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> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical action

> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical actions to protect the common interests of both countries and their companies and maintain the stability of international supply chains". This amuses me greatly. I had no idea China is explicitly pro-market capitalism.

supermatt 3y ago
where have you been the past 40+ years? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy
esafak 3y ago
America's respect for free market principles here doesn't amuse you too?
- corethree 3y ago
  This site is American and thus patriotism plays a heavy role in the bias of comments. Usually, China is by default viewed in a negative light. It blinds people to the obvious fact that the US is heavily using anti free market tactics to end globalism while China is not acting as the aggressor here.
  - esafak 3y ago
    America loves competition as long as it's winning.
  - Roark66 3y ago
    Every country in the world is supposed to work to further the interests of its citizens (in accordance with human rights, international agreements etc). Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly. Did China and EU sign a comprehensive free trade agreement when I was asleep? (as Netherlands is an EU country and all cross border trade lawmaking is offloaded to the EU). If not, they really should just shut up. There of course exists a World Trade Organisation which is like a treaty that essentially says "we're not going to engage in targeted regulation", but it has caveats "unless it has to do with national security" and few other things. So it's really a framework to facilitate trade rather than a global free market.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly Tell that to the US and Americans that don't shut up about it any time a country other than theirs does something even vaguely protectionist. It will never not be funny that Boeing pushed Bombardier over the edge with protectionist tariffs over state subsidies while simultaneously suing Airbus for getting state subsidies while simultaneously getting billions of state subsidies themselves.
      - esafak 3y ago
        A selective memory works wonders for cognitive dissonance. Doctor approved!
    - corethree 3y ago
      National security is the cover story. The real story is about economic power.
jpgvm 3y ago
China is a more market orientated economy than most people would expect. There are large SOEs (state owned enterprises) sure but ultimately the whole point of "communism with Chinese characteristics" is to leverage market forces for efficiency where that makes sense. China generally speaking is very free from a business/trade perspective, the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries. I would say the Chinese aspire to be more on the EU-esq end of the regulation spectrum than the US though. So over time they are trending towards more regulation even as they open up areas that were traditionally SOE only to private enterprise.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries. Yes, those things are off limits. Now, how do you define what's finance or national security? Whatever they need to control (the US does this too). All of these "China is a free market" comments are funny; their capital markets are closed, you can't freely move money in and out without government permission.
  - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
    So exactly the same as in the US? For instance the Russians got their assets frozen by a whim of the US government
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      Russians got their assets frozen because they are aggressive genocidal invaders.
      - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
        It doesn't matter if it was ethically justified or not. The fact remains that the assets were frozen by the US government which runs contrary to the notion that the US allows unrestricted capital movement. Today it's Russians' assets, yesterday it was Afghanistan's central bank's assets and tomorrow it can be any other country
tom_boneahawk 3y ago
China has been explicitly pro-market for the last 40+ years (see: Deng's reforms)
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It has been ambiguously pro market, not explicitly. They still have lots of protections in their economy, it isn’t a place where pure capitalism and free trade are the dominant ideologies.
adamsb6 3y ago
Walk around any Chinese city and you’ll see hundreds of small businesses, as well as evidence of massive conglomerates. That the state reserves the right to interfere as it sees fit doesn’t make it not capitalist. Unless the current chip war is evidence of America being not capitalist.
- Roark66 3y ago
  By this measure even North Korea may be considered capitalist as there are private (illegal, but often unenforced) businesses. The essence of capitalism is not existence of private enterprises, mafia(or an oligarchy) is a private enterprise. Capitalism requires the rule of law that enforces private ownership and laws people can count on to resolve commercial disputes. This is what differentiates capitalism (US, Europe etc) from authoritarianism (China) or mafia run states(Russia).
FooBarWidget 3y ago
China has been pro-market since the 80s. But they don't view markets as fundamentally incompatible with socialism. Their approach is to utilize markets and to further open up, but to step in when the market fails. In other words: yes to markets, but use it as a tool and don't trust it blindly. For example the recent real estate bubble pop was intentional. They've recognized for a decade that the real estate market is dysfunctional and that people shouldn't invest all their money into a rent-seeking unproductive dead-end. Instead, they want the market to redirect their money to advanced technology like advanced manufacturing, semiconductors, AI, etc. And that's happening now.
- biotopia 3y ago
  China was pro-market until Xi Jing Ping tightened control. The moment when everyone realized that things had changed was when Jack Ma's ant group was prevented from going IPO, and Jack disappeared shortly after for a long while. Now it's regressing quickly back into state controlled economy.
  - FooBarWidget 3y ago
    I think Eric Li is the best speaker around who's able to explain what's actually going on, cutting through the sensationalism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb835NzfzFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb835NzfzFw

supermatt 3y ago

where have you been the past 40+ years? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy

esafak 3y ago

America's respect for free market principles here doesn't amuse you too?

corethree 3y ago
This site is American and thus patriotism plays a heavy role in the bias of comments. Usually, China is by default viewed in a negative light. It blinds people to the obvious fact that the US is heavily using anti free market tactics to end globalism while China is not acting as the aggressor here.
- esafak 3y ago
  America loves competition as long as it's winning.
- Roark66 3y ago
  Every country in the world is supposed to work to further the interests of its citizens (in accordance with human rights, international agreements etc). Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly. Did China and EU sign a comprehensive free trade agreement when I was asleep? (as Netherlands is an EU country and all cross border trade lawmaking is offloaded to the EU). If not, they really should just shut up. There of course exists a World Trade Organisation which is like a treaty that essentially says "we're not going to engage in targeted regulation", but it has caveats "unless it has to do with national security" and few other things. So it's really a framework to facilitate trade rather than a global free market.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly Tell that to the US and Americans that don't shut up about it any time a country other than theirs does something even vaguely protectionist. It will never not be funny that Boeing pushed Bombardier over the edge with protectionist tariffs over state subsidies while simultaneously suing Airbus for getting state subsidies while simultaneously getting billions of state subsidies themselves.
    - esafak 3y ago
      A selective memory works wonders for cognitive dissonance. Doctor approved!
  - corethree 3y ago
    National security is the cover story. The real story is about economic power.

jpgvm 3y ago

China is a more market orientated economy than most people would expect. There are large SOEs (state owned enterprises) sure but ultimately the whole point of "communism with Chinese characteristics" is to leverage market forces for efficiency where that makes sense. China generally speaking is very free from a business/trade perspective, the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries. I would say the Chinese aspire to be more on the EU-esq end of the regulation spectrum than the US though. So over time they are trending towards more regulation even as they open up areas that were traditionally SOE only to private enterprise.

itsoktocry 3y ago
>the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries. Yes, those things are off limits. Now, how do you define what's finance or national security? Whatever they need to control (the US does this too). All of these "China is a free market" comments are funny; their capital markets are closed, you can't freely move money in and out without government permission.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  So exactly the same as in the US? For instance the Russians got their assets frozen by a whim of the US government
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Russians got their assets frozen because they are aggressive genocidal invaders.
    - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
      It doesn't matter if it was ethically justified or not. The fact remains that the assets were frozen by the US government which runs contrary to the notion that the US allows unrestricted capital movement. Today it's Russians' assets, yesterday it was Afghanistan's central bank's assets and tomorrow it can be any other country

tom_boneahawk 3y ago

China has been explicitly pro-market for the last 40+ years (see: Deng's reforms)

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
It has been ambiguously pro market, not explicitly. They still have lots of protections in their economy, it isn’t a place where pure capitalism and free trade are the dominant ideologies.

adamsb6 3y ago

Walk around any Chinese city and you’ll see hundreds of small businesses, as well as evidence of massive conglomerates. That the state reserves the right to interfere as it sees fit doesn’t make it not capitalist. Unless the current chip war is evidence of America being not capitalist.

Roark66 3y ago
By this measure even North Korea may be considered capitalist as there are private (illegal, but often unenforced) businesses. The essence of capitalism is not existence of private enterprises, mafia(or an oligarchy) is a private enterprise. Capitalism requires the rule of law that enforces private ownership and laws people can count on to resolve commercial disputes. This is what differentiates capitalism (US, Europe etc) from authoritarianism (China) or mafia run states(Russia).

FooBarWidget 3y ago

China has been pro-market since the 80s. But they don't view markets as fundamentally incompatible with socialism. Their approach is to utilize markets and to further open up, but to step in when the market fails. In other words: yes to markets, but use it as a tool and don't trust it blindly. For example the recent real estate bubble pop was intentional. They've recognized for a decade that the real estate market is dysfunctional and that people shouldn't invest all their money into a rent-seeking unproductive dead-end. Instead, they want the market to redirect their money to advanced technology like advanced manufacturing, semiconductors, AI, etc. And that's happening now.

biotopia 3y ago
China was pro-market until Xi Jing Ping tightened control. The moment when everyone realized that things had changed was when Jack Ma's ant group was prevented from going IPO, and Jack disappeared shortly after for a long while. Now it's regressing quickly back into state controlled economy.
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  I think Eric Li is the best speaker around who's able to explain what's actually going on, cutting through the sensationalism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb835NzfzFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb835NzfzFw