6 ms·

The college system in the US works well. The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). Th

by smt88 3y ago

The college system in the US works well. The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
elliotec 3y ago
I don’t think so. > As of 2023, approximately 44 million Americans carry student loan debt, with the total student loan debt in the United States reaching $1.76 trillion according to the Federal Reserve. This figure includes both federal and private student loans. It's notable that the number of people with federal student loans is around 43.4 million, and there are about 3.5 million private student loan borrowers, leading to a total of around 46.9 million American adults with a student loan. The average student loan debt in the United States as of 2023 is approximately $37,645 per borrower. This figure represents the average amount owed by those carrying federal student loan debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statistics-average-student-loan-debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statist... https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Average? Mean? Median?
  - elliotec 3y ago
    Average, eg mean.
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  [dead]
- leereeves 3y ago
  That average is the mean (we can tell because it roughly equals $1.76 trillion divided by 46.9 million borrowers). The mean is notorious for being affected by outliers, that is, the few borrowers like doctors who owe tremendous sums. (As GP says, "the nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority") If 90% of borrowers only owed $10k each, and the other 10% owed 210k each, the average would be $30k per borrower. In fact, if 90% of borrowers only owed 1k each, and 10% owed 300k each, the average would still be over $30k. Edit: According to the census, the median student loan debt is slightly under $20k, which certainly seems like an amount that people can pay off. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-weighed-heavily-on-millions-even-before-pandemic.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-...
  - elliotec 3y ago
    The median amount of education debt in 2021 among those with any outstanding debt for their own education was between $20,000 and $24,999. This reflects the central tendency of student loan debts, providing a perspective less influenced by extreme high or low values compared to the average debt amount. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2021-student-loans.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-we...
    - leereeves 3y ago
      Yeah, I just added a similar figure to my post. To me, that seems consistent with "very little debt" as discussed above. It's less than the cost of an economy car, for an education that increases average lifetime earnings by over a million dollars.
      - shkkmo 3y ago
        That's the current debt load, not the debt load graduated with nor the amount that will end up paid over the lifetime of the debt. Even so, calling a 5 figure debt load "very little" is flat out ridiculous.
- gumby 3y ago
  I think those figures support the GP's "small, vocal minority" argument. Assuming students carry their debt for 45 years (across their earning lifetime -- my gf and her ex both carry student debt in their 50s) that's only 1 MM students per annum, which is 5-6% of the number of students any given year. And most of them aren't complaining.
  - wand3r 3y ago
    Working for an international company has really opened my eyes. It's actually fucking insane that someone could be paying off school in their 50s. The cast majority of European schools are in the single digit thousands per semester. The US needs to immediately allow tuition to be discharged in bankruptcy which would at least fix some of the copious problems with our higher education system.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >Assuming students carry their debt for 45 years I don't think that's common. I especially don't think it was common ~45 years ago.
    - recursive 3y ago
      It's a totally bonkers assumption. If it was true, it seems to support a slightly different version of the same point. A 45 year loan on education doesn't seem like the result of a successful system.
      - gumby 3y ago
        Well my n is small. Tenured faculty at Stanford, still paying after 30 y and unlikely to pay off in next decade (note: not in CS, Economics, or business which pay the big bucks). Have heard other faculty discuss this at dinner parties too. I graduated 35 years ago and back then was able to pay my MIT tuition by consulting over the summer + January. CS of course during the AI boom. Doubt that’s possible today. I think the financing of education in the US is absurd and broken, but there is some logic to spreading the financing of an asset over the lifetime of the asset.
- xvedejas 3y ago
  I held a similar level of student loan debt, and it was worth it. My earnings are much larger thanks to the degree it enabled me to pursue, and I was able to pay it off early. While I don't think the system is ideal, just the existence of student debt isn't indicative of an issue, we'd need to look at statistics around what proportion of borrowers have undue hardship as a result.
  - taurath 3y ago
    Personally I don’t think it’s ideal that people who are going into less lucrative but still incredibly important societal roles should have to give up the ability to have basic needs like stable housing met because the cost of getting into those roles preclude the ability to meet basic needs.
    - xvedejas 3y ago
      I am not sure if you're in agreement or not, but yes, loans help access things that cost money (like basic needs) in the case that earnings are deferred due to education. Student loans generally require no payments until 6 months after education ends.
      - taurath 3y ago
        Right but it’s also debt that doesn’t need to be incurred, which puts people way behind the starting line, especially when the student loans come due and people can’t afford to pay for a house
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    Doing things like making it so student debt isn’t dischargeable in bankruptcy effectively creates a market for more credit than would exist otherwise. Student debt should at least be held to the same standards as regular debt.
alistairSH 3y ago
All true, however the amount of student loan debt (in total) is still a staggering amount. And while state colleges have sticker prices well below those of privates, the pricey private schools are more likely to discount tuition. So students have to guess at where they’ll get the most aid/discount (most schools do a decent job getting these figures to prospects, but you have to apply to get them). IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  > IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared. The price of a used car is more transparent than US universities. I think the main comparison for the cost of going to college is more similar to the cost of going to the emergency room. You get individual bills coming in from every doctor and nurse that gave a sideways glance at your X-Ray. Likewise with a university they talk about the price of tuition, and oh wait you're too far from home and need a place to stay? And you're under 26 years old? Going to need to spend another $10k per semester for staying in a dorm. You'll need food passes and parking passes. You'll need books and everything.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Food and accomodation shouldn’t be a surprise cost, as it wouldn’t be if you buy plane tickets to Thailand. Is there any real gotcha costs that you only find out later?
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      Book cost is highly variable. And not remotely affordable.
    - starttoaster 3y ago
      Food is not really a surprise cost. Accommodation is surprising with how much it costs considering you're basically staying in an tenement home with people stacked on top of each other.
ttymck 3y ago
Source?
burnte 3y ago
> The college system in the US works well. From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. But overall our schools are world class. It's the money side that's a wreck. > The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt. This is just the exact opposite of the truth, with literally no room for interpretation. The vast majority of students graduate with debt, the number is about 64%. Average debt from non-profit schools is about $35k of debt, and about $60k of debt from for-profit colleges. This is two thirds of students, and the amount rivals car loans, which are NOT insignificant.
- TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
  > The college system in the US works well. > > From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. The point of this is to help round out an education. I started and finished my college career as a science student, but in the middle I switched to humanities. I witnessed an extraordinary difference in the ability to clearly articulate ideas between those areas which really highlighted for me the value in requiring a curriculum beyond just a student’s chosen major.
  - burnte 3y ago
    That's one argument, another is they're filler to make people think paying huge sums is reasonable for what they get. If these classes were teste for and only given to those who need it, I could believe it was for student enrichment. This is rarely the real case, and many administrators will admit it.
atmavatar 3y ago
> The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). I wonder if that's really true for state schools anymore. The two state universities in Kansas (LCOL state) quote ~10-12K annually for in-state tuition alone (KSU: https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/undergraduate.html https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/unde..., KU: https://admissions.ku.edu/costs https://admissions.ku.edu/costs). I can't imagine many (if any) states charging significantly less than that. When you add room and board, food, books, and all the extra hidden fees tacked onto tuition, you're closing in on ~20-25k. Students aren't getting out of that without debt unless they have a sizable nest egg saved up beforehand and/or work a decent number of hours throughout their school life. And, while it's certainly doable for an individual to make it through school without debt, there aren't enough decently-paid seasonal jobs around said schools for even a majority of students to follow suit. It used to be significantly cheaper when I got my BS ~20 years ago, but a push by Republicans to make student loans non-dischargeable in 2005 (see https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256) along with significant cuts to Kansas spending on education tripled tuition shortly after I graduated.

by smt88 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

elliotec 3y ago

I don’t think so. > As of 2023, approximately 44 million Americans carry student loan debt, with the total student loan debt in the United States reaching $1.76 trillion according to the Federal Reserve. This figure includes both federal and private student loans. It's notable that the number of people with federal student loans is around 43.4 million, and there are about 3.5 million private student loan borrowers, leading to a total of around 46.9 million American adults with a student loan. The average student loan debt in the United States as of 2023 is approximately $37,645 per borrower. This figure represents the average amount owed by those carrying federal student loan debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statistics-average-student-loan-debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statist... https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics

Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Average? Mean? Median?
- elliotec 3y ago
  Average, eg mean.
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
leereeves 3y ago
That average is the mean (we can tell because it roughly equals $1.76 trillion divided by 46.9 million borrowers). The mean is notorious for being affected by outliers, that is, the few borrowers like doctors who owe tremendous sums. (As GP says, "the nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority") If 90% of borrowers only owed $10k each, and the other 10% owed 210k each, the average would be $30k per borrower. In fact, if 90% of borrowers only owed 1k each, and 10% owed 300k each, the average would still be over $30k. Edit: According to the census, the median student loan debt is slightly under $20k, which certainly seems like an amount that people can pay off. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-weighed-heavily-on-millions-even-before-pandemic.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-...
- elliotec 3y ago
  The median amount of education debt in 2021 among those with any outstanding debt for their own education was between $20,000 and $24,999. This reflects the central tendency of student loan debts, providing a perspective less influenced by extreme high or low values compared to the average debt amount. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2021-student-loans.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-we...
  - leereeves 3y ago
    Yeah, I just added a similar figure to my post. To me, that seems consistent with "very little debt" as discussed above. It's less than the cost of an economy car, for an education that increases average lifetime earnings by over a million dollars.
    - shkkmo 3y ago
      That's the current debt load, not the debt load graduated with nor the amount that will end up paid over the lifetime of the debt. Even so, calling a 5 figure debt load "very little" is flat out ridiculous.
gumby 3y ago
I think those figures support the GP's "small, vocal minority" argument. Assuming students carry their debt for 45 years (across their earning lifetime -- my gf and her ex both carry student debt in their 50s) that's only 1 MM students per annum, which is 5-6% of the number of students any given year. And most of them aren't complaining.
- wand3r 3y ago
  Working for an international company has really opened my eyes. It's actually fucking insane that someone could be paying off school in their 50s. The cast majority of European schools are in the single digit thousands per semester. The US needs to immediately allow tuition to be discharged in bankruptcy which would at least fix some of the copious problems with our higher education system.
- thfuran 3y ago
  >Assuming students carry their debt for 45 years I don't think that's common. I especially don't think it was common ~45 years ago.
  - recursive 3y ago
    It's a totally bonkers assumption. If it was true, it seems to support a slightly different version of the same point. A 45 year loan on education doesn't seem like the result of a successful system.
    - gumby 3y ago
      Well my n is small. Tenured faculty at Stanford, still paying after 30 y and unlikely to pay off in next decade (note: not in CS, Economics, or business which pay the big bucks). Have heard other faculty discuss this at dinner parties too. I graduated 35 years ago and back then was able to pay my MIT tuition by consulting over the summer + January. CS of course during the AI boom. Doubt that’s possible today. I think the financing of education in the US is absurd and broken, but there is some logic to spreading the financing of an asset over the lifetime of the asset.
xvedejas 3y ago
I held a similar level of student loan debt, and it was worth it. My earnings are much larger thanks to the degree it enabled me to pursue, and I was able to pay it off early. While I don't think the system is ideal, just the existence of student debt isn't indicative of an issue, we'd need to look at statistics around what proportion of borrowers have undue hardship as a result.
- taurath 3y ago
  Personally I don’t think it’s ideal that people who are going into less lucrative but still incredibly important societal roles should have to give up the ability to have basic needs like stable housing met because the cost of getting into those roles preclude the ability to meet basic needs.
  - xvedejas 3y ago
    I am not sure if you're in agreement or not, but yes, loans help access things that cost money (like basic needs) in the case that earnings are deferred due to education. Student loans generally require no payments until 6 months after education ends.
    - taurath 3y ago
      Right but it’s also debt that doesn’t need to be incurred, which puts people way behind the starting line, especially when the student loans come due and people can’t afford to pay for a house
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  Doing things like making it so student debt isn’t dischargeable in bankruptcy effectively creates a market for more credit than would exist otherwise. Student debt should at least be held to the same standards as regular debt.

alistairSH 3y ago

All true, however the amount of student loan debt (in total) is still a staggering amount. And while state colleges have sticker prices well below those of privates, the pricey private schools are more likely to discount tuition. So students have to guess at where they’ll get the most aid/discount (most schools do a decent job getting these figures to prospects, but you have to apply to get them). IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared.

starttoaster 3y ago
> IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared. The price of a used car is more transparent than US universities. I think the main comparison for the cost of going to college is more similar to the cost of going to the emergency room. You get individual bills coming in from every doctor and nurse that gave a sideways glance at your X-Ray. Likewise with a university they talk about the price of tuition, and oh wait you're too far from home and need a place to stay? And you're under 26 years old? Going to need to spend another $10k per semester for staying in a dorm. You'll need food passes and parking passes. You'll need books and everything.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Food and accomodation shouldn’t be a surprise cost, as it wouldn’t be if you buy plane tickets to Thailand. Is there any real gotcha costs that you only find out later?
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    Book cost is highly variable. And not remotely affordable.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    Food is not really a surprise cost. Accommodation is surprising with how much it costs considering you're basically staying in an tenement home with people stacked on top of each other.

ttymck 3y ago

Source?

burnte 3y ago

> The college system in the US works well. From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. But overall our schools are world class. It's the money side that's a wreck. > The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt. This is just the exact opposite of the truth, with literally no room for interpretation. The vast majority of students graduate with debt, the number is about 64%. Average debt from non-profit schools is about $35k of debt, and about $60k of debt from for-profit colleges. This is two thirds of students, and the amount rivals car loans, which are NOT insignificant.

TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
> The college system in the US works well. > > From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. The point of this is to help round out an education. I started and finished my college career as a science student, but in the middle I switched to humanities. I witnessed an extraordinary difference in the ability to clearly articulate ideas between those areas which really highlighted for me the value in requiring a curriculum beyond just a student’s chosen major.
- burnte 3y ago
  That's one argument, another is they're filler to make people think paying huge sums is reasonable for what they get. If these classes were teste for and only given to those who need it, I could believe it was for student enrichment. This is rarely the real case, and many administrators will admit it.

atmavatar 3y ago

> The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). I wonder if that's really true for state schools anymore. The two state universities in Kansas (LCOL state) quote ~10-12K annually for in-state tuition alone (KSU: https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/undergraduate.html https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/unde..., KU: https://admissions.ku.edu/costs https://admissions.ku.edu/costs). I can't imagine many (if any) states charging significantly less than that. When you add room and board, food, books, and all the extra hidden fees tacked onto tuition, you're closing in on ~20-25k. Students aren't getting out of that without debt unless they have a sizable nest egg saved up beforehand and/or work a decent number of hours throughout their school life. And, while it's certainly doable for an individual to make it through school without debt, there aren't enough decently-paid seasonal jobs around said schools for even a majority of students to follow suit. It used to be significantly cheaper when I got my BS ~20 years ago, but a push by Republicans to make student loans non-dischargeable in 2005 (see https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256) along with significant cuts to Kansas spending on education tripled tuition shortly after I graduated.