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I want an EV to be more reliable and save me more money in the long run. EVs start out ~10k more than the Corolla most people should buying. They then compromis

I want an EV to be more reliable and save me more money in the long run. EVs start out ~10k more than the Corolla most people should buying. They then compromise the long term reliability and maintenance cost with high tech gee whiz features. I’d sooner have manual roll up windows than touch screen controlled air vents. When you integrate sensors and software controls into every little thing, we know those things will start failing and your intricate and overly proprietary systems will be expensive to repair. Their marketing says the electric motor will run longer, but a Toyota is already dead reliable for 300k miles and the bits in the cabin will last without repairs too. ICE cars are so reliable I don’t think anyone in my extended family has spent over $1k fixing them in any single year, with most years just the cost of an oil change.

avgDev 3y ago
That is one of the issues for me. Plus, the only viable EV now for me is Tesla, but they keep making silly decisions and are just an odd automaker. By silly decisions I mean things like removal of turn signal stalk, removal of parking sensors, lack of a gauge in field of view(y, 3), etc. I love ability to buy online. I hate the lack of an online parts catalog where I can purchase OEM parts. This is a big issue for me. I have enough experience to do anything on ICE car myself, engine rebuild included. The cost of a replacement battery is astronomical. I can replace an engine in an ICE vehicle for $2k. It also appears that Tesla is more expensive to insure.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  The batteries have an 8 year warranty, by which point it will be cheaper to replace them. You probably won’t have to since NMC batteries will last 1,000 cycles x 200 miles = 200,000 miles. LFP batteries will be 3x that. Edit: not sure why this is attracting downvotes Here is proof of the 8 year warranty: > 8 years or 100,000 miles ( Note: I chose to quote the lowest mileage to avoid controversy ) https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty Here is NMC vs LFP: > A key advantage of LFP is its longer life cycle, resulting in less degradation concerns. LFP packs are capable of more than 3000 full recharge cycle counts compared to NMC at around 1000 to 2000 cycles. https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-in-electric-cars https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-i...
  - avgDev 3y ago
    What makes you think it will be cheaper to replace them? Tesla recently increased prices on batteries.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      > Electric vehicle battery prices are falling faster than expected > Goldman Sachs Research now expects battery prices to fall to $99 per kilowatt hour (kWh) of storage capacity by 2025 — a 40% decrease from 2022 (the previous forecast was for a 33% decline). https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling.html https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-veh...
      - weaksauce 3y ago
        just how cheap do you expect that to get to? right now a model s has a 90kwh battery... that's almost 9 grand to replace in 2025. there will be a floor to this and i don't think it's going to be that cheap. gm et. al. are looking into 200kwh batteries reasonably soon. that's almost 20 grand to replace or the cost of a small ICE car.
        zamfi 3y ago
        The smart money expects a Moore’s Law kind of curve here for quite some time going forward, given the economies of scale and powerful incentives. There will be more variability than with Moore’s Law because the raw materials are more expensive, it’s not just about building a fab and then amortizing over billions of parts. Expect a rough annual decrease of 5-15% in $/kWh for some time. We continue to find new chemistries and electrod materials that bring prices down. Will there eventually be a floor? Yes, for sure. But we’re not there yet.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        phpisthebest 3y ago
- ohfoydoyd 3y ago
  why is tesla the only viable option?
  - brightball 3y ago
    I’ve test driven most of the competition. They are all much more expensive for a subpar product from what I’ve seen. IMO the plugin hyrbid market is a much more natural transition and some of those vehicles are becoming very good. The Chrysler Pacifica plug-in minivan is excellent for the price and the BMW X5 plugins are by far the best luxury plugin SUVs that I’ve seen. You can get good deals on used Pacifica plugins too. Typically in the $20k range. But we still need a good EV option that is close to $20k brand new.
    - ohfoydoyd 3y ago
      I'm not sure I agree with your first statement. At the low end I would take a Hyundai Ioniq any day over a model 3, and they're comparably priced. At the high end, I'll concede things are a bit more expensive, but I'll take the barely used Taycan Turbo I got for 70k any day over a new Model S.
      - brightball 3y ago
        I should have included the Ioniq in the list. It was right up there.
      - natch 3y ago
        No supercharger network. That made Ioniq dead in the water for us. Not to mention lack of good life changing features we rely on in our Teslas. If you only drive local, ever, then the Ioniq could work… but why would you get one? And now that the Model Y price has dropped so much, you should be comparing the features of the no-haggle straight priced Model Y to the features and charger network of the dealer-marked-up Ioniq, not comparing to the Model 3. Barely used Taycan… lol I wonder why they gave it up? Could it be the poor efficiency? Or that a Model S Plaid is quicker and costs less? Or again the charger network has a small existential issue.
- stjohnswarts 3y ago
  Tesla is the only one I'll buy until any car can use the tesla charger network, others simply aren't very well kept up.
  - 2rsf 3y ago
    Many cars can use the Tesla network now, and you are probably biased to your geographical area. In Stockholm (Sweden) for example the Tesla chargers are located far away from the city center, while there are many third party chargers available anywhere.
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      In the US, this isn't the case yet. Other makes won't get access to all V3+ superchargers until later this year. Supposedly, Ford will get it next month.
  - Account_Removed 3y ago
    If access to the supercharger network is the only factor for you, then it may be good choice. When quality or safety are also factors, then the choice is not obvious. How much will Tesla charge you for repairs over the lifetime of the vehicle. How bigger is the chance that you kill or injure your family due to quality issues. Please have a look at the Reuters Investigation below for context. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu...
- moepstar 3y ago
  > I hate the lack of an online parts catalog where I can purchase OEM parts. This is a big issue for me. I have enough experience to do anything on ICE car myself, engine rebuild included. It seems you're not aware that not only the parts catalog is available online for basically everyone [1] but also their repair guides / service manuals [2]? None cost anything to access, [2] is a free subscription and only costs something if you need their software ("Toolbox") which you can book for a certain time. [1] https://epc.tesla.com/ https://epc.tesla.com/ [2] https://service.tesla.com/service-manuals https://service.tesla.com/service-manuals
  - avgDev 3y ago
    I am well aware of the parts catalog. I was specific about being able to see pricing. For me this smells like a dark pattern. Tesla gets you in the car at a reasonable price point but why can't they show part prices online? Or even better sell them online? They are a tech company. Right now, I can tell you the cost of a part for literally any main stream car with just a simple search. I can tell if the parts in stock or if they are out of stock how quickly I can expect to get them. Why can't tesla do this, if legacy automakers have been doing this for years?
- agloe_dreams 3y ago
  I don't actually mind the center screen on mine - it is actually fine and there is no 'wheel overlaps gauge cluster' issue. I also like the 'air directly hits my face though the wheel factor' That said, I'm weirder than most about airflow. The auto wipers suck, there is no dance around it. My issue is that the silly choices seem to be rapidly worsening. My 2018 model 3 has fantastic parking sensors. The new cars without them will conveniently tell you to stop when the wall is currently sitting on the hood of the car after you hit it. It is a dumb choice that doesn't work. No turn stalk is just why most drivers don't use signals anymore...which sucks. No drive stalk means confusion about drive direction and if the throttle is armed. I ALREADY have this issue in my model 3, it is incredibly easy to end up going the wrong directly rapidly. The lack of creep means that a model 3 in autohold is easy to confuse for a car in park. They really need to make the P icon bigger. No online catalog sucks, though I think with volume, that will happen via a third party. A big issue is the fact they they did agile changes to cars in a single model year so it is hard to know which part you need in some cases. Battery - eh. For a comparable ICE vehicle - my old Volvo XC40 - A motor replacement is not massively far off from a battery, easily close to $10K. I hope that solid state batteries make huge jumps. My tesla was $30/mo more to insure than the XC40 - that is material. I do save more than $30/mo on gas though, but the Xc40 was a 25mpg premium gas car so that is exceptional.
Ekaros 3y ago
Or I could get Kia with 7 year 150 Mm warranty. For even cheaper than the Toyota... Not ofc, covering everything, but enough... That is lot to save on fuel and maintenance... Which I would estimate to be around 500 a year for maintenance...
- onlyhumans 3y ago
  Kia’s also get stolen and broken into because how easy they are to steal
  - oblio 3y ago
    Didn't they fix that?
    - avidiax 3y ago
      Yes. Even the older cars have a software patch to tie engine start to the keyless entry.
      - jewayne 3y ago
        And yet the 14 year-olds in my city keep stealing them every day. I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about the fix for older cars.
        avidiax 3y ago
        You are correct. Some models couldn't get the software update, so now they are getting a more secure ignition cylinder. https://www.cars.com/articles/kia-introduces-free-anti-theft-device-for-vehicles-ineligible-for-software-update-476237/ https://www.cars.com/articles/kia-introduces-free-anti-theft...
teaearlgraycold 3y ago
The new Prius prime finally has EV range comparable to the Volt. That should be most people’s sedan pick if they aren’t looking for a budget option.
- whateveracct 3y ago
  Prius Prime is my pick for a next car whenever my late 2000s Civic goes kaput. But that might be a while :)
- LUmBULtERA 3y ago
  Unfortunately they're hard to find in stock and without a mark up. There's probably some 2+ hours away from here, but I wish there was at least one nearby to test drive first before committing to a 4+ hour drive...
brightball 3y ago
I bought a used Model 3 for a little under 40k with a payment of about $500 / month. I was previously spending $500 / month in gas. The vehicle is literally paying for itself based on my usage. Now, if you’re driving less the math may not work out but the cost of fuel alone has to factor into those annual maintenance costs.
- robotresearcher 3y ago
  How are you charging it for free? At the office? My car insurance is very much higher for a Model 3 than a similarly priced car because repairs are more expensive. This should be added to the TCO. I like the Model 3 still, because it’s a fun car to drive. It’s not cheap though.
  - brightball 3y ago
    Charge at the house. I haven’t done the math recently but when I had a Chevy Volt the electricity cost was equivalent to about $0.64 / gallon of gas. It is fun to drive though.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Let's hear the electric bill before/after new car.
      - bdcravens 3y ago
        Both my wife and I charge at home. We're probably spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $50-80 or so a month in charging versus the $200 or so we'd spend on gas (Texas has relatively cheap electricity rates, but our gas is also fairly cheap)
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        I'd rather just see the kwh usage. Rates vary wildly in the US, even within the same state. Some states with average prices have utilities with cheap power. And others with overall low rates have dumb utilities that charge high rates if you use more than 1000kwh, which most EV owners certainly do.
iknowstuff 3y ago
Total Cost of Ownership is already significantly lower than a Corolla's so idk what's stopping you buddy. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla-model-3-5-year-cost-comparison/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla...
- ac29 3y ago
  Their most expensive electricity scenario is 20c/kWh. Maybe that was realistic when the article was written 5 years ago, but electricity is definitely more expensive than that in California now, even with a special EV rate plan.
  - 0x00000000 3y ago
    Mine is over $0.60/kWh in Silicon Valley ironically making most gas cars cheaper per mile.
    - the_sleaze9 3y ago
      Truthfully, if electricity is getting that expensive in your area, your very first move should be to put some solar panels on your roof not buying a new car. Not always an option for all people but that's what I'd be doing in that situation.
    - nkingsy 3y ago
      Yep, make sure to install a $50k solar system in your 3 million dollar SFH, then they’re super cost effective, and for everyone!! I’d say my used 2016 X with free supercharging was a good deal but in the year I’ve owned it I spent $2k on repairs for things like the drivers window falling down and the f**ing wing door failing to register as locked and beeping incessantly while driving. That’s not to mention the horrible ride quality, 10k depreciation and the $3k aftermarket fix for halfshaft and tire wear problems. But at least I can fry the battery for free.
TIPSIO 3y ago
I kind of agree actually on your cost points. It’s still a luxury purchase. I am a bit more conservative of a saver but feel priced out and sadly went ICE. If you qualify for the EV tax credit, I would argue the car is too expensive for your budget. If you don’t qualify barely, a brand new ICE vehicle is going to last years and be cheaper. Is it really worth it to push budget? If you way don’t qualify, definitely buying an EV. Also congrats on your income.
- lukas099 3y ago
  I thought hybrids were the cost-conscious choice currently?
  - TIPSIO 3y ago
    Super expensive.
    - lukas099 3y ago
      I remembered where I got the idea: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/why-hybrid-vehicles-are-a-smart-choice-right-now-a2736240282/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/why-hybrid-... > Hybrid technology has generally meant comparatively higher sticker prices, though fuel savings can defray costs over time. Today’s average hybrid costs about $1,700 more, but the Ford Maverick pickup and Lexus NX SUV hybrids actually have lower sticker prices than gas-only versions. The new Lexus RX Hybrid costs the same as a comparably equipped non-hybrid. > In 2015 CR calculated that most hybrids took eight years to pay for themselves through fuel savings, with some, including the 2015 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid and Lexus RX450h, taking more than a decade. Today, improved technology and higher gas prices mean the average payback is four years with gas at $3.35 a gallon and 12,000 miles driven a year. At $3 a gallon, the payback period increases to five years. The more miles driven, the quicker the payback. > You may also save money on repairs and maintenance. Case in point: The Prius is often in the top spot in our reliability surveys. A hybrid’s regenerative brakes create less wear and tear, so braking components can last longer, too. It’s true that replacing a hybrid battery can be a big expense, costing on average around $7,400, according to RepairPal, but our surveys show such replacements are rare. “Hybrid technology has been very reliable in our studies,” Fisher says. $1,700 more doesn't seem like that much, and 12,000 miles per year is not a high bar to clear.
patryn20 3y ago
Seriously. Just give me a NORMAL car with a modern electric drivetrain and I’ll be happy. I have my 4Runner for longer trips and “electric grid down because Texas is a 3rd world island in a 1st world country” situations. These electric cars are going for full gimmickry and just look like a giant long term ownership nightmare. Built to be disposable status symbols for your average American trying to appear wealthier than they are instead of practical vehicles for the mass market.
- epistasis 3y ago
  One minor comment, but if the electric grid is down, then it's likely you won't be able to pump gas either. At least, most gas stations have not planned to be functional without electricity.
  - patryn20 3y ago
    Yeah. But I can still fill an ICE car manually with a can or hand pump. Also hurricane evacuation with mass electric adoption is going to be an interesting situation to observe. It may be better than with an ICE. We’ll see.
    - epistasis 3y ago
      Perhaps, but how many gas stations are going to let you pay cash and use a hand pump? And do you keep spare gas in cans ready, before the outage? I've never spent enough time in Texas to experience an outage, maybe Texas gas stations are far different than the rest of the US?
      - someuser2345 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure you can pay cash in most gas stations. You just have to pay to the clerk, instead of at the pump.
        epistasis 3y ago
NoGravitas 3y ago
While you are right on the whole about the gee whiz features, those are also an increasing problem in ICE cars.
toastercat 3y ago
100%. My S.O. wants my next car to be an electric, but I'm hesitant because my current car (an 05 Civic LX) has been running non-stop like a champ since the day I started driving it 17 years ago. I've been going to the same mechanic in all that time, and repair costs have always been low thanks in part to the OEM market, but also to the self-repairability of older Hondas. I dread the day I have to get a new car only to find out I can't self-repair the car as much as I do now.
xnx 3y ago
Definitely worth calling out how reliable and high quality modern ICE drivetrains are. I believe consumer reports found EVs to have a lower total cost of ownership after a few years: https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/new-analysis-from-cr-finds-that-the-most-popular-electric-vehicles-cost-less-to-own-than-the-best-selling-gas-powered-vehicles-in-their-class/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/new-analy... With thousands fewer parts, cheaper fuel, and the time savings of not having to go to a gas station, EVs have a lot of things working in their favor to make them cheaper to operate.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
agree with absolutely everything you said. I purchased my corrolla off the lot in 2004 and _chose_ to go with manual everything for because it's cheaper and more reliable. here we are 20 years on and that car is rock solid reliable with 168k miles and regular maintenance. I'm hoping to get another 20 years out of it. When I decided I needed a minivan I went out and bought a 2007 Honda Odyssey, put a few thousand dollars into it and it runs like a champ (has just under 190k miles on it). But the Odyssey has an ongoing problem I'm trying to figure out and rectify ... the power sliding doors. I'd honestly rather just open them manually. People love their convenience, but you know these vehicles with all their fancy whizbang features are going to be a maintenance burden during their lifetime. There's something to be said about simplicity.

avgDev 3y ago

That is one of the issues for me. Plus, the only viable EV now for me is Tesla, but they keep making silly decisions and are just an odd automaker. By silly decisions I mean things like removal of turn signal stalk, removal of parking sensors, lack of a gauge in field of view(y, 3), etc. I love ability to buy online. I hate the lack of an online parts catalog where I can purchase OEM parts. This is a big issue for me. I have enough experience to do anything on ICE car myself, engine rebuild included. The cost of a replacement battery is astronomical. I can replace an engine in an ICE vehicle for $2k. It also appears that Tesla is more expensive to insure.

thebruce87m 3y ago
The batteries have an 8 year warranty, by which point it will be cheaper to replace them. You probably won’t have to since NMC batteries will last 1,000 cycles x 200 miles = 200,000 miles. LFP batteries will be 3x that. Edit: not sure why this is attracting downvotes Here is proof of the 8 year warranty: > 8 years or 100,000 miles ( Note: I chose to quote the lowest mileage to avoid controversy ) https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty Here is NMC vs LFP: > A key advantage of LFP is its longer life cycle, resulting in less degradation concerns. LFP packs are capable of more than 3000 full recharge cycle counts compared to NMC at around 1000 to 2000 cycles. https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-in-electric-cars https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-i...
- avgDev 3y ago
  What makes you think it will be cheaper to replace them? Tesla recently increased prices on batteries.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    > Electric vehicle battery prices are falling faster than expected > Goldman Sachs Research now expects battery prices to fall to $99 per kilowatt hour (kWh) of storage capacity by 2025 — a 40% decrease from 2022 (the previous forecast was for a 33% decline). https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling.html https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-veh...
    - weaksauce 3y ago
      just how cheap do you expect that to get to? right now a model s has a 90kwh battery... that's almost 9 grand to replace in 2025. there will be a floor to this and i don't think it's going to be that cheap. gm et. al. are looking into 200kwh batteries reasonably soon. that's almost 20 grand to replace or the cost of a small ICE car.
      - zamfi 3y ago
        The smart money expects a Moore’s Law kind of curve here for quite some time going forward, given the economies of scale and powerful incentives. There will be more variability than with Moore’s Law because the raw materials are more expensive, it’s not just about building a fab and then amortizing over billions of parts. Expect a rough annual decrease of 5-15% in $/kWh for some time. We continue to find new chemistries and electrod materials that bring prices down. Will there eventually be a floor? Yes, for sure. But we’re not there yet.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        phpisthebest 3y ago
ohfoydoyd 3y ago
why is tesla the only viable option?
- brightball 3y ago
  I’ve test driven most of the competition. They are all much more expensive for a subpar product from what I’ve seen. IMO the plugin hyrbid market is a much more natural transition and some of those vehicles are becoming very good. The Chrysler Pacifica plug-in minivan is excellent for the price and the BMW X5 plugins are by far the best luxury plugin SUVs that I’ve seen. You can get good deals on used Pacifica plugins too. Typically in the $20k range. But we still need a good EV option that is close to $20k brand new.
  - ohfoydoyd 3y ago
    I'm not sure I agree with your first statement. At the low end I would take a Hyundai Ioniq any day over a model 3, and they're comparably priced. At the high end, I'll concede things are a bit more expensive, but I'll take the barely used Taycan Turbo I got for 70k any day over a new Model S.
    - brightball 3y ago
      I should have included the Ioniq in the list. It was right up there.
    - natch 3y ago
      No supercharger network. That made Ioniq dead in the water for us. Not to mention lack of good life changing features we rely on in our Teslas. If you only drive local, ever, then the Ioniq could work… but why would you get one? And now that the Model Y price has dropped so much, you should be comparing the features of the no-haggle straight priced Model Y to the features and charger network of the dealer-marked-up Ioniq, not comparing to the Model 3. Barely used Taycan… lol I wonder why they gave it up? Could it be the poor efficiency? Or that a Model S Plaid is quicker and costs less? Or again the charger network has a small existential issue.
stjohnswarts 3y ago
Tesla is the only one I'll buy until any car can use the tesla charger network, others simply aren't very well kept up.
- 2rsf 3y ago
  Many cars can use the Tesla network now, and you are probably biased to your geographical area. In Stockholm (Sweden) for example the Tesla chargers are located far away from the city center, while there are many third party chargers available anywhere.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    In the US, this isn't the case yet. Other makes won't get access to all V3+ superchargers until later this year. Supposedly, Ford will get it next month.
- Account_Removed 3y ago
  If access to the supercharger network is the only factor for you, then it may be good choice. When quality or safety are also factors, then the choice is not obvious. How much will Tesla charge you for repairs over the lifetime of the vehicle. How bigger is the chance that you kill or injure your family due to quality issues. Please have a look at the Reuters Investigation below for context. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu...
moepstar 3y ago
> I hate the lack of an online parts catalog where I can purchase OEM parts. This is a big issue for me. I have enough experience to do anything on ICE car myself, engine rebuild included. It seems you're not aware that not only the parts catalog is available online for basically everyone [1] but also their repair guides / service manuals [2]? None cost anything to access, [2] is a free subscription and only costs something if you need their software ("Toolbox") which you can book for a certain time. [1] https://epc.tesla.com/ https://epc.tesla.com/ [2] https://service.tesla.com/service-manuals https://service.tesla.com/service-manuals
- avgDev 3y ago
  I am well aware of the parts catalog. I was specific about being able to see pricing. For me this smells like a dark pattern. Tesla gets you in the car at a reasonable price point but why can't they show part prices online? Or even better sell them online? They are a tech company. Right now, I can tell you the cost of a part for literally any main stream car with just a simple search. I can tell if the parts in stock or if they are out of stock how quickly I can expect to get them. Why can't tesla do this, if legacy automakers have been doing this for years?
agloe_dreams 3y ago
I don't actually mind the center screen on mine - it is actually fine and there is no 'wheel overlaps gauge cluster' issue. I also like the 'air directly hits my face though the wheel factor' That said, I'm weirder than most about airflow. The auto wipers suck, there is no dance around it. My issue is that the silly choices seem to be rapidly worsening. My 2018 model 3 has fantastic parking sensors. The new cars without them will conveniently tell you to stop when the wall is currently sitting on the hood of the car after you hit it. It is a dumb choice that doesn't work. No turn stalk is just why most drivers don't use signals anymore...which sucks. No drive stalk means confusion about drive direction and if the throttle is armed. I ALREADY have this issue in my model 3, it is incredibly easy to end up going the wrong directly rapidly. The lack of creep means that a model 3 in autohold is easy to confuse for a car in park. They really need to make the P icon bigger. No online catalog sucks, though I think with volume, that will happen via a third party. A big issue is the fact they they did agile changes to cars in a single model year so it is hard to know which part you need in some cases. Battery - eh. For a comparable ICE vehicle - my old Volvo XC40 - A motor replacement is not massively far off from a battery, easily close to $10K. I hope that solid state batteries make huge jumps. My tesla was $30/mo more to insure than the XC40 - that is material. I do save more than $30/mo on gas though, but the Xc40 was a 25mpg premium gas car so that is exceptional.

Ekaros 3y ago

Or I could get Kia with 7 year 150 Mm warranty. For even cheaper than the Toyota... Not ofc, covering everything, but enough... That is lot to save on fuel and maintenance... Which I would estimate to be around 500 a year for maintenance...

onlyhumans 3y ago
Kia’s also get stolen and broken into because how easy they are to steal
- oblio 3y ago
  Didn't they fix that?
  - avidiax 3y ago
    Yes. Even the older cars have a software patch to tie engine start to the keyless entry.
    - jewayne 3y ago
      And yet the 14 year-olds in my city keep stealing them every day. I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about the fix for older cars.
      - avidiax 3y ago
        You are correct. Some models couldn't get the software update, so now they are getting a more secure ignition cylinder. https://www.cars.com/articles/kia-introduces-free-anti-theft-device-for-vehicles-ineligible-for-software-update-476237/ https://www.cars.com/articles/kia-introduces-free-anti-theft...

teaearlgraycold 3y ago

The new Prius prime finally has EV range comparable to the Volt. That should be most people’s sedan pick if they aren’t looking for a budget option.

whateveracct 3y ago
Prius Prime is my pick for a next car whenever my late 2000s Civic goes kaput. But that might be a while :)
LUmBULtERA 3y ago
Unfortunately they're hard to find in stock and without a mark up. There's probably some 2+ hours away from here, but I wish there was at least one nearby to test drive first before committing to a 4+ hour drive...

brightball 3y ago

I bought a used Model 3 for a little under 40k with a payment of about $500 / month. I was previously spending $500 / month in gas. The vehicle is literally paying for itself based on my usage. Now, if you’re driving less the math may not work out but the cost of fuel alone has to factor into those annual maintenance costs.

robotresearcher 3y ago
How are you charging it for free? At the office? My car insurance is very much higher for a Model 3 than a similarly priced car because repairs are more expensive. This should be added to the TCO. I like the Model 3 still, because it’s a fun car to drive. It’s not cheap though.
- brightball 3y ago
  Charge at the house. I haven’t done the math recently but when I had a Chevy Volt the electricity cost was equivalent to about $0.64 / gallon of gas. It is fun to drive though.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Let's hear the electric bill before/after new car.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Both my wife and I charge at home. We're probably spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $50-80 or so a month in charging versus the $200 or so we'd spend on gas (Texas has relatively cheap electricity rates, but our gas is also fairly cheap)
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      I'd rather just see the kwh usage. Rates vary wildly in the US, even within the same state. Some states with average prices have utilities with cheap power. And others with overall low rates have dumb utilities that charge high rates if you use more than 1000kwh, which most EV owners certainly do.

iknowstuff 3y ago

Total Cost of Ownership is already significantly lower than a Corolla's so idk what's stopping you buddy. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla-model-3-5-year-cost-comparison/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla...

ac29 3y ago
Their most expensive electricity scenario is 20c/kWh. Maybe that was realistic when the article was written 5 years ago, but electricity is definitely more expensive than that in California now, even with a special EV rate plan.
- 0x00000000 3y ago
  Mine is over $0.60/kWh in Silicon Valley ironically making most gas cars cheaper per mile.
  - the_sleaze9 3y ago
    Truthfully, if electricity is getting that expensive in your area, your very first move should be to put some solar panels on your roof not buying a new car. Not always an option for all people but that's what I'd be doing in that situation.
  - nkingsy 3y ago
    Yep, make sure to install a $50k solar system in your 3 million dollar SFH, then they’re super cost effective, and for everyone!! I’d say my used 2016 X with free supercharging was a good deal but in the year I’ve owned it I spent $2k on repairs for things like the drivers window falling down and the f**ing wing door failing to register as locked and beeping incessantly while driving. That’s not to mention the horrible ride quality, 10k depreciation and the $3k aftermarket fix for halfshaft and tire wear problems. But at least I can fry the battery for free.

TIPSIO 3y ago

I kind of agree actually on your cost points. It’s still a luxury purchase. I am a bit more conservative of a saver but feel priced out and sadly went ICE. If you qualify for the EV tax credit, I would argue the car is too expensive for your budget. If you don’t qualify barely, a brand new ICE vehicle is going to last years and be cheaper. Is it really worth it to push budget? If you way don’t qualify, definitely buying an EV. Also congrats on your income.

lukas099 3y ago
I thought hybrids were the cost-conscious choice currently?
- TIPSIO 3y ago
  Super expensive.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    I remembered where I got the idea: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/why-hybrid-vehicles-are-a-smart-choice-right-now-a2736240282/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/why-hybrid-... > Hybrid technology has generally meant comparatively higher sticker prices, though fuel savings can defray costs over time. Today’s average hybrid costs about $1,700 more, but the Ford Maverick pickup and Lexus NX SUV hybrids actually have lower sticker prices than gas-only versions. The new Lexus RX Hybrid costs the same as a comparably equipped non-hybrid. > In 2015 CR calculated that most hybrids took eight years to pay for themselves through fuel savings, with some, including the 2015 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid and Lexus RX450h, taking more than a decade. Today, improved technology and higher gas prices mean the average payback is four years with gas at $3.35 a gallon and 12,000 miles driven a year. At $3 a gallon, the payback period increases to five years. The more miles driven, the quicker the payback. > You may also save money on repairs and maintenance. Case in point: The Prius is often in the top spot in our reliability surveys. A hybrid’s regenerative brakes create less wear and tear, so braking components can last longer, too. It’s true that replacing a hybrid battery can be a big expense, costing on average around $7,400, according to RepairPal, but our surveys show such replacements are rare. “Hybrid technology has been very reliable in our studies,” Fisher says. $1,700 more doesn't seem like that much, and 12,000 miles per year is not a high bar to clear.

patryn20 3y ago

Seriously. Just give me a NORMAL car with a modern electric drivetrain and I’ll be happy. I have my 4Runner for longer trips and “electric grid down because Texas is a 3rd world island in a 1st world country” situations. These electric cars are going for full gimmickry and just look like a giant long term ownership nightmare. Built to be disposable status symbols for your average American trying to appear wealthier than they are instead of practical vehicles for the mass market.

epistasis 3y ago
One minor comment, but if the electric grid is down, then it's likely you won't be able to pump gas either. At least, most gas stations have not planned to be functional without electricity.
- patryn20 3y ago
  Yeah. But I can still fill an ICE car manually with a can or hand pump. Also hurricane evacuation with mass electric adoption is going to be an interesting situation to observe. It may be better than with an ICE. We’ll see.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Perhaps, but how many gas stations are going to let you pay cash and use a hand pump? And do you keep spare gas in cans ready, before the outage? I've never spent enough time in Texas to experience an outage, maybe Texas gas stations are far different than the rest of the US?
    - someuser2345 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure you can pay cash in most gas stations. You just have to pay to the clerk, instead of at the pump.
      - epistasis 3y ago

NoGravitas 3y ago

While you are right on the whole about the gee whiz features, those are also an increasing problem in ICE cars.

toastercat 3y ago

100%. My S.O. wants my next car to be an electric, but I'm hesitant because my current car (an 05 Civic LX) has been running non-stop like a champ since the day I started driving it 17 years ago. I've been going to the same mechanic in all that time, and repair costs have always been low thanks in part to the OEM market, but also to the self-repairability of older Hondas. I dread the day I have to get a new car only to find out I can't self-repair the car as much as I do now.

xnx 3y ago

Definitely worth calling out how reliable and high quality modern ICE drivetrains are. I believe consumer reports found EVs to have a lower total cost of ownership after a few years: https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/new-analysis-from-cr-finds-that-the-most-popular-electric-vehicles-cost-less-to-own-than-the-best-selling-gas-powered-vehicles-in-their-class/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/new-analy... With thousands fewer parts, cheaper fuel, and the time savings of not having to go to a gas station, EVs have a lot of things working in their favor to make them cheaper to operate.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago

agree with absolutely everything you said. I purchased my corrolla off the lot in 2004 and _chose_ to go with manual everything for because it's cheaper and more reliable. here we are 20 years on and that car is rock solid reliable with 168k miles and regular maintenance. I'm hoping to get another 20 years out of it. When I decided I needed a minivan I went out and bought a 2007 Honda Odyssey, put a few thousand dollars into it and it runs like a champ (has just under 190k miles on it). But the Odyssey has an ongoing problem I'm trying to figure out and rectify ... the power sliding doors. I'd honestly rather just open them manually. People love their convenience, but you know these vehicles with all their fancy whizbang features are going to be a maintenance burden during their lifetime. There's something to be said about simplicity.