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I agree with you about having annoyance with the phrase especially in the use of divisive topics. I disagree in that, I don't think this is a divisive topic. I

I agree with you about having annoyance with the phrase especially in the use of divisive topics. I disagree in that, I don't think this is a divisive topic. I have not heard of a valid critique for school start times should be later aside from schools being a daycare supplement for working parents. But that's not science, its politics/economics. "The science" is, in my experience, very clear that young people should be allowed to wake-up later in the day to better conform with their natural sleep cycles.

bitwize 3y ago
Well, the solution to that is to assess whether work starts too early in the morning. Me, I do all my best work in the afternoon/evening.
scythe 3y ago
This can probably be addressed in itself by separating "aftercare" into an hour in the morning of "beforecare" in cases where parents really need to drop their kids off early. It's far from convenient for parents to pick their kids up at 3:30 PM, especially after waiting in a long line of cars, so we already have buffer times for that. For a personal perspective, when I was in high school, if I had needed to take the bus, I would have had to get on it before 6 AM, since I was at the beginning of the route (first or second stop, IIRC). Luckily, some family friends had a daughter who was an upperclassman at the same school, and she drove me. I would guess there are few parents well-served by their teenagers getting up at five in the morning.
- cardiffspaceman 3y ago
  It also depends on how far the parents have to commute. I grew up in the LA area and my parents both worked in downtown LA. Getting up at 5 am was the routine for my parents.
thegrim33 3y ago
I'm having a hard time putting this into words but your viewpoint really feels like, to phrase it as a software engineering analogy, a new developer that comes into a 20 year old project, looks at what currently exists, calls it all trash, says the people that came before you were dumb and didn't know what they were doing, and you just start rewriting all the code. Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then, or just picked start times at random? Do you really think you know better than all those states and people? Did the science change since then? Did the reasons to start school early/late change since then? Maybe they did. But if they did, you could maybe elaborate on that rather than just saying "the science is so clear" and dictating the way things should be.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then I don't really disagree with your point, but... Have you looked at the overall quality of the decisions those people made? They were not stupid, but the overall amount of real information they dealt with was ridiculously low. And the overall amount of fake information they dealt with was ridiculous high. The odds of any random choice they made being a good one aren't very high.
- ttymck 3y ago
  > Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then Yes. Why do you believe otherwise? > or just picked start times at random No, they chose based on when they needed daycare to start, because the workday was starting. Or, because the children needed to be available to work the fields during certain hours. Things have changed. > Do you really think you know better than all those states and people Yes. > Did the science change since then Yes. > you could maybe elaborate on that rather than just saying "the science is so clear" Does every discussion need to re-articulate the accumulated evidence? Can't there be some assumption of informed debate? https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.h...
- em-bee 3y ago
  that assumes that science had a factor at all in deciding when school should start. let's look back at the 1800s when school became commonplace. at that time science decided what was the best time to get up and milk the cows. and how to make the most of the available daylight. work and school had to fit into that schedule. so in a way science was used to decide school times indirectly. what is important is to consider that school has not changed since then. however in the meantime new research suggests that we should rethink schools, and so here we are questioning whether current school starting times are still adequate. this is not saying that in the past people were stupid or picked the times at random, only that the factors that led to those choices have changed.
- LaffertyDev 3y ago
s1artibartfast 3y ago
>“The science" is, in my experience, very clear that young people should be allowed to wake-up later in the day to better conform with their natural sleep cycles. That already crosses into politics. Science can answer if-then statements. Once you start using the word "should", you are talking about morality, preference, and tradeoffs.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  > That already crosses into politics. Science can answer if-then statements. In that case, I will also cross over into politics by expressing the opinion that answers to if-then statements should, when they are available, be taken into account in political decision-making.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    That is correct. They should be taken Into account. However, Politics is the process of weighing the against cost and tradeoffs. Science can say if later sleep is better for learning. It can't tell you about f better learning is worth it
    - jwestbury 3y ago
      > It can't tell you about f better learning is worth it It can, given sufficient inputs in terms of desired outcomes. Of course, desired outcomes are where subjectivity enters into things. :)
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        The process of comparing and weighing inputs is making policy, not science. You can try to reduce policy making to some weighted equations, but that doesn't make it science. Science doesn't encompass all logic and mathematics.
    - mannykannot 3y ago
      To avoid being diverted by broad generalities, let's note that with regard to this specific issue, the political decision-making progress will be sub-optimal if it does not take into account the existence of objective evidence concerning the effect of students' circadian rhythms on their ability to satisfy the politically-chosen, yet still objective, goals of education policy.

bitwize 3y ago

Well, the solution to that is to assess whether work starts too early in the morning. Me, I do all my best work in the afternoon/evening.

scythe 3y ago

This can probably be addressed in itself by separating "aftercare" into an hour in the morning of "beforecare" in cases where parents really need to drop their kids off early. It's far from convenient for parents to pick their kids up at 3:30 PM, especially after waiting in a long line of cars, so we already have buffer times for that. For a personal perspective, when I was in high school, if I had needed to take the bus, I would have had to get on it before 6 AM, since I was at the beginning of the route (first or second stop, IIRC). Luckily, some family friends had a daughter who was an upperclassman at the same school, and she drove me. I would guess there are few parents well-served by their teenagers getting up at five in the morning.

cardiffspaceman 3y ago
It also depends on how far the parents have to commute. I grew up in the LA area and my parents both worked in downtown LA. Getting up at 5 am was the routine for my parents.

thegrim33 3y ago

I'm having a hard time putting this into words but your viewpoint really feels like, to phrase it as a software engineering analogy, a new developer that comes into a 20 year old project, looks at what currently exists, calls it all trash, says the people that came before you were dumb and didn't know what they were doing, and you just start rewriting all the code. Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then, or just picked start times at random? Do you really think you know better than all those states and people? Did the science change since then? Did the reasons to start school early/late change since then? Maybe they did. But if they did, you could maybe elaborate on that rather than just saying "the science is so clear" and dictating the way things should be.

marcosdumay 3y ago
> Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then I don't really disagree with your point, but... Have you looked at the overall quality of the decisions those people made? They were not stupid, but the overall amount of real information they dealt with was ridiculously low. And the overall amount of fake information they dealt with was ridiculous high. The odds of any random choice they made being a good one aren't very high.
ttymck 3y ago
> Do you really think all the states and people that decided these things in the past were all stupid, or not following "the science" back then Yes. Why do you believe otherwise? > or just picked start times at random No, they chose based on when they needed daycare to start, because the workday was starting. Or, because the children needed to be available to work the fields during certain hours. Things have changed. > Do you really think you know better than all those states and people Yes. > Did the science change since then Yes. > you could maybe elaborate on that rather than just saying "the science is so clear" Does every discussion need to re-articulate the accumulated evidence? Can't there be some assumption of informed debate? https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.h...
em-bee 3y ago
that assumes that science had a factor at all in deciding when school should start. let's look back at the 1800s when school became commonplace. at that time science decided what was the best time to get up and milk the cows. and how to make the most of the available daylight. work and school had to fit into that schedule. so in a way science was used to decide school times indirectly. what is important is to consider that school has not changed since then. however in the meantime new research suggests that we should rethink schools, and so here we are questioning whether current school starting times are still adequate. this is not saying that in the past people were stupid or picked the times at random, only that the factors that led to those choices have changed.
LaffertyDev 3y ago

s1artibartfast 3y ago

>“The science" is, in my experience, very clear that young people should be allowed to wake-up later in the day to better conform with their natural sleep cycles. That already crosses into politics. Science can answer if-then statements. Once you start using the word "should", you are talking about morality, preference, and tradeoffs.

mannykannot 3y ago
> That already crosses into politics. Science can answer if-then statements. In that case, I will also cross over into politics by expressing the opinion that answers to if-then statements should, when they are available, be taken into account in political decision-making.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  That is correct. They should be taken Into account. However, Politics is the process of weighing the against cost and tradeoffs. Science can say if later sleep is better for learning. It can't tell you about f better learning is worth it
  - jwestbury 3y ago
    > It can't tell you about f better learning is worth it It can, given sufficient inputs in terms of desired outcomes. Of course, desired outcomes are where subjectivity enters into things. :)
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      The process of comparing and weighing inputs is making policy, not science. You can try to reduce policy making to some weighted equations, but that doesn't make it science. Science doesn't encompass all logic and mathematics.
  - mannykannot 3y ago
    To avoid being diverted by broad generalities, let's note that with regard to this specific issue, the political decision-making progress will be sub-optimal if it does not take into account the existence of objective evidence concerning the effect of students' circadian rhythms on their ability to satisfy the politically-chosen, yet still objective, goals of education policy.