6 ms·

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked just as well. (Not to say that Japanese culture is better, just that it happens to be very beneficial in this scenario.)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pletnes 3y ago
Counterexample https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549?wprov=s... Edit: interestingly, the evacuation took about the same time in total, but in a river, not on land.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Arguably looking out the window and realizing they were in the Hudson River might have lead them to realize they weren't going to be swimming with their wheelie.
  - peter422 3y ago
    The U.S. is a very punitive society and I think if you were to find yourself in the tarmac after an evacuation holding onto your carry on, you’d at minimum be getting a large fine for disobeying a flight attendant and possibly more. Not being in the Hudson isn’t going to change the fact that you are ending up in the middle of nowhere once you are off the plane.
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      There have been many instances of people deplaning from an engine-on-fire plane in US, with luggage. Spirit, Southwest, and some Caribbean airlines in recent 2-3 years at the very least.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Someone 3y ago
      In such situations, people won’t think about that. What I’ve read, the reason people taking their carry-on at least partly is because, when having to get out of a plane in a stressful situation, they won’t think “what shall I do now.”, but just activate their “deboard plane” program, and that involves getting their bags before getting out of the plane.
    - anticensor 3y ago
      Then, the planes should be fitted with pilot-commanded overhead baggage locks.
      - steveBK123 3y ago
        The scenarios in which you want to lock the bins is precisely the scenarios where the locks are likely to fail - crashes. It's already been reported JAL plane damage was bad enough that intercoms didn't work. Can't lock them for the full flight, at most you can lock them during first/last 30min ascent/descent. But even there, many incidents begin in the air and precipitate an emergency landing. We will then add another item for the checklist (lock the bins) while they are supposed to be focussed on keeping the plane in the air and safely landing it? So needless cost & complexity that will have maintenance costs, inconvenience costs.. and then have a high probability of failure in the one case it was designed for anyway. Many problems are people problems and technology can't solve people.
- lbwtaylor 3y ago
  With roughly half the number of passengers.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    And twice as many working exits.
quasse 3y ago
Aeroflot Flight 1492 is a perfect example of this. Passengers were actively working to get carry-on bags down the emergency slide as 41 people were burning to death in the back of the plane.
- golergka 3y ago
  Russians are the very extreme example — we're much more individualistic and self-centered than Dutch, English, or Americans.
- ImAnAmateur 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_1492 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_1492 https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/analysis-superjet-fire-puts-focus-on-evacuation-threat/132614.article https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/analysis-superjet-fire... Made for interesting reading. I think that it's possible that one more life could have been saved without those carry-on bags. That's a responsibility the passangers and crew both share.
  - tim333 3y ago
    The Russians seem to have an unusual attitude to human life, currently illustrated by the tens of thousands being killed in Ukraine for no particularly good reason. The reaction seems to be >Putin urges Russian women to have ‘eight or more’ children... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-women-eight-children-ukraine-war-b2455957.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-put... rather than avoiding it all by going home and having a cup of tea or some such.
- AndrewThrowaway 3y ago
  These must be two extremes of cultures. Russian and Japanese must be the very opposites in almost every way.
sho_hn 3y ago
I think that's reductive orientalism.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  I don't know. I've lived in both the Netherlands and Japan, and studied the culture (and language) of the latter. In my experience, groups of Japanese people defer to authority in the case of an emergency with a minimum of fuss, where a group of Dutch would show much more hesitation, scepticism, and sometimes outright hostility in a similar situation. You're welcome to call that reductive occidentalism. As a group people from those cultures behave totally differently. I'm not judging either culture with this observation (although I can be quite critical about some aspects of both); it's a simple observable fact.
JoshTko 3y ago
Curious how high this was upvoted with no evidence. Would imply unconscious bias within HN readership of Japanese as obedient.
trebligdivad 3y ago
Flames shooting up around the plane after a collision have got to focus the mind of the passengers; so I guess it's hard to compare different incidents.
- BeefDinnerPurge 3y ago
  If they're close to the exit, it's clearly someone else's problem for those that aren't in our culture. If only they'd invested in their personal safety they wouldn't be burning to death and how else will they learn?
laweijfmvo 3y ago
Maybe this is a good time for me to vent about exit row seating? I was recently on a holiday flight where an older couple walked very delicately up to the gate. When prompted, "are you able and willing to assist in the event of an emergency?" the lady immediately said "oh no, we can't..." and the guy says "well, there won't be an emergency, right?" To her credit, the crew member checking us in very sternly told him that his attitude was completely unacceptable and that their seats would be moved. But it made me think: realistically, the only people sitting in exit rows should be reasonably fit 18-45 year olds in most cases (and I'd prefer men). Yet it's usually whoever has the most money/points/status to get the extra leg room. /end rant
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- BeefDinnerPurge 3y ago
  s/18-45 year olds// s/(and I'd prefer men)// Otherwise I agree. I have no problem with Stallone or Schwarzenegger in the exit rows. But realistically, they fly private jets or in first class. Edit: Ageism and sexism are good, anti-ageism and feminism are bad! That effective accelerationist mindset has no room for the womenfolk or the senile!
- LouisSayers 3y ago
  > fit 18-45 year olds in most cases Anecdotally, I believe many airlines do this - it's happened to me a few times during check in where they've asked if I'd be OK with the emergency seat.
- AndrewThrowaway 3y ago
  Is this US or EU or somewhere else? I have some experience in Europe. I (male early thirties then) once was sat in an exit row (replaced with some other passenger) when flying EasyJet. As I understood then only because I seemed to be more fit to sit there. Once travelling with Ryanair stewardess exclaimed that "oh no you will be sitting with a baby in an exit row". We said "no no we are sitting the row behind". She said "thanks god I thought I will need to rearrange passengers". Of course a baby in an exit row MUST be a big no no anywhere. So I have a feeling that it is being looked quite seriously.
oliv__ 3y ago
18 minutes seems like a hell of a long time to get out of a damn burning plane I've never been to Japan but in the US people are standing and ready to exit as soon as the plane docks to the airport so I can imagine people running for their lives in this scenario. 5 minutes at most would seem more understandable
- Someone 3y ago
  People running for their lives likely will increase the time to get everybody out. Two people might try to get out of an exit door simultaneously, or someone might push over another passenger to get to the exit door, making those behind them trip over the fallen passenger, etc.
mihemihe 3y ago
It comes to my mind the same scenario in Dubai. In the video you can see people leaving the plane with their luggage. https://youtu.be/PyNVUXVhnAw https://youtu.be/PyNVUXVhnAw https://youtu.be/OvNT78ICJlg https://youtu.be/OvNT78ICJlg
rawgabbit 3y ago
I was going to say the same thing. This is the positive aspect of Japanese/East Asian culture. They give authority figures the benefit of the doubt and will listen to instructions. Of course, this obedience to authority has a downside. In South Korea, when the Sewol ferry sank, the crew instructed the passengers to stay inside their rooms while they drank beer and abandoned ship. Many of the obedient passengers drowned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
snakeyjake 3y ago
British Airways flight 2276, 170 passengers and crew. 2 minutes 32 seconds. >All occupants, including one lap child, and the flight and cabin crewmembers evacuated the airplane through the 1L, 1R, or 4L door slides. (The flight attendants estimated that only five passengers evacuated using the 1L door slide, which was subsequently blocked due to fire.) The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) obtained videos that showed that the evacuation was completed about 2 minutes 32 seconds after the captain's initial command to evacuate. https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/4367.pdf https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/4367.pdf TWA Flight 843, 292 passengers and crew. "Less than two minutes" >All of the flight attendants stated that the evacuation was completed in less than 2 minutes. https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR93-04.pdf https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraf... Every time I read a comment about JaPaNeSe CuLtUrE I throw up in my mouth a little because was stationed in Japan for a total of three years and their culture is just as fucked as everyone else's... just in different ways.
jase321 3y ago
I have taken countless Delta and UA flights. I can attest 100%, had this scenarios happened on those flights, near death certainty for those passengers. 90sec from my years of observations not doable by ANY Delta or UA flights unless maybe small 737 with maybe a third full. Their crews and the type of passengers they have guarantee death in this kind of situation. Heck even if you give them 10 mins instead of 90sec, they still will not make it all out.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > Their crews...guarantee death in this kind of situation I was recently on a UA flight where, maybe 15 seconds after takeoff, a flight attendant rushed out of her jumpseat to try to shield a passenger from a bag from an overhead bin that had just popped open. n=1, but when it comes down to it in an emergency situation, I bet the flight crew takes their responsibilities very seriously.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pletnes 3y ago

Counterexample https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549?wprov=s... Edit: interestingly, the evacuation took about the same time in total, but in a river, not on land.

steveBK123 3y ago
Arguably looking out the window and realizing they were in the Hudson River might have lead them to realize they weren't going to be swimming with their wheelie.
- peter422 3y ago
  The U.S. is a very punitive society and I think if you were to find yourself in the tarmac after an evacuation holding onto your carry on, you’d at minimum be getting a large fine for disobeying a flight attendant and possibly more. Not being in the Hudson isn’t going to change the fact that you are ending up in the middle of nowhere once you are off the plane.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    There have been many instances of people deplaning from an engine-on-fire plane in US, with luggage. Spirit, Southwest, and some Caribbean airlines in recent 2-3 years at the very least.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Someone 3y ago
    In such situations, people won’t think about that. What I’ve read, the reason people taking their carry-on at least partly is because, when having to get out of a plane in a stressful situation, they won’t think “what shall I do now.”, but just activate their “deboard plane” program, and that involves getting their bags before getting out of the plane.
  - anticensor 3y ago
    Then, the planes should be fitted with pilot-commanded overhead baggage locks.
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      The scenarios in which you want to lock the bins is precisely the scenarios where the locks are likely to fail - crashes. It's already been reported JAL plane damage was bad enough that intercoms didn't work. Can't lock them for the full flight, at most you can lock them during first/last 30min ascent/descent. But even there, many incidents begin in the air and precipitate an emergency landing. We will then add another item for the checklist (lock the bins) while they are supposed to be focussed on keeping the plane in the air and safely landing it? So needless cost & complexity that will have maintenance costs, inconvenience costs.. and then have a high probability of failure in the one case it was designed for anyway. Many problems are people problems and technology can't solve people.
lbwtaylor 3y ago
With roughly half the number of passengers.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  And twice as many working exits.

quasse 3y ago

Aeroflot Flight 1492 is a perfect example of this. Passengers were actively working to get carry-on bags down the emergency slide as 41 people were burning to death in the back of the plane.

golergka 3y ago
Russians are the very extreme example — we're much more individualistic and self-centered than Dutch, English, or Americans.
ImAnAmateur 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_1492 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_1492 https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/analysis-superjet-fire-puts-focus-on-evacuation-threat/132614.article https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/analysis-superjet-fire... Made for interesting reading. I think that it's possible that one more life could have been saved without those carry-on bags. That's a responsibility the passangers and crew both share.
- tim333 3y ago
  The Russians seem to have an unusual attitude to human life, currently illustrated by the tens of thousands being killed in Ukraine for no particularly good reason. The reaction seems to be >Putin urges Russian women to have ‘eight or more’ children... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-women-eight-children-ukraine-war-b2455957.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-put... rather than avoiding it all by going home and having a cup of tea or some such.
AndrewThrowaway 3y ago
These must be two extremes of cultures. Russian and Japanese must be the very opposites in almost every way.

sho_hn 3y ago

I think that's reductive orientalism.

Freak_NL 3y ago
I don't know. I've lived in both the Netherlands and Japan, and studied the culture (and language) of the latter. In my experience, groups of Japanese people defer to authority in the case of an emergency with a minimum of fuss, where a group of Dutch would show much more hesitation, scepticism, and sometimes outright hostility in a similar situation. You're welcome to call that reductive occidentalism. As a group people from those cultures behave totally differently. I'm not judging either culture with this observation (although I can be quite critical about some aspects of both); it's a simple observable fact.

JoshTko 3y ago

Curious how high this was upvoted with no evidence. Would imply unconscious bias within HN readership of Japanese as obedient.

trebligdivad 3y ago

Flames shooting up around the plane after a collision have got to focus the mind of the passengers; so I guess it's hard to compare different incidents.

BeefDinnerPurge 3y ago
If they're close to the exit, it's clearly someone else's problem for those that aren't in our culture. If only they'd invested in their personal safety they wouldn't be burning to death and how else will they learn?

laweijfmvo 3y ago

Maybe this is a good time for me to vent about exit row seating? I was recently on a holiday flight where an older couple walked very delicately up to the gate. When prompted, "are you able and willing to assist in the event of an emergency?" the lady immediately said "oh no, we can't..." and the guy says "well, there won't be an emergency, right?" To her credit, the crew member checking us in very sternly told him that his attitude was completely unacceptable and that their seats would be moved. But it made me think: realistically, the only people sitting in exit rows should be reasonably fit 18-45 year olds in most cases (and I'd prefer men). Yet it's usually whoever has the most money/points/status to get the extra leg room. /end rant

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
BeefDinnerPurge 3y ago
s/18-45 year olds// s/(and I'd prefer men)// Otherwise I agree. I have no problem with Stallone or Schwarzenegger in the exit rows. But realistically, they fly private jets or in first class. Edit: Ageism and sexism are good, anti-ageism and feminism are bad! That effective accelerationist mindset has no room for the womenfolk or the senile!
LouisSayers 3y ago
> fit 18-45 year olds in most cases Anecdotally, I believe many airlines do this - it's happened to me a few times during check in where they've asked if I'd be OK with the emergency seat.
AndrewThrowaway 3y ago
Is this US or EU or somewhere else? I have some experience in Europe. I (male early thirties then) once was sat in an exit row (replaced with some other passenger) when flying EasyJet. As I understood then only because I seemed to be more fit to sit there. Once travelling with Ryanair stewardess exclaimed that "oh no you will be sitting with a baby in an exit row". We said "no no we are sitting the row behind". She said "thanks god I thought I will need to rearrange passengers". Of course a baby in an exit row MUST be a big no no anywhere. So I have a feeling that it is being looked quite seriously.

oliv__ 3y ago

18 minutes seems like a hell of a long time to get out of a damn burning plane I've never been to Japan but in the US people are standing and ready to exit as soon as the plane docks to the airport so I can imagine people running for their lives in this scenario. 5 minutes at most would seem more understandable

Someone 3y ago
People running for their lives likely will increase the time to get everybody out. Two people might try to get out of an exit door simultaneously, or someone might push over another passenger to get to the exit door, making those behind them trip over the fallen passenger, etc.

mihemihe 3y ago

It comes to my mind the same scenario in Dubai. In the video you can see people leaving the plane with their luggage. https://youtu.be/PyNVUXVhnAw https://youtu.be/PyNVUXVhnAw https://youtu.be/OvNT78ICJlg https://youtu.be/OvNT78ICJlg

rawgabbit 3y ago

I was going to say the same thing. This is the positive aspect of Japanese/East Asian culture. They give authority figures the benefit of the doubt and will listen to instructions. Of course, this obedience to authority has a downside. In South Korea, when the Sewol ferry sank, the crew instructed the passengers to stay inside their rooms while they drank beer and abandoned ship. Many of the obedient passengers drowned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

snakeyjake 3y ago

British Airways flight 2276, 170 passengers and crew. 2 minutes 32 seconds. >All occupants, including one lap child, and the flight and cabin crewmembers evacuated the airplane through the 1L, 1R, or 4L door slides. (The flight attendants estimated that only five passengers evacuated using the 1L door slide, which was subsequently blocked due to fire.) The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) obtained videos that showed that the evacuation was completed about 2 minutes 32 seconds after the captain's initial command to evacuate. https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/4367.pdf https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/4367.pdf TWA Flight 843, 292 passengers and crew. "Less than two minutes" >All of the flight attendants stated that the evacuation was completed in less than 2 minutes. https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR93-04.pdf https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraf... Every time I read a comment about JaPaNeSe CuLtUrE I throw up in my mouth a little because was stationed in Japan for a total of three years and their culture is just as fucked as everyone else's... just in different ways.

jase321 3y ago

I have taken countless Delta and UA flights. I can attest 100%, had this scenarios happened on those flights, near death certainty for those passengers. 90sec from my years of observations not doable by ANY Delta or UA flights unless maybe small 737 with maybe a third full. Their crews and the type of passengers they have guarantee death in this kind of situation. Heck even if you give them 10 mins instead of 90sec, they still will not make it all out.

dehrmann 3y ago
> Their crews...guarantee death in this kind of situation I was recently on a UA flight where, maybe 15 seconds after takeoff, a flight attendant rushed out of her jumpseat to try to shield a passenger from a bag from an overhead bin that had just popped open. n=1, but when it comes down to it in an emergency situation, I bet the flight crew takes their responsibilities very seriously.