26 ms·

WWII heroics of 'Bazooka Charlie' doubted until daughter sets record straight

120 points by alehlopeh 3y ago

Nexxxeh 3y ago
[flagged]
ilamont 3y ago
There was a story from the Vietnam War which sounds totally outlandish - a damaged USAF jet pushing another damaged jet via its tailhook (pressed up against a glass windshield of the pusher) as it leaked fuel and was in danger of crashing in enemy territory. But the account is real, despite sounding so improbable. https://theaviationgeekclub.com/pardos-push-how-an-f-4-pushed-a-crippled-f-4-to-safety/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/pardos-push-how-an-f-4-pushe... For WW2 air crews, I believe gun cameras were standard in many aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_camera), but for an ad hoc weapon like the one described in the article it would less likely, which makes witness accounts or other evidence so important. My grandfather was in a US Navy salvage group in WWII. At the time, to verify an enemy vessel (especially subs) were sunk, they would send down divers in the old fashioned "heavy gear" suits to identify the vessels. They would also bring up proof, usually something that could be tied to the vessel, which could be a piece of military-grade equipment or even silverware engraved with the name of the ship. This is what the suits looked like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_diving_dress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_diving_dress
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > At the time, to verify an enemy vessel (especially subs) were sunk, they would send down divers in the old fashioned "heavy gear" suits to identify the vessels. Just hope you don't sink someone over the Mariana Trench.
- globalise83 3y ago
  Your grandpa probably saw some REALLY unnerving sights down there. I shudder to think about it.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  I doubt there were gun cameras installed on B-17s because: 1. I've seen a lot of WW2 aviation footage, and none appeared to be from B-17s. 2. The combat footage that exists for B-17s was shot(!) for the "Memphis Belle" documentary, and some footage for it left on the cutting room floor. This was filmed by a camera crew going along for the ride on several missions. Memphis Belle footage appears in countless WW2 documentaries. 3. My dad flew 32 missions in one and never mentioned gun cameras, though he did talk about them when he flew ground attack missions in the Korean War. I have a couple of them from his airplane that the military didn't want.
  - danielvf 3y ago
    Gun cameras on B-17's might have been a late war thing? Here's a photo of some B-17 crew members with new gun cameras in 1945: https://www.superstock.com/asset/crew-members-rd-bomb-group-check-machine-gun-camera-which/6145-48935277 https://www.superstock.com/asset/crew-members-rd-bomb-group-... The B-29's and B-26's were built from the factory with gun camera fixtures in their turrets as well. That said, I've hard a hard time finding any footage from a B17.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      Interesting. The photo was in March, 1945, just before the end of the war. My dad's tour ended in late summer 1944.
- pdonis 3y ago
  Wikipedia also has an article on Pardo's Push: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo%27s_Push https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo%27s_Push The article addresses a point that occurred to me when reading the Aviation Geek Club article: Air Force planes didn't land on carriers, so why would they have a tail hook? But according to the Wikipedia article, all F-4s were built with tail hooks since the plane was originally designed for the Navy and Marines and was not redesigned when the Air Force started using it.
  - throwup238 3y ago
    The titular Bob Pardo passed away a few weeks ago. RIP o' brave airman!
  - FredPret 3y ago
    What a crazy thing! Weird that he died a couple of weeks ago. But what a pilot.
  - thedrbrian 3y ago
    >The article addresses a point that occurred to me when reading the Aviation Geek Club article: Air Force planes didn't land on carriers, so why would they have a tail hook? Loads of air force aircraft have tail hooks ,they're used to stop the aircraft in an emergency https://www.quora.com/Why-do-F16s-have-tail-hooks-even-though-they-dont-operate-from-carriers https://www.quora.com/Why-do-F16s-have-tail-hooks-even-thoug...
    - pdonis 3y ago
      > they're used to stop the aircraft in an emergency Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that they have arresting gear on many runways for emergency use.
  - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
    Some air force planes have tail hooks for landing with emergency arrestor gear on land.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Please also appreciate that as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, you live and breathe these stories day and they out because they are real and absolutely insane. They are also taught as the types of things expected of us as military officers. Worth reading about some of the insanity that Lt Lance Sijan went through before his
- flir 3y ago
  Riffing off the diving suit link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(diver) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(diver)
- nradov 3y ago
  While it might have happened in a few rare circumstances, I guarantee that most enemy vessel sinkings were never verified by divers. The wrecks tended to be too deep for divers to reach regardless of equipment. During the war, divers were needed for more urgent taskings including salvage, construction, and maintenance. Instead US submarines documented evidence of sinkings using a variety of other techniques. They had cameras attached to periscopes and for use on the bridge when surfaced. They could hear breakup noises on the hydrophones. And when possible they would pick up small pieces of floating wreckage. Errors were common. After the war there was a major effort to reconcile sinking claims. The committee relied largely on seized enemy documents to verify what had actually been sunk and how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army%E2%80%93Navy_Assessment_Committee?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army%E2%80%93Navy_Assess...
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
That's a great story. I liked hearing about his daughter. My father was affected by PTSD. He never treated it, and I think he never recovered. He was a war hero, and is buried in Arlington[0]. I have another friend who is a Vietnam vet (and also a decorated hero), and treated his PTSD. The difference is night and day. My father was quiet, and never talked about the war. We're still not sure what earned him his stars. My friend has absolutely no problem talking about his action. He's not boastful, but it doesn't bother him to talk about it. [0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm
- livinginfear 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing that link, and your story. Your father led an extraordinary life.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  PTSD is under treated if you can actually believe it. I only recently realized I had it and just had decades of coping mechanisms. So there’s often a lot to unpack especially with high performing people before you can even start looking at it.
WalterBright 3y ago
What a great story! Glad it has been preserved.
eszed 3y ago
What a cool story! I just bought the book referred to in the article. Won't link, but search for "Bazooka Charlie" on an online book seller site. I'll give it to my dad when I finish it.
vasco 3y ago
People online will prove that all kinds of things would never be possible, come up with explanations of why pictures are doctored or videos edited or CGI'ed, even calculate based on physics, and it has happened to me more than once that they could convince me of the impossibility of things I've witnessed myself. Tells you something about what we think we know about history.
bvan 3y ago
Such a neat story.
tetris11 3y ago
it's a really nice story, though the last few paragraphs really read like it was finished off with ChatGPT. Yes, yes, please don't lost such things, it detracts from the discussion...
throw0101a 3y ago
Reminds me Desmond Doss and the movie Hacksaw Ridge: while certain elements were fictionalized for the purposes of telling a story on film, some actual events were left because no one would believe they were real and would come off as too fantastical: > Other changes occur near the end of the film, when Doss is placed on a stretcher. In real life, Doss had another wounded man take his place on the stretcher. After treating the soldier, a sniper shot fractured Doss's arm, and he crawled 300 yards (270 m)[55] to safety after being left alone for five hours.[56] Gibson omitted that from the film because he felt that the audience would not find the scene believable.[57] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksaw_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksaw_Ridge

120 points by alehlopeh 3y ago

[flagged]

There was a story from the Vietnam War which sounds totally outlandish - a damaged USAF jet pushing another damaged jet via its tailhook (pressed up against a glass windshield of the pusher) as it leaked fuel and was in danger of crashing in enemy territory. But the account is real, despite sounding so improbable. https://theaviationgeekclub.com/pardos-push-how-an-f-4-pushed-a-crippled-f-4-to-safety/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/pardos-push-how-an-f-4-pushe... For WW2 air crews, I believe gun cameras were standard in many aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_camera), but for an ad hoc weapon like the one described in the article it would less likely, which makes witness accounts or other evidence so important. My grandfather was in a US Navy salvage group in WWII. At the time, to verify an enemy vessel (especially subs) were sunk, they would send down divers in the old fashioned "heavy gear" suits to identify the vessels. They would also bring up proof, usually something that could be tied to the vessel, which could be a piece of military-grade equipment or even silverware engraved with the name of the ship. This is what the suits looked like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_diving_dress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_diving_dress

ceejayoz 3y ago
> At the time, to verify an enemy vessel (especially subs) were sunk, they would send down divers in the old fashioned "heavy gear" suits to identify the vessels. Just hope you don't sink someone over the Mariana Trench.
globalise83 3y ago
Your grandpa probably saw some REALLY unnerving sights down there. I shudder to think about it.
WalterBright 3y ago
I doubt there were gun cameras installed on B-17s because: 1. I've seen a lot of WW2 aviation footage, and none appeared to be from B-17s. 2. The combat footage that exists for B-17s was shot(!) for the "Memphis Belle" documentary, and some footage for it left on the cutting room floor. This was filmed by a camera crew going along for the ride on several missions. Memphis Belle footage appears in countless WW2 documentaries. 3. My dad flew 32 missions in one and never mentioned gun cameras, though he did talk about them when he flew ground attack missions in the Korean War. I have a couple of them from his airplane that the military didn't want.
- danielvf 3y ago
  Gun cameras on B-17's might have been a late war thing? Here's a photo of some B-17 crew members with new gun cameras in 1945: https://www.superstock.com/asset/crew-members-rd-bomb-group-check-machine-gun-camera-which/6145-48935277 https://www.superstock.com/asset/crew-members-rd-bomb-group-... The B-29's and B-26's were built from the factory with gun camera fixtures in their turrets as well. That said, I've hard a hard time finding any footage from a B17.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Interesting. The photo was in March, 1945, just before the end of the war. My dad's tour ended in late summer 1944.
pdonis 3y ago
Wikipedia also has an article on Pardo's Push: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo%27s_Push https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo%27s_Push The article addresses a point that occurred to me when reading the Aviation Geek Club article: Air Force planes didn't land on carriers, so why would they have a tail hook? But according to the Wikipedia article, all F-4s were built with tail hooks since the plane was originally designed for the Navy and Marines and was not redesigned when the Air Force started using it.
- throwup238 3y ago
  The titular Bob Pardo passed away a few weeks ago. RIP o' brave airman!
- FredPret 3y ago
  What a crazy thing! Weird that he died a couple of weeks ago. But what a pilot.
- thedrbrian 3y ago
  >The article addresses a point that occurred to me when reading the Aviation Geek Club article: Air Force planes didn't land on carriers, so why would they have a tail hook? Loads of air force aircraft have tail hooks ,they're used to stop the aircraft in an emergency https://www.quora.com/Why-do-F16s-have-tail-hooks-even-though-they-dont-operate-from-carriers https://www.quora.com/Why-do-F16s-have-tail-hooks-even-thoug...
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > they're used to stop the aircraft in an emergency Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that they have arresting gear on many runways for emergency use.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
  Some air force planes have tail hooks for landing with emergency arrestor gear on land.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Please also appreciate that as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, you live and breathe these stories day and they out because they are real and absolutely insane. They are also taught as the types of things expected of us as military officers. Worth reading about some of the insanity that Lt Lance Sijan went through before his
flir 3y ago
Riffing off the diving suit link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(diver) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(diver)
nradov 3y ago
While it might have happened in a few rare circumstances, I guarantee that most enemy vessel sinkings were never verified by divers. The wrecks tended to be too deep for divers to reach regardless of equipment. During the war, divers were needed for more urgent taskings including salvage, construction, and maintenance. Instead US submarines documented evidence of sinkings using a variety of other techniques. They had cameras attached to periscopes and for use on the bridge when surfaced. They could hear breakup noises on the hydrophones. And when possible they would pick up small pieces of floating wreckage. Errors were common. After the war there was a major effort to reconcile sinking claims. The committee relied largely on seized enemy documents to verify what had actually been sunk and how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army%E2%80%93Navy_Assessment_Committee?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army%E2%80%93Navy_Assess...

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

That's a great story. I liked hearing about his daughter. My father was affected by PTSD. He never treated it, and I think he never recovered. He was a war hero, and is buried in Arlington[0]. I have another friend who is a Vietnam vet (and also a decorated hero), and treated his PTSD. The difference is night and day. My father was quiet, and never talked about the war. We're still not sure what earned him his stars. My friend has absolutely no problem talking about his action. He's not boastful, but it doesn't bother him to talk about it. [0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm

livinginfear 3y ago
Thank you for sharing that link, and your story. Your father led an extraordinary life.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
PTSD is under treated if you can actually believe it. I only recently realized I had it and just had decades of coping mechanisms. So there’s often a lot to unpack especially with high performing people before you can even start looking at it.

WalterBright 3y ago

What a great story! Glad it has been preserved.

eszed 3y ago

What a cool story! I just bought the book referred to in the article. Won't link, but search for "Bazooka Charlie" on an online book seller site. I'll give it to my dad when I finish it.

vasco 3y ago

People online will prove that all kinds of things would never be possible, come up with explanations of why pictures are doctored or videos edited or CGI'ed, even calculate based on physics, and it has happened to me more than once that they could convince me of the impossibility of things I've witnessed myself. Tells you something about what we think we know about history.

bvan 3y ago

Such a neat story.

tetris11 3y ago

it's a really nice story, though the last few paragraphs really read like it was finished off with ChatGPT. Yes, yes, please don't lost such things, it detracts from the discussion...

throw0101a 3y ago

Reminds me Desmond Doss and the movie Hacksaw Ridge: while certain elements were fictionalized for the purposes of telling a story on film, some actual events were left because no one would believe they were real and would come off as too fantastical: > Other changes occur near the end of the film, when Doss is placed on a stretcher. In real life, Doss had another wounded man take his place on the stretcher. After treating the soldier, a sniper shot fractured Doss's arm, and he crawled 300 yards (270 m)[55] to safety after being left alone for five hours.[56] Gibson omitted that from the film because he felt that the audience would not find the scene believable.[57] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksaw_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksaw_Ridge