14 ms·

I thought a generation of remote work would change attitudes about cities. Why are we still trying to cram into small spaces?

by 1-6 3y ago

polygamous_bat 3y ago
Because some people are social and have fun with other people.
- codybontecou 3y ago
  We've never had social interaction before the modern city /s
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    Erm, you realise that before the “modern city”, every urban area was small and walkable, on account of the car not being invented. The “modern city” or at least the US’s version of a “modern city” is the first time humans have ever lived so far apart at such scale. Enabled only because the car has conditioned so many people to think that driving 30mins to get anywhere interesting is “normal” or “natural”.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      200 years ago 98% of humans were farmers and lived either on the farm or in a small village in walking distance of the farm. Todays cities are nothing like how people lived before modern days. If you were a substance farmer (as was your best case) you had about 5 acres of land - about what you get in the exurbs (though a modern exurb house is a lot bigger/nicer). If you were a slave (not unlikely) you lived in a very crowed boarding house with the other slaves on more land. Sure ancient Rome had 1 million people, but that was not the norm and even then most people were farmers in little villages not living in the city.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Even today a small “rural” town (which the census considers urban, mind you) can be quite the walkable paradise, if your demands for what is nearby are adjusted to be reasonable (say, a target OR a Walmart, but not both).
        bluGill 3y ago
        Maybe, but most of them are not large enough for a walmart. They might have a dollar general, which is just barely enough. The smaller ones don't even have a grocery store anymore. The towns that can support a walmart are large enough that you can't really live in walking distance of the walmart (which is often on the edge of town and far from anything else)
AlexandrB 3y ago
I'm not sure what you mean. Even with remote work, living in a high-density area offers advantages - the primary one (in my mind) being that you don't have to own a car.
- pc86 3y ago
  "Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. More seriously though I do think there are benefits to city living if that's a lifestyle you want, but saving money is almost never one of them unless you have a job where you can make a LOT more living in the city, which sort of by definition means you're not going to be working remotely.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Who said anything about money? Owning a car sucks, dude. Without a car, you don't need a place to store it, you don't need to worry about the safety of your $25,000 item every time you want to go somewhere, you don't need to worry (as much) about being turned into hamburger by your own or some other idiot's mistake. When I go somewhere, I hop on the bus, read a book for a while, and then I'm at my destination. It's fantastic.
    - pc86 3y ago
      It's pretty nice in my experience, dude. But I don't live in a city so it's more of a necessity and none of these downsides are really an issue - which is sort the entire point.
      - coldpie 3y ago
        Ditching cars feels like giving up regular alcohol use did, where the scales fell from my eyes and I see how much better my life is without it, but I can't quite communicate it to others without seeming like a huge judgmental prick :)
mint2 3y ago
Because it’s nice to have practically every amenity possible in easy walking distance I.e 5-10 minutes walk. Probably 20 restaurants, 20 small shops, coffee shops, ups, usps, fedex, hardware stores, museums, parks etc etc all within 10 minutes walk. It’s nice not having to drive for everyday errands. driving and parking is soul draining and causes suburbs to be ugly, not to mention freeways. Those are ugly as sin.
- chung8123 3y ago
  You don't need all of that to have every amenity at a walking distance. I live in the suburbs and I still have almost every amenity walking distance. Do I need 20 restaurants and coffee shops? Having space for your hobbies is nice so if your priority is hobbies that need space living out of the city is nice. If your priority is going out for things it is probably better to live in the city.
  - dionidium 3y ago
    > Do I need 20 restaurants and coffee shops? That should be up to individuals, not central planners.
    - chung8123 3y ago
      Agreed. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
  - rcpt 3y ago
    > live in the suburbs and I still have almost every amenity walking distance Are you sure you live in a suburb?
    - chung8123 3y ago
      Of course I am sure. If you plan where you live you can live in the suburbs just fine and still be able to walk most places. I have done it in the last few places I have lived. They even have bus routes. Suburbs can be walk-able for those that make it a priority. Many don't care and will pick their homes with different criteria.
crote 3y ago
Because a lot of people like living in cities. They want to visit friends, go to a museum, join a sports club, check out a book from the library, go shopping, visit a restaurant - there's way more of those in a city than in the countryside.
throw0101d 3y ago
> Why are we still trying to cram into small spaces? Define "small". Here are some examples houses in an urban area with front yards, back yards, and garages (attached to lanes): * https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/70+Jackman+Ave+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/70+Jackman+Ave+Toronto,+ON A little less square footage: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O... The Oh the Urbanity channel has a video on the (mistaken) idea that "urban living" = Manhattan / Hong Kong apartment blocks, which is certainly not the case: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmz-fgp24E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmz-fgp24E Plenty of that was build pre-WW2 in ways that didn't depend on cars: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0&t=1m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0&t=1m8s Suburban design is the worst of both worlds: lacking the density of the urban so infrastructure is inefficient and so is transportation, and basically bulldozing what makes more rural living nice (closeness to nature).
- jjav 3y ago
  > Define "small". Here are some examples houses in an urban area with front yards, back yards, and garages (attached to lanes) Those are suburbs. There's a park even, and no highrises in sight based on streetview.
tstrimple 3y ago
Because sprawl is economically unsustainable and dense urban tax bases subsidize practically everything else.
ch4s3 3y ago
I live in a neighborhood in an East Coast city where the housing is all row homes. I have about 1400 sq/ft or 130 m^2. It's really nice, I have a home office, we have a spare bedroom, I can walk 4 minutes to get groceries, there's a commercial street a few minutes walk away, and access to busses/a train. It's really quite nice.
lukas099 3y ago
For one, most jobs are not remote.
danaris 3y ago
A generation? We've had about 3 years of (ubiquitous) remote work; that's nowhere near enough to call "a generation", nor to bring about a sea change in attitudes. Even then, this entire time there's been a steady chorus of voices admonishing us that if we think remote work is better, it's just because we're slacking off; we don't recognize the real, important benefits of ad-hoc in-person communication; this is just a fad that will end any day now. Aaaaany day now...
forthwall 3y ago
Small is relative; I live in a relatively large apartment (1000sqr feet) in a super dense part of a city; everything I can access (gym, food, healthcare) is within less than 5 walk and I have a great community of people I meet with almost every day; almost by accident :) I like the dense space, and 1000sqr feet is not really small. I don't see the value of owning endless nothing, I'd rather go to the forest to be alone, fortunately a bus line takes me there; or I can ride an ebike.

I thought a generation of remote work would change attitudes about cities. Why are we still trying to cram into small spaces?

by 1-6 3y ago

I thought a generation of remote work would change attitudes about cities. Why are we still trying to cram into small spaces?

polygamous_bat 3y ago

Because some people are social and have fun with other people.

codybontecou 3y ago
We've never had social interaction before the modern city /s
- avianlyric 3y ago
  Erm, you realise that before the “modern city”, every urban area was small and walkable, on account of the car not being invented. The “modern city” or at least the US’s version of a “modern city” is the first time humans have ever lived so far apart at such scale. Enabled only because the car has conditioned so many people to think that driving 30mins to get anywhere interesting is “normal” or “natural”.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    200 years ago 98% of humans were farmers and lived either on the farm or in a small village in walking distance of the farm. Todays cities are nothing like how people lived before modern days. If you were a substance farmer (as was your best case) you had about 5 acres of land - about what you get in the exurbs (though a modern exurb house is a lot bigger/nicer). If you were a slave (not unlikely) you lived in a very crowed boarding house with the other slaves on more land. Sure ancient Rome had 1 million people, but that was not the norm and even then most people were farmers in little villages not living in the city.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Even today a small “rural” town (which the census considers urban, mind you) can be quite the walkable paradise, if your demands for what is nearby are adjusted to be reasonable (say, a target OR a Walmart, but not both).
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Maybe, but most of them are not large enough for a walmart. They might have a dollar general, which is just barely enough. The smaller ones don't even have a grocery store anymore. The towns that can support a walmart are large enough that you can't really live in walking distance of the walmart (which is often on the edge of town and far from anything else)

AlexandrB 3y ago

I'm not sure what you mean. Even with remote work, living in a high-density area offers advantages - the primary one (in my mind) being that you don't have to own a car.

pc86 3y ago
"Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. More seriously though I do think there are benefits to city living if that's a lifestyle you want, but saving money is almost never one of them unless you have a job where you can make a LOT more living in the city, which sort of by definition means you're not going to be working remotely.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Who said anything about money? Owning a car sucks, dude. Without a car, you don't need a place to store it, you don't need to worry about the safety of your $25,000 item every time you want to go somewhere, you don't need to worry (as much) about being turned into hamburger by your own or some other idiot's mistake. When I go somewhere, I hop on the bus, read a book for a while, and then I'm at my destination. It's fantastic.
  - pc86 3y ago
    It's pretty nice in my experience, dude. But I don't live in a city so it's more of a necessity and none of these downsides are really an issue - which is sort the entire point.
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Ditching cars feels like giving up regular alcohol use did, where the scales fell from my eyes and I see how much better my life is without it, but I can't quite communicate it to others without seeming like a huge judgmental prick :)

mint2 3y ago

Because it’s nice to have practically every amenity possible in easy walking distance I.e 5-10 minutes walk. Probably 20 restaurants, 20 small shops, coffee shops, ups, usps, fedex, hardware stores, museums, parks etc etc all within 10 minutes walk. It’s nice not having to drive for everyday errands. driving and parking is soul draining and causes suburbs to be ugly, not to mention freeways. Those are ugly as sin.

chung8123 3y ago
You don't need all of that to have every amenity at a walking distance. I live in the suburbs and I still have almost every amenity walking distance. Do I need 20 restaurants and coffee shops? Having space for your hobbies is nice so if your priority is hobbies that need space living out of the city is nice. If your priority is going out for things it is probably better to live in the city.
- dionidium 3y ago
  > Do I need 20 restaurants and coffee shops? That should be up to individuals, not central planners.
  - chung8123 3y ago
    Agreed. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
- rcpt 3y ago
  > live in the suburbs and I still have almost every amenity walking distance Are you sure you live in a suburb?
  - chung8123 3y ago
    Of course I am sure. If you plan where you live you can live in the suburbs just fine and still be able to walk most places. I have done it in the last few places I have lived. They even have bus routes. Suburbs can be walk-able for those that make it a priority. Many don't care and will pick their homes with different criteria.

crote 3y ago

Because a lot of people like living in cities. They want to visit friends, go to a museum, join a sports club, check out a book from the library, go shopping, visit a restaurant - there's way more of those in a city than in the countryside.

throw0101d 3y ago

> Why are we still trying to cram into small spaces? Define "small". Here are some examples houses in an urban area with front yards, back yards, and garages (attached to lanes): * https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/70+Jackman+Ave+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/70+Jackman+Ave+Toronto,+ON A little less square footage: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+... * https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O... The Oh the Urbanity channel has a video on the (mistaken) idea that "urban living" = Manhattan / Hong Kong apartment blocks, which is certainly not the case: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmz-fgp24E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmz-fgp24E Plenty of that was build pre-WW2 in ways that didn't depend on cars: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0&t=1m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0&t=1m8s Suburban design is the worst of both worlds: lacking the density of the urban so infrastructure is inefficient and so is transportation, and basically bulldozing what makes more rural living nice (closeness to nature).

jjav 3y ago
> Define "small". Here are some examples houses in an urban area with front yards, back yards, and garages (attached to lanes) Those are suburbs. There's a park even, and no highrises in sight based on streetview.

tstrimple 3y ago

Because sprawl is economically unsustainable and dense urban tax bases subsidize practically everything else.

ch4s3 3y ago

I live in a neighborhood in an East Coast city where the housing is all row homes. I have about 1400 sq/ft or 130 m^2. It's really nice, I have a home office, we have a spare bedroom, I can walk 4 minutes to get groceries, there's a commercial street a few minutes walk away, and access to busses/a train. It's really quite nice.

lukas099 3y ago

For one, most jobs are not remote.

danaris 3y ago

A generation? We've had about 3 years of (ubiquitous) remote work; that's nowhere near enough to call "a generation", nor to bring about a sea change in attitudes. Even then, this entire time there's been a steady chorus of voices admonishing us that if we think remote work is better, it's just because we're slacking off; we don't recognize the real, important benefits of ad-hoc in-person communication; this is just a fad that will end any day now. Aaaaany day now...

forthwall 3y ago

Small is relative; I live in a relatively large apartment (1000sqr feet) in a super dense part of a city; everything I can access (gym, food, healthcare) is within less than 5 walk and I have a great community of people I meet with almost every day; almost by accident :) I like the dense space, and 1000sqr feet is not really small. I don't see the value of owning endless nothing, I'd rather go to the forest to be alone, fortunately a bus line takes me there; or I can ride an ebike.