5 ms·

Before getting pitchforks out, I'd like to see what this person considered "damaged". If - and I know this is a big if - but if it's something extremely minor,

Before getting pitchforks out, I'd like to see what this person considered "damaged". If - and I know this is a big if - but if it's something extremely minor, such that almost anyone would consider it to be in "like new" condition, then frankly that would be a case of Amazon doing the right thing, rather than pulping a perfectly good book and printing a new one. The fact that this person is apparently not providing any photos of said damage makes this hard to judge (and honestly raises my suspicions a bit). > Of note: if a customer orders a copy from Amazon, and a damaged, returned book is shipped to them instead, no new KDP printing orders kick in. This means I don’t get paid at all, because they only pay me when a book is printed. Why wouldn't this be true? Why would a return that is then resold result in a double royalty payment? Is that something that happens for traditionally-published books that are returned and resold? It might have to do with the fact that these particular books were "author's copies" but I don't have enough information about how those work in a print-on-demand context to know whether this actually results in a loss of royalties in this case. Did they pay for them to be printed as a self publisher or were they provided for free as part of a contract with an external publisher? Does Amazon's internal system distinguish between "author" copies" and other orders, or do you just order some copies of your own book via the standard interface? Would the author's replacement copies go through that same system or would they be printed like normal and incur royalties? No idea.

lepus 3y ago
It's implied that he gets paid 0 times for either the return or the resold book. There's more discussion on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/joabaldwin.com/post/3khrp64a5pw22 https://bsky.app/profile/joabaldwin.com/post/3khrp64a5pw22
- sparky_z 3y ago
  But is that any time a book is returned and resold, or is it just for a few "author's copies" that (I would guess) weren't eligible to receive a royalty in the first place?
  - jxf 3y ago
    He's saying that he got some author's copies from Amazon, some of which he returned for being damaged. Rather than scrap those, Amazon resold the damaged copies as new. This robbed the author of a sale.
- beanjuiceII 3y ago
  why would he get paid other than the initial buy of a book?
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    It sounds like he wasn't paid for the initial buy either.
    - beanjuiceII 3y ago
      where does he say that? if someone buys his books in bulk to sell them, isn't that the initial buy?
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Not if it's a special author's copy with no royalties. It's not completely clear what's going on, maybe returns cause other issues, but he's claiming no royalties from either sale. If he's not just confused that's a big deal.
        joabaldwin 3y ago
        Correct, author copies have no royalties, that’s what I was claiming there. So if Amazon resells those after I return them, it won’t register as a new print. Expanded more on it on another reply to this thread.
beanjuiceII 3y ago
looks like author responded https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741202134845247606 https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741202134845247606 "That’s one page out of 600+, I returned 14 books: one was cut to the wrong size (actually cutting the text, like an inch smaller), others had totally bent covers and pages, others were printed beyond the bleed area (offset too far from the max allowed), or printed at an angle." to me it seems a bit dramatic, if a customer felt that was an issue they'd just get a refund from amazon
ajross 3y ago
It's not even that big an if. Every vendor of every product receives returns. And every vendor of every product has some kind of process for deciding what to do with them. A few product areas have specific regulation, but in general if you get an unused return that is still in new condition you're going to resell it. It's no different for Amazon than your corner bookstore, who does exactly the same thing. Basically this author did a bulk order of his own book from Amazon[1], found something wrong, deliberately returned them and then laid a deliberate trap just to generate exactly this buzz. [1] Pretty weird to begin with. Marketing copies of your own work are normally part of your contract with the publisher. Why is he getting them retail?
- sparky_z 3y ago
  > Marketing copies of your own work are normally part of your contract with the publisher. Why is he getting them retail? Because he's self-publishing. I can't imagine printers would offer that perk to self publishers, because then you just become a free vanity press.
- morsch 3y ago
  Going by the bsky thread posted elsewhere, he's using Kindle Direct Publishing, so he is getting them from his publisher, Amazon. And the books he returned were author copies, sold to him at print cost. https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G7BBN68RYX5UMDZF https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G7BBN68RYX5UMDZF
  - ajross 3y ago
    Then why did he lay this trap? Again, this wasn't an accidental discovery, he knew or suspected he could get this publicity by going to war against his "publisher". I'll be honest, everything about this screams "bad faith" to me. Amazon didn't do anything that any other company wouldn't have done. Arguably-slightly-flawed-but-still-fine returned junk goes on the shelves of every store in the world. This is the only guy who planted bombs in it.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
buro9 3y ago
I received a book that had been written all over, full of notes and scribbles... it was sold as "new". I complained, and they sent another. That too was scribbled all over, notes on every page. The book wasn't that expensive, I was a bit annoyed, but it's a rounding error to me, so I just ordered another thinking no way would this happen again, and because I did need it quicker than I cared to go through the service desk again. The third was also marked on every page. I complained, and they gave a refund for the 2nd one but not the 3rd... all of them were ruined though, none of them could be gifted (which was my intent), and ultimately I just sent it to landfill / recycling / incineration. I keep learning, if I actually care about what I receive I avoid using Amazon. They're fine for some things, but the list of things they're fine for seems to be ever decreasing. All of this was UK btw, YMMV elsewhere and with different categories of goods, etc. Also, when I got the refund, which took about 20 minutes of my time, the tone was weird "congratulations, we're able to offer you a refund today"... this wasn't a prize, it was crappy goods and you weren't even fully setting me good, I dread to think of the number of refunds for obviously damaged goods are not honoured such that this was worthy of congrats.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  And that's just the immediately visible problems. In some product categories it's difficult to find a single product where the description doesn't outright lie about features or quality, and the only way to tell is the price. Louis Rossmann recently tested some of the highest-rated fuses sold on Amazon. It took over 8A to blow a 2A fuse. By now I only order there if I can't find a more local alternative, the only remaining area where Amazon is still ahead (or rather, not behind) are delivery times.
  - nick__m 3y ago
    those are great fuse they don't blow up like the one they replaced! 5 stars, would burn again
  - lebean 3y ago
    Wow, 8A to blow a 2A fuse? That's 4x the value!
cool_dude85 3y ago
>Why would a return that is then resold result in a double royalty payment? This was not marketed as a resold return to the customer, they were told they were buying a new book. It obviously results in a loss of royalties - the customer goes to buy a new book, no new book is printed. Rather, Amazon sends a returned copy, and the author doesn't get the royalty that's paid when a new book is printed.
joabaldwin 3y ago
Feel free to bring out some pitchforks! Here's more info about the damage. https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741484863985770912 https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741484863985770912 I'm calling it "damage" just for simplicity's sake on the note, although some were properly damaged (bent covers, weird creases, etc, although not during shipping since they were surprisingly well packed in this case), while some were miscut/misprinted. Regarding royalties, it's better explained on the reply I posted to the main thread. But I'm still unsure about how that might resolve, but I have the specific order number and will try to get an answer. I have not had time to deal with KDP support yet (will as soon as I get home next week).

lepus 3y ago

It's implied that he gets paid 0 times for either the return or the resold book. There's more discussion on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/joabaldwin.com/post/3khrp64a5pw22 https://bsky.app/profile/joabaldwin.com/post/3khrp64a5pw22

sparky_z 3y ago
But is that any time a book is returned and resold, or is it just for a few "author's copies" that (I would guess) weren't eligible to receive a royalty in the first place?
- jxf 3y ago
  He's saying that he got some author's copies from Amazon, some of which he returned for being damaged. Rather than scrap those, Amazon resold the damaged copies as new. This robbed the author of a sale.
beanjuiceII 3y ago
why would he get paid other than the initial buy of a book?
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  It sounds like he wasn't paid for the initial buy either.
  - beanjuiceII 3y ago
    where does he say that? if someone buys his books in bulk to sell them, isn't that the initial buy?
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Not if it's a special author's copy with no royalties. It's not completely clear what's going on, maybe returns cause other issues, but he's claiming no royalties from either sale. If he's not just confused that's a big deal.
      - joabaldwin 3y ago
        Correct, author copies have no royalties, that’s what I was claiming there. So if Amazon resells those after I return them, it won’t register as a new print. Expanded more on it on another reply to this thread.

beanjuiceII 3y ago

looks like author responded https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741202134845247606 https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741202134845247606 "That’s one page out of 600+, I returned 14 books: one was cut to the wrong size (actually cutting the text, like an inch smaller), others had totally bent covers and pages, others were printed beyond the bleed area (offset too far from the max allowed), or printed at an angle." to me it seems a bit dramatic, if a customer felt that was an issue they'd just get a refund from amazon

ajross 3y ago

It's not even that big an if. Every vendor of every product receives returns. And every vendor of every product has some kind of process for deciding what to do with them. A few product areas have specific regulation, but in general if you get an unused return that is still in new condition you're going to resell it. It's no different for Amazon than your corner bookstore, who does exactly the same thing. Basically this author did a bulk order of his own book from Amazon[1], found something wrong, deliberately returned them and then laid a deliberate trap just to generate exactly this buzz. [1] Pretty weird to begin with. Marketing copies of your own work are normally part of your contract with the publisher. Why is he getting them retail?

sparky_z 3y ago
> Marketing copies of your own work are normally part of your contract with the publisher. Why is he getting them retail? Because he's self-publishing. I can't imagine printers would offer that perk to self publishers, because then you just become a free vanity press.
morsch 3y ago
Going by the bsky thread posted elsewhere, he's using Kindle Direct Publishing, so he is getting them from his publisher, Amazon. And the books he returned were author copies, sold to him at print cost. https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G7BBN68RYX5UMDZF https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G7BBN68RYX5UMDZF
- ajross 3y ago
  Then why did he lay this trap? Again, this wasn't an accidental discovery, he knew or suspected he could get this publicity by going to war against his "publisher". I'll be honest, everything about this screams "bad faith" to me. Amazon didn't do anything that any other company wouldn't have done. Arguably-slightly-flawed-but-still-fine returned junk goes on the shelves of every store in the world. This is the only guy who planted bombs in it.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago

buro9 3y ago

I received a book that had been written all over, full of notes and scribbles... it was sold as "new". I complained, and they sent another. That too was scribbled all over, notes on every page. The book wasn't that expensive, I was a bit annoyed, but it's a rounding error to me, so I just ordered another thinking no way would this happen again, and because I did need it quicker than I cared to go through the service desk again. The third was also marked on every page. I complained, and they gave a refund for the 2nd one but not the 3rd... all of them were ruined though, none of them could be gifted (which was my intent), and ultimately I just sent it to landfill / recycling / incineration. I keep learning, if I actually care about what I receive I avoid using Amazon. They're fine for some things, but the list of things they're fine for seems to be ever decreasing. All of this was UK btw, YMMV elsewhere and with different categories of goods, etc. Also, when I got the refund, which took about 20 minutes of my time, the tone was weird "congratulations, we're able to offer you a refund today"... this wasn't a prize, it was crappy goods and you weren't even fully setting me good, I dread to think of the number of refunds for obviously damaged goods are not honoured such that this was worthy of congrats.

alpaca128 3y ago
And that's just the immediately visible problems. In some product categories it's difficult to find a single product where the description doesn't outright lie about features or quality, and the only way to tell is the price. Louis Rossmann recently tested some of the highest-rated fuses sold on Amazon. It took over 8A to blow a 2A fuse. By now I only order there if I can't find a more local alternative, the only remaining area where Amazon is still ahead (or rather, not behind) are delivery times.
- nick__m 3y ago
  those are great fuse they don't blow up like the one they replaced! 5 stars, would burn again
- lebean 3y ago
  Wow, 8A to blow a 2A fuse? That's 4x the value!

cool_dude85 3y ago

>Why would a return that is then resold result in a double royalty payment? This was not marketed as a resold return to the customer, they were told they were buying a new book. It obviously results in a loss of royalties - the customer goes to buy a new book, no new book is printed. Rather, Amazon sends a returned copy, and the author doesn't get the royalty that's paid when a new book is printed.

joabaldwin 3y ago

Feel free to bring out some pitchforks! Here's more info about the damage. https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741484863985770912 https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741484863985770912 I'm calling it "damage" just for simplicity's sake on the note, although some were properly damaged (bent covers, weird creases, etc, although not during shipping since they were surprisingly well packed in this case), while some were miscut/misprinted. Regarding royalties, it's better explained on the reply I posted to the main thread. But I'm still unsure about how that might resolve, but I have the specific order number and will try to get an answer. I have not had time to deal with KDP support yet (will as soon as I get home next week).