 3 or 4 years. It doesn't work well most of the time for me though - mostly client-side issues like bad rendering, issues with subtitles, videos hanging during seek, many others... I could live with some of the issues I've found but every time I hop on JF I run back to Plex. As much as I hate some things Plex have been doing and the lack of troubleshootability when things go wrong, it mostly works most of the time. JF mostly doesn't work most of the time (again, for me - it seems it's excellent for a lot of people!).

sschueller 3y ago

If buying isn't owning then piracy isn't stealing...

eth0up 3y ago
Nope. Just authorized/unauthorized access, from an arbitrary system POV. No worries though; hell will be fully authorized for those who can't afford purgatory.