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> The lack of affordable daily driver EVs is what's slowing down adoption here in the US. Hell, even in Vietnam and India there are fleets of low cost EVs now.

> The lack of affordable daily driver EVs is what's slowing down adoption here in the US. Hell, even in Vietnam and India there are fleets of low cost EVs now. Hard disagree. First off, the top selling "cars" in the US are all trucks and SUVs. It seems pretty clear "an affordable daily driver" is not really what US drivers want, and attempts to make these have all turned in to big money losers in the US, save perhaps the Model X (which is still not affordable by your definition). The comparison to Vietnam and India feels like an apples to oranges comparison. Many of those vehicles are along the lines of "electric auto-rickshaw with a shell" and would be wholly unsuitable for the US market, not to mention US roads. To be clear, I'm not psyched that everyone in the US seems to prefer a mini-tank, but lack of "small daily drivers" is definitely not what is holding back US EV sales.

alephnerd 3y ago
> Many of those vehicles are along the lines of "electric auto-rickshaw with a shell" Ever ridden in a BYD, MG, Vinfast, Nexon, or an IONIQ? To people who aren't car enthusiasts (aka the majority), those cars have a better form factor than the equivalent Toyota, Hyundai, Suzuki, or Mitsubishi that people would normally buy. > but lack of "small daily drivers" is definitely not what is holding back US EV sales It isn't. It's the fact that an EV costs as much as a the median salary in the US in 2023 [0] ($50,000 is the Median wage, and the average transaction price for an EV is $53,000 [1]) > pretty clear "an affordable daily driver" is not really what US drivers want The overwhelming majority of car sales in America are used, not new [2]. The average used car sells for around $26k [3] compared to $48k for new [4] That implies that affordability takes the front seat in most purchasing decisions. [0] - https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm [1] - https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-electric-car-cost/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-electric-car-cost/ [2] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passe... [3] - https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-used-vehicle-price-falls/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-used-vehicle-price-fall... [4] - https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spending-more-on-new-cars-but-prices-not-necessarily-rising-a3134608893/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spe...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Again, your comparisons just totally ignore the reality of the US market. You might as well say "I wish car companies would be willing to sell all their vehicles at a loss." To be clear, I wish it were different. I owned a 2015 Volt, and I loved (still love) that car, and I think it would be the perfect vehicle for most people. I get 35-40 miles of electric range, which for me means a round trip to work plus 1 "errand" trip. The benefits were I never had to worry about range anxiety (I'd frequently use all of 0.1 miles of gas if I went over electric range during the day), I never needed to special charger at home (it would charge overnight on a normal US outlet), and for long trips I didn't have to worry at all about "charger anxiety" because it would just switch over to gas. And what happened? The Volt was always a money loser for GM, despite most owners loving the car. It was a huge lesson to me that (a) marketing is hugely important in the car industry, and (b) most people's car purchases are basically emotional decisions. It doesn't matter how "practical" your car is, many people essentially see their car as an extension of their identity. Again, I wish it weren't this way in the US, but pretending it's not doesn't do anyone any good.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I am in the US market. I was an active car buyer before I decided against it, I and my peers (30 and younger) just aren't buying new or even used cars due to financial reasons, let alone EVs. The capital outlay on a new car, let alone an EV is too high when factoring incomes, and alternatives. And these are peers of mine in VC, Finance, Engineering Management, L7+ engineers. For our friends who are doing average jobs the affordability crisis is even worse.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Exactly. Your argument boils down to "I'm the worst demographic for a car company, but I want them to make money-losing vehicles for me."
      - alephnerd 3y ago
syndicatedjelly 3y ago
> It seems pretty clear "an affordable daily driver" is not really what US drivers want I don't agree with this statement. Automakers continue to use the chip shortage of a couple years ago as an excuse to only manufacturer full-loaded cars of all types. I haven't seen a single base model new vehicle for sale at the dealership in years, ever since the chip shortage began (and is no longer a problem). The US driver doesn't want anything in particular, I have no clue how you can characterize a market of 200 million people with that statement. Maybe rich people in the Bay Area "want" a full loaded Model S, but there are huge numbers of people in America that make a fraction of Tier-1 salaries. They still care about the environment and want a sub-30k car that has fewer features than a Tesla. It's unfair to toss their desires aside and claim that the market knows what the people want. It's like saying the American Macintosh user wants expensive Apple computers because Apple doesn't make a cheap computer. The US auto industry is in a state of regulatory capture. They all operate in a coordinated manner to not undercut each other and sell cheap cars. They can all make more money as an industry if they just sell the most expensive possible car to the consumer, and convince them they got a great deal by offering 96-month car payments and inscrutable lease offers that end up scamming the consumer at every urn.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > Tier-1 salaries Even at Tier 1 salaries it's unaffordable without parent's help. I and my peers are 30 and younger, and work in VC, PE, IB, PM, SWE, Tech Sales, Dentists, Doctors, and other high salary jobs in the Bay Area, and even we don't want to buy cars (new, used, or EV) because the cost outlay is ridiculous, and could be better used to to save for buying a house or a condo or fully paying off student loans.
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    Yeah for sure, even more argument that Americans, wealthy and poor, want inexpensive EVs.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Yep. And the moment sales drop, then they say "Millenials/GenZ are shunning the American dream due to changing tastes", not because the cost ratio has become ridiculous,
Zigurd 3y ago
> First off, the top selling "cars" in the US are all trucks and SUVs. Still? Dealer lots are stuffed with overpriced, overpowered, pavement queen pickups.

alephnerd 3y ago

> Many of those vehicles are along the lines of "electric auto-rickshaw with a shell" Ever ridden in a BYD, MG, Vinfast, Nexon, or an IONIQ? To people who aren't car enthusiasts (aka the majority), those cars have a better form factor than the equivalent Toyota, Hyundai, Suzuki, or Mitsubishi that people would normally buy. > but lack of "small daily drivers" is definitely not what is holding back US EV sales It isn't. It's the fact that an EV costs as much as a the median salary in the US in 2023 [0] ($50,000 is the Median wage, and the average transaction price for an EV is $53,000 [1]) > pretty clear "an affordable daily driver" is not really what US drivers want The overwhelming majority of car sales in America are used, not new [2]. The average used car sells for around $26k [3] compared to $48k for new [4] That implies that affordability takes the front seat in most purchasing decisions. [0] - https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm [1] - https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-electric-car-cost/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-electric-car-cost/ [2] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passe... [3] - https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-used-vehicle-price-falls/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-used-vehicle-price-fall... [4] - https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spending-more-on-new-cars-but-prices-not-necessarily-rising-a3134608893/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spe...

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Again, your comparisons just totally ignore the reality of the US market. You might as well say "I wish car companies would be willing to sell all their vehicles at a loss." To be clear, I wish it were different. I owned a 2015 Volt, and I loved (still love) that car, and I think it would be the perfect vehicle for most people. I get 35-40 miles of electric range, which for me means a round trip to work plus 1 "errand" trip. The benefits were I never had to worry about range anxiety (I'd frequently use all of 0.1 miles of gas if I went over electric range during the day), I never needed to special charger at home (it would charge overnight on a normal US outlet), and for long trips I didn't have to worry at all about "charger anxiety" because it would just switch over to gas. And what happened? The Volt was always a money loser for GM, despite most owners loving the car. It was a huge lesson to me that (a) marketing is hugely important in the car industry, and (b) most people's car purchases are basically emotional decisions. It doesn't matter how "practical" your car is, many people essentially see their car as an extension of their identity. Again, I wish it weren't this way in the US, but pretending it's not doesn't do anyone any good.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  I am in the US market. I was an active car buyer before I decided against it, I and my peers (30 and younger) just aren't buying new or even used cars due to financial reasons, let alone EVs. The capital outlay on a new car, let alone an EV is too high when factoring incomes, and alternatives. And these are peers of mine in VC, Finance, Engineering Management, L7+ engineers. For our friends who are doing average jobs the affordability crisis is even worse.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Exactly. Your argument boils down to "I'm the worst demographic for a car company, but I want them to make money-losing vehicles for me."
    - alephnerd 3y ago

syndicatedjelly 3y ago

> It seems pretty clear "an affordable daily driver" is not really what US drivers want I don't agree with this statement. Automakers continue to use the chip shortage of a couple years ago as an excuse to only manufacturer full-loaded cars of all types. I haven't seen a single base model new vehicle for sale at the dealership in years, ever since the chip shortage began (and is no longer a problem). The US driver doesn't want anything in particular, I have no clue how you can characterize a market of 200 million people with that statement. Maybe rich people in the Bay Area "want" a full loaded Model S, but there are huge numbers of people in America that make a fraction of Tier-1 salaries. They still care about the environment and want a sub-30k car that has fewer features than a Tesla. It's unfair to toss their desires aside and claim that the market knows what the people want. It's like saying the American Macintosh user wants expensive Apple computers because Apple doesn't make a cheap computer. The US auto industry is in a state of regulatory capture. They all operate in a coordinated manner to not undercut each other and sell cheap cars. They can all make more money as an industry if they just sell the most expensive possible car to the consumer, and convince them they got a great deal by offering 96-month car payments and inscrutable lease offers that end up scamming the consumer at every urn.

alephnerd 3y ago
> Tier-1 salaries Even at Tier 1 salaries it's unaffordable without parent's help. I and my peers are 30 and younger, and work in VC, PE, IB, PM, SWE, Tech Sales, Dentists, Doctors, and other high salary jobs in the Bay Area, and even we don't want to buy cars (new, used, or EV) because the cost outlay is ridiculous, and could be better used to to save for buying a house or a condo or fully paying off student loans.
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  Yeah for sure, even more argument that Americans, wealthy and poor, want inexpensive EVs.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Yep. And the moment sales drop, then they say "Millenials/GenZ are shunning the American dream due to changing tastes", not because the cost ratio has become ridiculous,

Zigurd 3y ago

> First off, the top selling "cars" in the US are all trucks and SUVs. Still? Dealer lots are stuffed with overpriced, overpowered, pavement queen pickups.