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Even if you’re not a Firefox user, Firefox and Safari are the only two things keeping Chrome from total dominance. A lot of people don’t like Safari because it

by MBCook 3y ago

Even if you’re not a Firefox user, Firefox and Safari are the only two things keeping Chrome from total dominance. A lot of people don’t like Safari because it’s from Apple, the priorities they choose, or the fact that is not fully open source like Firefox is. There are basically three rendering engines right now. One dominates massively and one looks not long for the world. That doesn’t seem like a good situation to me. So I don’t want Firefox to die even though it’s not my daily browser.

ramesh31 3y ago
>That doesn’t seem like a good situation to me. So I don’t want Firefox to die even though it’s not my daily browser. ...so make it your daily browser? Seriously, there's no reason at all to still be using Chrome. There was a dip in the mid/late 2010s where FF was a joke in comparison, but they're more or less identical in performance at this point.
- MBCook 3y ago
  I don’t use Chrome. I use Safari. It is and has always been my choice since it was released. But I still think it’s better if Firefox exists. —— My experience has been kind of odd compared to most. I switched to the Mac before Chrome or Safari came out. When Safari arrived it was vastly faster than anything else at the time. So it became my browser. People on Windows or Linux couldn’t use Safari (I tried the Windows version, let’s not talk about that, ouch). So when Chrome came out, and they left IE/FF, they got the same giant performance jump that I liked so much but associated it with a different product. I’m sure I would’ve done the same thing if I was still on Windows. Firefox eventually got way better, becoming what it is today. But almost everyone had already moved to Chrome. I’m left with this sort of weird view of the world. When I did try Chrome it wasn’t noticeably faster than Safari because it was using the same rendering engine at the time, but it had a really different UI design that I didn’t like. So a huge amount of people really love Chrome because of their experiences, and I hate it for the same reason. All because of the order I ended up using browsers in.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>Firefox and Safari are the only two things keeping Chrome from total dominance. Safari yes, but truthfully nobody gives a damn about Firefox at this point. >A lot of people don’t like Safari because it’s from Apple, the priorities they choose, or the fact that is not fully open source like Firefox is. "A lot" meaning a minority of a minority of people. Lest we forget, iOS is superior to Android in at least the US and Japan, and MacOS continues to gain market share at the cost of Windows. Most people like (or at least want) Apple.
- MBCook 3y ago
  I agree. FF is a distant third. But it’s the only credible third I know of. Brave, Edge, and friends are just Chromium so they’re the same rendering engine as Chrome. On the Safari topic I was going by the general sentiment I see on HN. The general public couldn’t care less what is or is not open source. Over the years I’ve noticed a weird (to me) contingent here on HN who appeared to think the best thing for the Internet would be for Safari to be killed so everyone would be forced to use Chrome.
- daeros 3y ago
  Color me not most people as I hate and do not want apple and would rather castrate myself t han buy their products.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Thank you for proving why I added that comment about how Safari would not be acceptable to many people.
betaby 3y ago
> There are basically three rendering engines right now Genially curious, which ones? I only know two: 1) khtml based - Chrome/Edge/Safari 2) Gecko based - Firefox Third would be Servo? Any browser uses it?
- meatmanek 3y ago
  I think they're counting Webkit (Safari) and Blink (Chrome) as two separate engines. Given that it's been 10 years since Blink forked from Webkit, I think that's fair.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    I was. Things have shifted enough (it’s been 10 years? Wow!) I think it’s fair to consider them separate. They also use completely different JS backends.
  - captn3m0 3y ago
    Blink was 10 years ago! I feel old suddenly.
- int_19h 3y ago
  Lumping WebKit (Safari) and Blink (Chrome/Edge/...) together stopped being meaningful quite a long time ago.
- jlokier 3y ago
  Chrome and Edge use the Blink rendering engine (except on iOS). Safari uses WebKit. Firefox uses Gecko. (Edge used to use its own engine, EdgeHTML, but switched to Blink and EdgeHTML is no longer developed. EdgeHTML was derived from the Trident/MSHTML engine, which is also no longer developed.) Blink and WebKit can both trace their history to khtml, but that was a very long time ago. Chrome used to use WebKit (before Edge existed). Blink was forked from WebKit and they diverged about 10 years ago. They are now considered distinct rendering engines with different behaviours. So the big three rendering engines today are: Blink, WebKit and Gecko. All browsers in wide use today use one of those three. On iOS, all browsers use WebKit due to OS policy restrictions. Chrome and Firefox use WebKit on iOS. This works, and different browsers continue to have their own respective featureson top. It is widely thought that if Apple loses the power to limit the rendering engine on iOS due to changes in law, so many web devs will drop testing with WebKit browsers that they will pressure users to install Chrome on iOS instead: "Best viewed in Chrome. Some site features may not work using other browsers...". The same way many web devs already dropped testing on Firefox/Gecko. Those site features may become critical, such as abitiy to sign in or view some kinds of data. Apps will ship with parts of Chrome/Blink directly in the app, saving users the decision. This is what people mean when they say Apple's rendering engine policy on iOS may be all that's preventing most of the web shifting to Chrome/Blink-only dominance, that you won't be able to avoid if you need essential services online.
charcircuit 3y ago
You are forgetting Edge. >That doesn’t seem like a good situation to me. Nothing is stopping alternate rendering engines from being created, but if the alternates are not better and not worth integrating with a browser the resources might be better spent being invested in the most popular one that way it improves the web for the most people.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  Edge is based on chromium
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Right. Edge used to have its own rendering engine, but they ditched it. At this point it’s the same as Brave and some other browsers. From a rendering point of view, it’s 100% Chromium. All of its customizations are above the engine, at least as far as I know.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    But it has a good chunk of market share which is was being talked about.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      Did it get very big? I know it obviously never challenged Chrome but did it ever get up to like 10% before the switch? Even if it didn’t it was an independent browser that could have been a competitor until they gave that up.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        It currently is still a competitor. The switch of an internal browser engine doesn't make two products no longer competitors.
        MBCook 3y ago
Klonoar 3y ago
It’s Safari doing it by way of iOS. If you remove that, neither Safari nor Firefox make much of a dent.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Sadly I think that’s about to happen in the name of “openness”. I understand all the arguments against Apple getting to lock everyone into their browser. But the practical effect, I fear, will be disaster when they’re forced to allow it.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
Making firefox your daily browser would do a lot for making sure it doesn't die...
- MBCook 3y ago
  I’d prefer to support my favorite (Safari) when voting with my feet. I don’t want to be forced to give it up either.
perryizgr8 3y ago
> A lot of people don’t like Safari because it’s from Apple Also the fact that most people cannot use it. The vast majority do not have a MacOS computer or Ios phone/tablet.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Apple could release it for other platforms (let’s not talk about the original Windows release). Or others could build a browser on the engine. You’re right most people couldn’t switch tomorrow. Right now Firefox is the only credible non-Chromium browser I’m aware of for Windows/Linux. Honestly that comment was mostly there to try to forestall the people I expected would come out of the woodwork with vehement Apple hate. And if someone did in one of the replies below my comment.

by MBCook 3y ago

ramesh31 3y ago

>That doesn’t seem like a good situation to me. So I don’t want Firefox to die even though it’s not my daily browser. ...so make it your daily browser? Seriously, there's no reason at all to still be using Chrome. There was a dip in the mid/late 2010s where FF was a joke in comparison, but they're more or less identical in performance at this point.

MBCook 3y ago
I don’t use Chrome. I use Safari. It is and has always been my choice since it was released. But I still think it’s better if Firefox exists. —— My experience has been kind of odd compared to most. I switched to the Mac before Chrome or Safari came out. When Safari arrived it was vastly faster than anything else at the time. So it became my browser. People on Windows or Linux couldn’t use Safari (I tried the Windows version, let’s not talk about that, ouch). So when Chrome came out, and they left IE/FF, they got the same giant performance jump that I liked so much but associated it with a different product. I’m sure I would’ve done the same thing if I was still on Windows. Firefox eventually got way better, becoming what it is today. But almost everyone had already moved to Chrome. I’m left with this sort of weird view of the world. When I did try Chrome it wasn’t noticeably faster than Safari because it was using the same rendering engine at the time, but it had a really different UI design that I didn’t like. So a huge amount of people really love Chrome because of their experiences, and I hate it for the same reason. All because of the order I ended up using browsers in.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>Firefox and Safari are the only two things keeping Chrome from total dominance. Safari yes, but truthfully nobody gives a damn about Firefox at this point. >A lot of people don’t like Safari because it’s from Apple, the priorities they choose, or the fact that is not fully open source like Firefox is. "A lot" meaning a minority of a minority of people. Lest we forget, iOS is superior to Android in at least the US and Japan, and MacOS continues to gain market share at the cost of Windows. Most people like (or at least want) Apple.

MBCook 3y ago
I agree. FF is a distant third. But it’s the only credible third I know of. Brave, Edge, and friends are just Chromium so they’re the same rendering engine as Chrome. On the Safari topic I was going by the general sentiment I see on HN. The general public couldn’t care less what is or is not open source. Over the years I’ve noticed a weird (to me) contingent here on HN who appeared to think the best thing for the Internet would be for Safari to be killed so everyone would be forced to use Chrome.
daeros 3y ago
Color me not most people as I hate and do not want apple and would rather castrate myself t han buy their products.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Thank you for proving why I added that comment about how Safari would not be acceptable to many people.

betaby 3y ago

> There are basically three rendering engines right now Genially curious, which ones? I only know two: 1) khtml based - Chrome/Edge/Safari 2) Gecko based - Firefox Third would be Servo? Any browser uses it?

meatmanek 3y ago
I think they're counting Webkit (Safari) and Blink (Chrome) as two separate engines. Given that it's been 10 years since Blink forked from Webkit, I think that's fair.
- MBCook 3y ago
  I was. Things have shifted enough (it’s been 10 years? Wow!) I think it’s fair to consider them separate. They also use completely different JS backends.
- captn3m0 3y ago
  Blink was 10 years ago! I feel old suddenly.
int_19h 3y ago
Lumping WebKit (Safari) and Blink (Chrome/Edge/...) together stopped being meaningful quite a long time ago.
jlokier 3y ago
Chrome and Edge use the Blink rendering engine (except on iOS). Safari uses WebKit. Firefox uses Gecko. (Edge used to use its own engine, EdgeHTML, but switched to Blink and EdgeHTML is no longer developed. EdgeHTML was derived from the Trident/MSHTML engine, which is also no longer developed.) Blink and WebKit can both trace their history to khtml, but that was a very long time ago. Chrome used to use WebKit (before Edge existed). Blink was forked from WebKit and they diverged about 10 years ago. They are now considered distinct rendering engines with different behaviours. So the big three rendering engines today are: Blink, WebKit and Gecko. All browsers in wide use today use one of those three. On iOS, all browsers use WebKit due to OS policy restrictions. Chrome and Firefox use WebKit on iOS. This works, and different browsers continue to have their own respective featureson top. It is widely thought that if Apple loses the power to limit the rendering engine on iOS due to changes in law, so many web devs will drop testing with WebKit browsers that they will pressure users to install Chrome on iOS instead: "Best viewed in Chrome. Some site features may not work using other browsers...". The same way many web devs already dropped testing on Firefox/Gecko. Those site features may become critical, such as abitiy to sign in or view some kinds of data. Apps will ship with parts of Chrome/Blink directly in the app, saving users the decision. This is what people mean when they say Apple's rendering engine policy on iOS may be all that's preventing most of the web shifting to Chrome/Blink-only dominance, that you won't be able to avoid if you need essential services online.

charcircuit 3y ago

You are forgetting Edge. >That doesn’t seem like a good situation to me. Nothing is stopping alternate rendering engines from being created, but if the alternates are not better and not worth integrating with a browser the resources might be better spent being invested in the most popular one that way it improves the web for the most people.

elzbardico 3y ago
Edge is based on chromium
- MBCook 3y ago
  Right. Edge used to have its own rendering engine, but they ditched it. At this point it’s the same as Brave and some other browsers. From a rendering point of view, it’s 100% Chromium. All of its customizations are above the engine, at least as far as I know.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  But it has a good chunk of market share which is was being talked about.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Did it get very big? I know it obviously never challenged Chrome but did it ever get up to like 10% before the switch? Even if it didn’t it was an independent browser that could have been a competitor until they gave that up.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      It currently is still a competitor. The switch of an internal browser engine doesn't make two products no longer competitors.
      - MBCook 3y ago

Klonoar 3y ago

It’s Safari doing it by way of iOS. If you remove that, neither Safari nor Firefox make much of a dent.

MBCook 3y ago
Sadly I think that’s about to happen in the name of “openness”. I understand all the arguments against Apple getting to lock everyone into their browser. But the practical effect, I fear, will be disaster when they’re forced to allow it.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

Making firefox your daily browser would do a lot for making sure it doesn't die...

MBCook 3y ago
I’d prefer to support my favorite (Safari) when voting with my feet. I don’t want to be forced to give it up either.

perryizgr8 3y ago

> A lot of people don’t like Safari because it’s from Apple Also the fact that most people cannot use it. The vast majority do not have a MacOS computer or Ios phone/tablet.

MBCook 3y ago
Apple could release it for other platforms (let’s not talk about the original Windows release). Or others could build a browser on the engine. You’re right most people couldn’t switch tomorrow. Right now Firefox is the only credible non-Chromium browser I’m aware of for Windows/Linux. Honestly that comment was mostly there to try to forestall the people I expected would come out of the woodwork with vehement Apple hate. And if someone did in one of the replies below my comment.