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It is a hard question to answer because the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. The question isn’t black and white. If you support free

It is a hard question to answer because the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. The question isn’t black and white. If you support free speech, you have to support objectionable speech that you disagree with, unless it moves from being speech to being targeted or actionable. That was the whole crux of her answer and why it was a completely dishonest question. Harvard allows the Westboro Church to say “God hates f*s” and “death to queers” despite many not liking it because it’s free speech until someone takes action on that. It’s even more ludicrous considering that the people attempting to push the question dishonestly are the same ones who like to cry about free speech on Twitter, a private platform, while saying free speech should be curbed if it’s objectionable in this case at a university that takes public funding.

dudul 3y ago
> It’s even more ludicrous considering that the people attempting to push the question dishonestly are the same ones who like to cry about free speech on Twitter How do you know they are the same people?
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  Because Elise Stefanik, the Congresswoman in question, cosponsored the “Protecting Free Speech” Act and the “Restoring Academic Freedom on Campus” Act which are supposedly meant to “prevent colleges and universities from stifling the free expression of diverse viewpoints”. As usual, it’s only to prevent stifling the viewpoints they agree with.
dekhn 3y ago
I think "death to queers" doesn't fall under freedom of speech because it seems to directly call for violence- speech doesn't need to lead to actions to be considered uncovered by free speech rules. The other example you gave is free speech, because it's not a call to violence. (I am applying my own interpretation of free speech laws, as well as the general understanding of legitimate free speech in the US; please assume I have a reasonable level of education on this).
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  It’s already been ruled that “death to queers” is allowed as long as it doesn’t target individuals or amount to a “true threat” which exactly what Gay’s point was during the hearing. The speech itself is protected unless it’s targeted (which “from the river to the sea” or whatever it is and the word “intifada” likely wouldn’t be) and actionable which it definitely isn’t. It would need to be proven that the people making the speech had the intent of directly or indirectly harming the people they had targeted. All this discussion does is prove that there’s nuance to the question and that it’s not black and white which is exactly why I believe it was a dishonest question to begin with.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > speech itself is protected unless it’s targeted It's First Amendment protected. Universities have a long track record of having policies more restrictive than that.
    - dpkonofa 3y ago
      Yes and that’s a direct quote from Gay during the hearing - “Gay, in her testimony, said such speech can be a violation of the school’s policies “depending on the context” if it is “targeted at an individual.””
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        Which is mincemeat of an answer. Plenty of hate speech is banned on university campuses even when not targeted at an indi vidual.
        dpkonofa 3y ago
        That’s irrelevant unless you have examples of this being the case at Harvard.
        3y ago
someuser2345 3y ago
What do you mean "Harvard allows the Westboro Church"? Harvard has no power over the church.
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  Westboro Baptist is allowed to protest at Harvard graduations based on the university’s policies. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/12/2/harvard-protest-westboro-time/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/12/2/harvard-protest...
  - someuser2345 3y ago
    Based on that article, it doesn't sound like Harvard is allowing them, it sounds like they have no power to stop them, since they're protesting near Harvard.
    - dpkonofa 3y ago
      They are allowed on campus. Harvard is a private school and can ask anyone to leave the campus for any reason.
haberman 3y ago
> It is a hard question to answer because the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. The question isn’t black and white. If you support free speech, you have to support objectionable speech that you disagree with, unless it moves from being speech to being targeted or actionable. This is a great philosophy. I only wish Harvard had thought to embrace it prior to last October, instead of coming in dead last on FIRE's free speech index: https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-fires-college-free-speech-rankings https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-f... I hope that this experience will lead Harvard to actually commit to a free speech culture across the board. But I am admittedly pessimistic that any kind of consistent application of these principles will result.
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  FIRE's free speech index is hardly definitive. It asks students about how they feel, not about actual, verifiable support from the school. The survey uses questions like "Would you be opposed to a speaker with x view coming to campus to speak" and then base the results on how the students responded, not based on whether or not the school actually restricted students' speech. Additionally, disinvitations are measured as well despite not being examples of student speech being censored. Harvard clearly scored poorly but it seems like they only scored poorly because the students aren't ok with viewpoints that are non-inclusive or borderline hate speech. It has nothing to do with the school's policies or positions on free speech and what is or isn't allowed.
  - haberman 3y ago
    The survey does not ask "Would you be opposed...?" It asks: > Student groups often invite speakers to campus to express their views on a range of topics. Regardless of your own views on the topic, should your school ALLOW or NOT ALLOW a speaker on campus who promotes the following idea? Someone who truly supports free speech would say "ALLOW" even if they themselves personally disagree with the speech. Students at Harvard apparently do not. Additionally, the survey asks students whether they support suppressing speech via deplatforming or violence, and whether they believe that the administration would defend the rights of speakers when controversy arises. The questions can be found on page 76 of this PDF: https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2023/09/CFSR%202024_final_updated.pdf https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2023/09/CFSR%202... > Additionally, disinvitations are measured as well despite not being examples of student speech being censored. A second ago you said that free speech covers the Westboro Baptist Church coming on campus. Now it only applies to students? If someone is being disinvited, presumably someone invited them to begin with, whether students or faculty.
eli_gottlieb 3y ago
> the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. No they don't!
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  They literally have a policy that allows students to say things that are considered objectionable and, unless you have examples where they've violated that (disinvitations are not censorship of student speech as the invites are external), you'll need to do better than just "No they don't!".
iteratethis 3y ago
It doesn't have such policy. It's the lowest ranking university with a free speech score of 0. ZERO.
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  It does. FIRE asks students how they feel about free speech. It has nothing to do with what actions schools have actually taken and what their policies are.

dudul 3y ago

> It’s even more ludicrous considering that the people attempting to push the question dishonestly are the same ones who like to cry about free speech on Twitter How do you know they are the same people?

dpkonofa 3y ago
Because Elise Stefanik, the Congresswoman in question, cosponsored the “Protecting Free Speech” Act and the “Restoring Academic Freedom on Campus” Act which are supposedly meant to “prevent colleges and universities from stifling the free expression of diverse viewpoints”. As usual, it’s only to prevent stifling the viewpoints they agree with.

dekhn 3y ago

I think "death to queers" doesn't fall under freedom of speech because it seems to directly call for violence- speech doesn't need to lead to actions to be considered uncovered by free speech rules. The other example you gave is free speech, because it's not a call to violence. (I am applying my own interpretation of free speech laws, as well as the general understanding of legitimate free speech in the US; please assume I have a reasonable level of education on this).

dpkonofa 3y ago
It’s already been ruled that “death to queers” is allowed as long as it doesn’t target individuals or amount to a “true threat” which exactly what Gay’s point was during the hearing. The speech itself is protected unless it’s targeted (which “from the river to the sea” or whatever it is and the word “intifada” likely wouldn’t be) and actionable which it definitely isn’t. It would need to be proven that the people making the speech had the intent of directly or indirectly harming the people they had targeted. All this discussion does is prove that there’s nuance to the question and that it’s not black and white which is exactly why I believe it was a dishonest question to begin with.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > speech itself is protected unless it’s targeted It's First Amendment protected. Universities have a long track record of having policies more restrictive than that.
  - dpkonofa 3y ago
    Yes and that’s a direct quote from Gay during the hearing - “Gay, in her testimony, said such speech can be a violation of the school’s policies “depending on the context” if it is “targeted at an individual.””
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      Which is mincemeat of an answer. Plenty of hate speech is banned on university campuses even when not targeted at an indi vidual.
      - dpkonofa 3y ago
        That’s irrelevant unless you have examples of this being the case at Harvard.
        3y ago

someuser2345 3y ago

What do you mean "Harvard allows the Westboro Church"? Harvard has no power over the church.

dpkonofa 3y ago
Westboro Baptist is allowed to protest at Harvard graduations based on the university’s policies. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/12/2/harvard-protest-westboro-time/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/12/2/harvard-protest...
- someuser2345 3y ago
  Based on that article, it doesn't sound like Harvard is allowing them, it sounds like they have no power to stop them, since they're protesting near Harvard.
  - dpkonofa 3y ago
    They are allowed on campus. Harvard is a private school and can ask anyone to leave the campus for any reason.

haberman 3y ago

> It is a hard question to answer because the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. The question isn’t black and white. If you support free speech, you have to support objectionable speech that you disagree with, unless it moves from being speech to being targeted or actionable. This is a great philosophy. I only wish Harvard had thought to embrace it prior to last October, instead of coming in dead last on FIRE's free speech index: https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-fires-college-free-speech-rankings https://www.thefire.org/news/harvard-gets-worst-score-ever-f... I hope that this experience will lead Harvard to actually commit to a free speech culture across the board. But I am admittedly pessimistic that any kind of consistent application of these principles will result.

dpkonofa 3y ago
FIRE's free speech index is hardly definitive. It asks students about how they feel, not about actual, verifiable support from the school. The survey uses questions like "Would you be opposed to a speaker with x view coming to campus to speak" and then base the results on how the students responded, not based on whether or not the school actually restricted students' speech. Additionally, disinvitations are measured as well despite not being examples of student speech being censored. Harvard clearly scored poorly but it seems like they only scored poorly because the students aren't ok with viewpoints that are non-inclusive or borderline hate speech. It has nothing to do with the school's policies or positions on free speech and what is or isn't allowed.
- haberman 3y ago
  The survey does not ask "Would you be opposed...?" It asks: > Student groups often invite speakers to campus to express their views on a range of topics. Regardless of your own views on the topic, should your school ALLOW or NOT ALLOW a speaker on campus who promotes the following idea? Someone who truly supports free speech would say "ALLOW" even if they themselves personally disagree with the speech. Students at Harvard apparently do not. Additionally, the survey asks students whether they support suppressing speech via deplatforming or violence, and whether they believe that the administration would defend the rights of speakers when controversy arises. The questions can be found on page 76 of this PDF: https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2023/09/CFSR%202024_final_updated.pdf https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2023/09/CFSR%202... > Additionally, disinvitations are measured as well despite not being examples of student speech being censored. A second ago you said that free speech covers the Westboro Baptist Church coming on campus. Now it only applies to students? If someone is being disinvited, presumably someone invited them to begin with, whether students or faculty.

eli_gottlieb 3y ago

> the school has a policy of allowing and supporting free speech. No they don't!

dpkonofa 3y ago
They literally have a policy that allows students to say things that are considered objectionable and, unless you have examples where they've violated that (disinvitations are not censorship of student speech as the invites are external), you'll need to do better than just "No they don't!".

iteratethis 3y ago

It doesn't have such policy. It's the lowest ranking university with a free speech score of 0. ZERO.

dpkonofa 3y ago
It does. FIRE asks students how they feel about free speech. It has nothing to do with what actions schools have actually taken and what their policies are.