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> “The original purpose of tuition discounting was to make higher education affordable to low-income students,” Bridgewater president David W. Bushman said in a

by c0balt 3y ago

> “The original purpose of tuition discounting was to make higher education affordable to low-income students,” Bridgewater president David W. Bushman said in a press release explaining the dramatic shift. “But over time, the practice has resulted in higher and higher tuition sticker prices that bear little resemblance to the actual cost of education. This somehow seems inevitable in hindsight. It is quite bizarre, as a German student in university, how the education sector in the U.S. is working acceptable-ish[^1] and yet everytime I read something about it is seems to in some stage of self-imploding for colleges/ universities. It would be interesting to see how this societal issue can be addressed in the longer term. Imoe neither technology alone nor any simple approach will work but it definitely is a great challenge for the future/ present.

smt88 3y ago
The college system in the US works well. The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- elliotec 3y ago
  I don’t think so. > As of 2023, approximately 44 million Americans carry student loan debt, with the total student loan debt in the United States reaching $1.76 trillion according to the Federal Reserve. This figure includes both federal and private student loans. It's notable that the number of people with federal student loans is around 43.4 million, and there are about 3.5 million private student loan borrowers, leading to a total of around 46.9 million American adults with a student loan. The average student loan debt in the United States as of 2023 is approximately $37,645 per borrower. This figure represents the average amount owed by those carrying federal student loan debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statistics-average-student-loan-debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statist... https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics
  - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
    Average? Mean? Median?
    - elliotec 3y ago
      Average, eg mean.
  - oldpersonintx 3y ago
    [dead]
  - leereeves 3y ago
    That average is the mean (we can tell because it roughly equals $1.76 trillion divided by 46.9 million borrowers). The mean is notorious for being affected by outliers, that is, the few borrowers like doctors who owe tremendous sums. (As GP says, "the nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority") If 90% of borrowers only owed $10k each, and the other 10% owed 210k each, the average would be $30k per borrower. In fact, if 90% of borrowers only owed 1k each, and 10% owed 300k each, the average would still be over $30k. Edit: According to the census, the median student loan debt is slightly under $20k, which certainly seems like an amount that people can pay off. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-weighed-heavily-on-millions-even-before-pandemic.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-...
    - elliotec 3y ago
      The median amount of education debt in 2021 among those with any outstanding debt for their own education was between $20,000 and $24,999. This reflects the central tendency of student loan debts, providing a perspective less influenced by extreme high or low values compared to the average debt amount. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2021-student-loans.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-we...
      - leereeves 3y ago
- alistairSH 3y ago
  All true, however the amount of student loan debt (in total) is still a staggering amount. And while state colleges have sticker prices well below those of privates, the pricey private schools are more likely to discount tuition. So students have to guess at where they’ll get the most aid/discount (most schools do a decent job getting these figures to prospects, but you have to apply to get them). IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    > IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared. The price of a used car is more transparent than US universities. I think the main comparison for the cost of going to college is more similar to the cost of going to the emergency room. You get individual bills coming in from every doctor and nurse that gave a sideways glance at your X-Ray. Likewise with a university they talk about the price of tuition, and oh wait you're too far from home and need a place to stay? And you're under 26 years old? Going to need to spend another $10k per semester for staying in a dorm. You'll need food passes and parking passes. You'll need books and everything.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      Food and accomodation shouldn’t be a surprise cost, as it wouldn’t be if you buy plane tickets to Thailand. Is there any real gotcha costs that you only find out later?
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        Book cost is highly variable. And not remotely affordable.
      - starttoaster 3y ago
        Food is not really a surprise cost. Accommodation is surprising with how much it costs considering you're basically staying in an tenement home with people stacked on top of each other.
- ttymck 3y ago
  Source?
- burnte 3y ago
  > The college system in the US works well. From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. But overall our schools are world class. It's the money side that's a wreck. > The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt. This is just the exact opposite of the truth, with literally no room for interpretation. The vast majority of students graduate with debt, the number is about 64%. Average debt from non-profit schools is about $35k of debt, and about $60k of debt from for-profit colleges. This is two thirds of students, and the amount rivals car loans, which are NOT insignificant.
  - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
    > The college system in the US works well. > > From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. The point of this is to help round out an education. I started and finished my college career as a science student, but in the middle I switched to humanities. I witnessed an extraordinary difference in the ability to clearly articulate ideas between those areas which really highlighted for me the value in requiring a curriculum beyond just a student’s chosen major.
    - burnte 3y ago
      That's one argument, another is they're filler to make people think paying huge sums is reasonable for what they get. If these classes were teste for and only given to those who need it, I could believe it was for student enrichment. This is rarely the real case, and many administrators will admit it.
- atmavatar 3y ago
  > The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). I wonder if that's really true for state schools anymore. The two state universities in Kansas (LCOL state) quote ~10-12K annually for in-state tuition alone (KSU: https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/undergraduate.html https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/unde..., KU: https://admissions.ku.edu/costs https://admissions.ku.edu/costs). I can't imagine many (if any) states charging significantly less than that. When you add room and board, food, books, and all the extra hidden fees tacked onto tuition, you're closing in on ~20-25k. Students aren't getting out of that without debt unless they have a sizable nest egg saved up beforehand and/or work a decent number of hours throughout their school life. And, while it's certainly doable for an individual to make it through school without debt, there aren't enough decently-paid seasonal jobs around said schools for even a majority of students to follow suit. It used to be significantly cheaper when I got my BS ~20 years ago, but a push by Republicans to make student loans non-dischargeable in 2005 (see https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256) along with significant cuts to Kansas spending on education tripled tuition shortly after I graduated.
candiodari 3y ago
You don't have to go that far. The education sector in the Netherlands is quite similar, perhaps 5 years or so behind the US.
tmaly 3y ago
I often wonder why we don't provide free university education in the US. It would benefit society and employers as a whole.
- Quillbert182 3y ago
  Some states effectively do. Georgia and Florida will pay full tuition for In-State students with high enough GPAs. Students still have to pay some fees, so it isn’t perfect, but it provides incredible value.
faeriechangling 3y ago
The pricing makes a lot of sense when you consider there’s one price for domestic students and one price for international ones.

by c0balt 3y ago

smt88 3y ago

The college system in the US works well. The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
elliotec 3y ago
I don’t think so. > As of 2023, approximately 44 million Americans carry student loan debt, with the total student loan debt in the United States reaching $1.76 trillion according to the Federal Reserve. This figure includes both federal and private student loans. It's notable that the number of people with federal student loans is around 43.4 million, and there are about 3.5 million private student loan borrowers, leading to a total of around 46.9 million American adults with a student loan. The average student loan debt in the United States as of 2023 is approximately $37,645 per borrower. This figure represents the average amount owed by those carrying federal student loan debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statistics-average-student-loan-debt https://www.studentloanplanner.com/student-loan-debt-statist... https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics https://www.finder.com/student-loan-debt-statistics
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Average? Mean? Median?
  - elliotec 3y ago
    Average, eg mean.
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  [dead]
- leereeves 3y ago
  That average is the mean (we can tell because it roughly equals $1.76 trillion divided by 46.9 million borrowers). The mean is notorious for being affected by outliers, that is, the few borrowers like doctors who owe tremendous sums. (As GP says, "the nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority") If 90% of borrowers only owed $10k each, and the other 10% owed 210k each, the average would be $30k per borrower. In fact, if 90% of borrowers only owed 1k each, and 10% owed 300k each, the average would still be over $30k. Edit: According to the census, the median student loan debt is slightly under $20k, which certainly seems like an amount that people can pay off. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-weighed-heavily-on-millions-even-before-pandemic.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/student-debt-...
  - elliotec 3y ago
    The median amount of education debt in 2021 among those with any outstanding debt for their own education was between $20,000 and $24,999. This reflects the central tendency of student loan debts, providing a perspective less influenced by extreme high or low values compared to the average debt amount. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2021-student-loans.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2022-economic-we...
    - leereeves 3y ago
alistairSH 3y ago
All true, however the amount of student loan debt (in total) is still a staggering amount. And while state colleges have sticker prices well below those of privates, the pricey private schools are more likely to discount tuition. So students have to guess at where they’ll get the most aid/discount (most schools do a decent job getting these figures to prospects, but you have to apply to get them). IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  > IMO, “shopping” for college shouldn’t be anything like buying a used car. The prices should be affordable and publicly shared. The price of a used car is more transparent than US universities. I think the main comparison for the cost of going to college is more similar to the cost of going to the emergency room. You get individual bills coming in from every doctor and nurse that gave a sideways glance at your X-Ray. Likewise with a university they talk about the price of tuition, and oh wait you're too far from home and need a place to stay? And you're under 26 years old? Going to need to spend another $10k per semester for staying in a dorm. You'll need food passes and parking passes. You'll need books and everything.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Food and accomodation shouldn’t be a surprise cost, as it wouldn’t be if you buy plane tickets to Thailand. Is there any real gotcha costs that you only find out later?
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      Book cost is highly variable. And not remotely affordable.
    - starttoaster 3y ago
      Food is not really a surprise cost. Accommodation is surprising with how much it costs considering you're basically staying in an tenement home with people stacked on top of each other.
ttymck 3y ago
Source?
burnte 3y ago
> The college system in the US works well. From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. But overall our schools are world class. It's the money side that's a wreck. > The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). The nightmare stories you hear are about the small, vocal minority that go to expensive private schools and/or major in something that doesn't pay well (like theatre) and/or get Masters degrees that put them in debt. This is just the exact opposite of the truth, with literally no room for interpretation. The vast majority of students graduate with debt, the number is about 64%. Average debt from non-profit schools is about $35k of debt, and about $60k of debt from for-profit colleges. This is two thirds of students, and the amount rivals car loans, which are NOT insignificant.
- TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
  > The college system in the US works well. > > From an educational standpoint, this is arguable, as most students are forced to take classes unrelated to their area of study simply to fill out a the credit requirements. The point of this is to help round out an education. I started and finished my college career as a science student, but in the middle I switched to humanities. I witnessed an extraordinary difference in the ability to clearly articulate ideas between those areas which really highlighted for me the value in requiring a curriculum beyond just a student’s chosen major.
  - burnte 3y ago
    That's one argument, another is they're filler to make people think paying huge sums is reasonable for what they get. If these classes were teste for and only given to those who need it, I could believe it was for student enrichment. This is rarely the real case, and many administrators will admit it.
atmavatar 3y ago
> The vast majority of students go to community colleges or public schools and end up with very little debt (if any). I wonder if that's really true for state schools anymore. The two state universities in Kansas (LCOL state) quote ~10-12K annually for in-state tuition alone (KSU: https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/undergraduate.html https://www.k-state.edu/sfa/cost/manhattan-campus-costs/unde..., KU: https://admissions.ku.edu/costs https://admissions.ku.edu/costs). I can't imagine many (if any) states charging significantly less than that. When you add room and board, food, books, and all the extra hidden fees tacked onto tuition, you're closing in on ~20-25k. Students aren't getting out of that without debt unless they have a sizable nest egg saved up beforehand and/or work a decent number of hours throughout their school life. And, while it's certainly doable for an individual to make it through school without debt, there aren't enough decently-paid seasonal jobs around said schools for even a majority of students to follow suit. It used to be significantly cheaper when I got my BS ~20 years ago, but a push by Republicans to make student loans non-dischargeable in 2005 (see https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256) along with significant cuts to Kansas spending on education tripled tuition shortly after I graduated.

candiodari 3y ago

You don't have to go that far. The education sector in the Netherlands is quite similar, perhaps 5 years or so behind the US.

tmaly 3y ago

I often wonder why we don't provide free university education in the US. It would benefit society and employers as a whole.

Quillbert182 3y ago
Some states effectively do. Georgia and Florida will pay full tuition for In-State students with high enough GPAs. Students still have to pay some fees, so it isn’t perfect, but it provides incredible value.

faeriechangling 3y ago

The pricing makes a lot of sense when you consider there’s one price for domestic students and one price for international ones.