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Of course. Tommorow they will be dead, and we will be the one paying the bill Congrats on their generation. They deeply convinced me that democracy is one of t

by malka 3y ago

Of course. Tommorow they will be dead, and we will be the one paying the bill Congrats on their generation. They deeply convinced me that democracy is one of the worst systems.

maxwell 3y ago
What's a better system?
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Wait for it...
- kybernetyk 3y ago
  [flagged]
- malka 3y ago
  Technocracy.
- slices 3y ago
  roman empire
- j4yav 3y ago
  A council of highly upvoted HN commenters
toolz 3y ago
You should pick any index/ranking you find modestly convincing and ask yourself which of the bottom 50, i.e. least democratic countries you would rather live in when compared to any one single top 10, most democratic country. Democracy has its problems like any other system with imperfect components, but that doesn't mean it isn't the best system we've discovered.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Go back 150 years when many of todays western countries were monarchies and ask yourself the same question again.
  - toolz 3y ago
    Sure, and the answer is similar - the best system we had is evidenced by the best outcomes. Countries with monarchies had the best outcomes so we can conclude from the data that the best system discovered and utilized at the time was monarchy. If we're not using empirical data to rank these systems, I'm not sure what else we could use to gain any confidence.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  I don't think that's a good argument. "Democracy" has been implemented in various forms, one of which is what the US has, where some people have less representation than others, e.g. senate, house seats, electoral college. What they are expressing is not that we should not have democracy either.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    The US was specifically designed as a Republic and those institutions you mention specifically designed to be anti-democratic. Democracies are subject to mob rule and historically unstable, republicanism adds a layer of stability and a check on majority rule.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      And those "institutions" are clearly working /s. These institutions exist to avoid relinquishing power to the people and their will, but of course we label democracy as "mob rule" when it doesn't suite us. Tyranny of those born in a different place! Democracy has been historically unstable except for all the cases that it has been. The house has achieved lots last session!
benrutter 3y ago
Hey, please don't give up on democracy! Assuming you're in the US, that is one version of democracy that favours a two party system, but there are lots of others in the world! Countries with more coalition governments have very different looking democracies to that in the USA. Besides that, the US (and all countries) have a lot going on that isn't just their voting systems. I.e. capitalisism, regulations or lack thereof, other existing power structures etc This world has a bunch of scary problems, but I really feel (and I think the evidence shows) that we need more representation to solve them, not less!
- malka 3y ago
  I Live in UE, and democraties here sucks too. This is not an US only issue.
  - benrutter 3y ago
    I didn't mean to make out it was! But what democracy means seems to vary place by place so I figured it was helpful to at least make an explicit assumption. I'm not trying to sell anyone on a "everything is rosy" outlook, but I think its important to question whether the problem is democracy itself. I.e.: - Do you think democracy is bad because it's not representative enough? That sounds like you think the problem is that we need our systems to be more democratic? - Do you think democracy is bad because democratic countries have huge political problems? What makes you assume democracy is the cause of those problems? Most democratic countries are also capitalist, religous, have laws, etc. Are those things bad too? Don't get me wrong, its important to point out how our systems aren't working for us. But taking a blanket "democracy is bad" attitude is probably going to lead to the things your disenfranchised with becoming much much worse.
cassianoleal 3y ago
Now it’s time to convince you that “western” representative democracy is not the end-all and be-all of democratic systems. Democracy means the people have the power. The electoral and representative system most countries have in place in more or less the same way is a rough first stab at that.
- malka 3y ago
  > Democracy means the people have the power. That is the issue. My country is riddled by old person, who do not give a single fuck about the future beyond their own grave.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Please re-read the first sentence in the post you replied to.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  It's a well known adage that democracy is the worst system of government, but the alternatives are worse. A lot of countries are moving towards autocracy at the moment, using democracy as a means to keep the people quiet - "you voted for this", "sorry your side lost but we live in a democracy and you should accept defeat gracefully", that kinda thing. The illusion of choice is very overt in countries like Russia (where the opposition is removed) and the US (where the choice is often based on populism or the lesser of two evils or the opposition to what is the current status quo). There's also the illusion of voting for a party that represents your interests; in my own country of NL we had voting last year, a lot of people were cynical because in previous elections, the chosen parties quickly compromised on their own party program because they wanted to be part of the coalition.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    > It's a well known adage that democracy is the worst system of government, but the alternatives are worse. That doesn't make it true. In any case, I believe democracy is desired. I don't believe it's achieved in very meaningful ways with this model of representative democracy most countries implement.
zer0zzz 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and please especially don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 3y ago
Please do not post flamewar comments to HN, and especially not generational flamewar, which should be particularly easy to avoid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

by malka 3y ago

Of course. Tommorow they will be dead, and we will be the one paying the bill Congrats on their generation. They deeply convinced me that democracy is one of the worst systems.

maxwell 3y ago

What's a better system?

worthless-trash 3y ago
Wait for it...
kybernetyk 3y ago
[flagged]
malka 3y ago
Technocracy.
slices 3y ago
roman empire
j4yav 3y ago
A council of highly upvoted HN commenters

toolz 3y ago

You should pick any index/ranking you find modestly convincing and ask yourself which of the bottom 50, i.e. least democratic countries you would rather live in when compared to any one single top 10, most democratic country. Democracy has its problems like any other system with imperfect components, but that doesn't mean it isn't the best system we've discovered.

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
Go back 150 years when many of todays western countries were monarchies and ask yourself the same question again.
- toolz 3y ago
  Sure, and the answer is similar - the best system we had is evidenced by the best outcomes. Countries with monarchies had the best outcomes so we can conclude from the data that the best system discovered and utilized at the time was monarchy. If we're not using empirical data to rank these systems, I'm not sure what else we could use to gain any confidence.
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
I don't think that's a good argument. "Democracy" has been implemented in various forms, one of which is what the US has, where some people have less representation than others, e.g. senate, house seats, electoral college. What they are expressing is not that we should not have democracy either.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  The US was specifically designed as a Republic and those institutions you mention specifically designed to be anti-democratic. Democracies are subject to mob rule and historically unstable, republicanism adds a layer of stability and a check on majority rule.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    And those "institutions" are clearly working /s. These institutions exist to avoid relinquishing power to the people and their will, but of course we label democracy as "mob rule" when it doesn't suite us. Tyranny of those born in a different place! Democracy has been historically unstable except for all the cases that it has been. The house has achieved lots last session!

benrutter 3y ago

Hey, please don't give up on democracy! Assuming you're in the US, that is one version of democracy that favours a two party system, but there are lots of others in the world! Countries with more coalition governments have very different looking democracies to that in the USA. Besides that, the US (and all countries) have a lot going on that isn't just their voting systems. I.e. capitalisism, regulations or lack thereof, other existing power structures etc This world has a bunch of scary problems, but I really feel (and I think the evidence shows) that we need more representation to solve them, not less!

malka 3y ago
I Live in UE, and democraties here sucks too. This is not an US only issue.
- benrutter 3y ago
  I didn't mean to make out it was! But what democracy means seems to vary place by place so I figured it was helpful to at least make an explicit assumption. I'm not trying to sell anyone on a "everything is rosy" outlook, but I think its important to question whether the problem is democracy itself. I.e.: - Do you think democracy is bad because it's not representative enough? That sounds like you think the problem is that we need our systems to be more democratic? - Do you think democracy is bad because democratic countries have huge political problems? What makes you assume democracy is the cause of those problems? Most democratic countries are also capitalist, religous, have laws, etc. Are those things bad too? Don't get me wrong, its important to point out how our systems aren't working for us. But taking a blanket "democracy is bad" attitude is probably going to lead to the things your disenfranchised with becoming much much worse.

cassianoleal 3y ago

Now it’s time to convince you that “western” representative democracy is not the end-all and be-all of democratic systems. Democracy means the people have the power. The electoral and representative system most countries have in place in more or less the same way is a rough first stab at that.

malka 3y ago
> Democracy means the people have the power. That is the issue. My country is riddled by old person, who do not give a single fuck about the future beyond their own grave.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  Please re-read the first sentence in the post you replied to.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
It's a well known adage that democracy is the worst system of government, but the alternatives are worse. A lot of countries are moving towards autocracy at the moment, using democracy as a means to keep the people quiet - "you voted for this", "sorry your side lost but we live in a democracy and you should accept defeat gracefully", that kinda thing. The illusion of choice is very overt in countries like Russia (where the opposition is removed) and the US (where the choice is often based on populism or the lesser of two evils or the opposition to what is the current status quo). There's also the illusion of voting for a party that represents your interests; in my own country of NL we had voting last year, a lot of people were cynical because in previous elections, the chosen parties quickly compromised on their own party program because they wanted to be part of the coalition.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  > It's a well known adage that democracy is the worst system of government, but the alternatives are worse. That doesn't make it true. In any case, I believe democracy is desired. I don't believe it's achieved in very meaningful ways with this model of representative democracy most countries implement.

zer0zzz 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and please especially don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 3y ago

Please do not post flamewar comments to HN, and especially not generational flamewar, which should be particularly easy to avoid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]