16 ms·
Stoßlüften: Shock Ventilation
- timrichard 3y agoI’ve started doing this in my home office after buying a CO2 monitor. It’s worked out pretty well. I don’t trade much room temperature at all to get back close to 400PPM.
- Freak_NL 3y agoWebsite doesn't seem to work. I get a header, a footer, but no content.
- vidarh 3y agoI had the same thing, but it worked when I opened it in an incognito window.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- rolandog 3y agoIt didn't work for me, but viewing it in the WayBack Machine [0] did. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20231230110629/https://www.thelocal.de/20190117/stolften/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231230110629/https://www.thelo...
- shmeeed 3y agoIncognito windows are better for Stoßlüften. Noted!
- mrspuratic 3y agowhen you open it in a new window it lets all the content out ;)
- fabian2k 3y agouBlock Origin blocks the entire article. The article also seems to be sponsored content, though I'm not sure what for exactly. The whole page seems a bit fishy and/or slightly broken.
- sirobg 3y agoOP here. Agreed, it's kind of weird but I'm not sure why. I'm not German so I googled the word after seeing it on Twitter. I checked a few articles and this one had the most exhaustive description imho. That's why I decided to post this link despite some cons.
- _cenw 3y agoThe rule blocking this is thelocal.de##.article--sponsored
- vidarh 3y agoThis is used in Norway as well (and I suspect many other places). The term uses the same structure "sjokklufting", which like the German means shock ventilation. A quick search in the Norwegian National Library dates the Norwegian use of this specific term pretty firmly to ~1974 or so. Interestingly all the uses of the term in writing in Norwegian media in 1970's seem to either be or echo the text in an ad from Jøtul, one of the largest manufacturers of cast-iron fireplaces as a negative (making it too cold), while many later mentions are positive, though also with a tinge of "we're only doing this as a fallback because our ventilation isn't good enough" in quite a few articles. A somewhat more common Norwegian variant describing much the same is utlufting ("out-ventilation") or storutlufting ("big out-ventilation"), which is found in print at least back to the 1850's, and which tends to imply much the same, though perhaps with a less negative slant. At some point around the 1980's, the viewpoint seems to have changed from promoting this as a good thing to describing the need for it as evidence of poor ventilation systems. My mum would often do this, and I do it myself too, - open several windows at least a couple of times a day during winter to rapidly clear out stale air. The benefit vs. less ventilation all the time being that while you're cooling the air, it's short enough that you don't lose much heat, and neither does the building mass. It's overall much more pleasant when it's really cold outside than having a window open a crack on an ongoing basis.
- sirobg 3y agoThanks for sharing this Norwegian perspective! I'm french and I don't think there is a specific word to describe this. We commonly use the verb "aérer" which translates to "to ventilate". But when someone uses this term, I think it designates implicitly a short ventilation as described by this German word or your Norwegian one. At least that's what I noticed around me. I don't know of anybody keeping a window open all day long to ventilate when it's cold outside.
- lwn 3y agoIn the Netherlands it's called "luchten". It's similar to "aérer". Both translate to "To air out" in English.
- BrandiATMuhkuh 3y agoMy landlord here in Austria put that in the flat "manual". It's the main technique to avoid high humidity in Winter. Because high humidity means you won't feel warm and it fosters mold.
- sirobg 3y agoOP here. I even read it was sometimes required in the lease terms! https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Sto%C3%9Fl%C3%BCften https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Sto%C3%9Fl%C3%BCften
- fabian2k 3y agoIn Germany as a tenant it is usually your duty to ventilate properly. If you do not do that and this results in mold you as a tenant are responsible, not the landlord. This is of course much more complex in practice, as mold is often not caused by poor ventilation but by bad construction. So the blame can lie with the landlord, or the tenant or both depending on the specific case.
- groestl 3y agoCan confirm (Austrian here)
- HL33tibCe7 3y agoIs this not a waste of energy?
- fabian2k 3y agoCompared to what? Permanently venting air is a much bigger waste of energy. Most of the heat is in the walls, not the air anyway.
- theshrike79 3y ago5 minutes of cool air entering the house isn't a huge amount, but it does bring in fresh air.
- orbital-decay 3y agoYes, to a certain degree it undermines the point of having good insulation (as in, really good - when the thermal mass of the air starts to matter). Modern "nearly zero-heating" houses have long heat exchangers in the vents to avoid the waste.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y agoTrade off
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoSince forced-air heating is uncommon in Europe the impact is not that high. The radiators or under floor heating stays warm and will re-heat the air very quickly.
- zeitgeistcowboy 3y agoNo, not necessarily. If it lowers the humidity, then it can take less energy to heat the house after venting. So it can actually save energy.
- Daniel_sk 3y agoMinimal. Most houses have thick walls and there is a lot of accumulated energy - the air reheats quickly after closing the windows.
- Phelinofist 3y agoI'm German and this was drilled into my head since I was a child. My dad insisted on doing this. Every landlord I had so far required doing this to avoid mold. I do it before I go to sleep, because some fresher/cooler air also helps me sleep better. It is also done in offices and schools.
- ano-ther 3y agoSeems to be the best way to get rid of stale air (while conserving energy) in a country that prides itself of its tightly sealed windows. > Asked by the tabloid BILD-Zeitung what feelings Germany awakes in her, Angela Merkel once famously replied, 'I think of well-sealed windows! No other country can make such well-sealed and nice windows [dichte und schöne Fenster].' https://nybooks.com/articles/2013/08/15/new-german-question/ https://nybooks.com/articles/2013/08/15/new-german-question/
- konschubert 3y agoNo. The best way is ventilation through heat exchangers.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y agoWrong. The best way is the method described in the OP post.
- Dylan16807 3y agoWhy do you think that? If you ventilate through a heat exchanger when inside and outside are different temperatures, you can have more fresh air more of the time while saving energy.
- bgnn 3y agoenergy consumption wise, yes, I guess. though mechanical ventilation requires electricity to be used, so it costs energy too. the heat exchangers are max 90% efficient as far as I know from my own research on what's available on a reasonable budget and size. there are some potential issues if outside temp is higher and it's humid tough. these systems can cause mold.
- euroderf 3y agoAFAIK it's more typically known simply as "Luft" ("air). And the idea is great. Flush the room of aerial crud as quickly as possible so that objects in the room retain their heat.
- sgbeal 3y ago> AFAIK it's more typically known simply as "Luft" "Lüften" is the common local term ("to air out").
- blensor 3y agoAre you writing this on an English keyboard ;) I am pretty sure most modern browsers are able to display an ü so you can write "Lüften"
- sgbeal 3y agoIndeed, i was on a US keyboard. The ü has since been corrected. (Or it's been edited, but this client is still showing the typo. Perhaps i waited too long to edit it.)
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoI was just joking about this today. For years I have heard all kinds of dismissive attitude to this concept yet the last few months tech Twitter has been full of people buying really expensive CO2 meters, presumably because they were unaware of CO2 in rooms? When you buy a Window here, or you rent a flat it usually comes with a manual that asks you to ventilate regularly and how. If you ventilate properly, a CO2 meter is entirely pointless. CO2 levels are very predictable and you can also usually tell when the air quality drops through your senses.
- flemhans 3y agoI can't feel 2000 PPM through my senses. But at 4000 it starts getting stuffy.
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoI really find this hard to believe. 2000 is already at the higher threshold of where people report bad air quality and drowsiness. In practical terms it doesn't matter much because if you are ventilating properly, your CO2 levels don't stay elevated for long and you really do not need to measure or observe.
- Zetobal 3y ago4000 is a badly ventilated bedroom and 5000 is the limit for sustained working. If you get nauseous at 2000 you are highly sensible.
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoWe have a CO2 level at home, so I can validate my personal observations and those of others. But I don't even need to go to personal anecdotes, everything you can read on CO2 levels indicates that people notice.
- Zetobal 3y ago
- Franzeus 3y agoFunny - Doing this exact thing while reading this post
- mxstbr 3y agoThis is the first German word I taught my (American) partner and it is, to this day, likely our most used German word. Such a core concept to our entire culture!
- wongarsu 3y agoA big part of why this works so well in German homes is that they have a high thermal mass. Even single family homes are built with concrete floors and plastered over brick walls (brick as in square building block, I think the currently popular form is expanded concrete?). In these buildings, you can replace all air with outside air at once, and once you close the windows the thermal mass of the building will quickly heat it up again. New buildings tend to move away from it though, instead using automatic fans for ventilation
- froh 3y agothe reason being that with ventilation, you can do a heat exchange between incoming and outgoing air. the structure and thermal mass is similar in new buildings.
- throwaway8877 3y agoMechanical mentilation (with fans) is considerably better in many ways. It allows heat recovery - less heating (or cooling) energy is wasted by proper ventilation. Ventilation is constant - there is no buildup of CO2, moisture or harmful particles like VOC or viruses. There is no need for discomfort caused by the shock ventilation when ventilation is properly dimensioned (enough for people in the room).
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y agoIs mechanical ventilation referring to air conditioning? In that case I would disagree, it’s a magnitudes bigger waste of energy and resources and causes illness (at least for me).
- ricardobeat 3y agoNo. It usually takes the form of extractors in the most humid locations of the house (kitchen, bathroom, laundry) that are connected to a central unit that vents air to the outside. Fresh air comes in through ventilation grills around the house, normally located above windows by means of the resulting pressure. No air conditioning is involved, or recirculating, though more modern (and much more expensive) units have heat recovery systems and air filters that will also bring fresh air back in.
- jeffrallen 3y agoShock ventilation is a habit of Swiss housewives which is diametrically opposed to the new "Minergie" standard for green homes, which provides for air exchange via a super expensive heat exchanger system which extracts heat from stale air before sending it out. Of course everyone who lives in Minergie homes opens the windows each morning while hanging out the duvets, and/or complains that the enormous windows are too big to open, or don't open at all. It's like all the Minergie engineers were so busy at work they didn't notice what their wives were doing at home. (I assume the original engineering for these hear exchangers was in the 70's when that gendered statement was not controversial!)
- palemoonale 3y agoNot possible in the US with all its closed-up office and hotel rooms.
- moron4hire 3y agoAlso, not really necessary. It's more of an Old Wives Tale than an effective practice. The only place I have trouble with mold is in the bathroom, and that's because so many homes built before the 80s were built without ventilation fans in the bathroom. The places I've lived with proper ventilation have not had mold problems.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dzhiurgis 3y agoWhile it’s true germans are plagued with all sort of holistic medicine and homeopathy mind virus, this one is true. With covid wave there was explosion of co2 meters and tons of people realised they live in stuffy air all the time. What’s depressing is that neither rental rules do not require HRVs yo be installed nor little public places have started to upgrade.
- layer8 3y ago> Let’s start with the translation. Literally, Stoß means “shock, impact or thrust” and lüften means “ventilating.” Stoßlüften therefore translates to “shock ventilation.” I’d say the connotation is more of a quick blowing out, ejection or (im)pulse, not a shock. Compare also “ausstoßen” and “Stoßatmung”. The main feature is the short duration.
- neonate 3y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20231230110629/https://www.thelocal.de/20190117/stolften https://web.archive.org/web/20231230110629/https://www.thelo... https://archive.ph/KW0ZC https://archive.ph/KW0ZC
- drsim 3y agoMy Velux roof windows do this automatically for me every day. Works great as they won't open if it is raining or too cold. Sucks that the radiators don't turn off at the same time, so some wasted energy there.
- Empact 3y agoAnother automatic option for achieving these air quality goals is to use an HRV/ERV for continuous fresh air in the house, as they do in Passive House construction. Doing heat exchange between the outgoing and incoming air makes it a very energy efficient system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://www.zehnderamerica.com/heat-recovery-ventilator/ https://www.zehnderamerica.com/heat-recovery-ventilator/
- karolist 3y agoDo you have any control of the radiators? I have Velux GGU windows too and plan on doing Home Assistant integration for precisely the reasons you mention plus some automatic shading based on sun position or light sensors. For this I understand you need a KLF200 interface [1] and of course HA integration [2], then the integration possibilities are pretty much endless. 1. https://www.baubay.de/home-interface-velux-klf-200.html https://www.baubay.de/home-interface-velux-klf-200.html 2. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/velux-kfl200-ha-configuration/28732 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/velux-kfl200-ha-config...
- drsim 3y agoI have Tado TRVs and do have a HA instance. I’m stuck though, as I like the functionality from Tado like home/away, and VELUX like the automations. I’m not sure I could get as good a result by coding that all up in HA.
- throwaway8877 3y agoIt helps when you don't have actual appropriate mechanical ventilation as you should have with modern windows and insulation. A large part of the European buildings still don't have proper ventilation.
- mhb 3y agoEuropean Windows Are Awesome https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38818803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38818803
- blub 3y agoThis “Stoßlüften” is just opening a couple of windows for several minutes to create a draft. There’s a nice booklet about ventilation for regular Joes called “Richtiges Lüften in Wohnungen” (Proper ventilation in apartments) published by the Fraunhofer IRB (i.e. information centre for inner spaces and construction). This booklet explains the role of material and air humidity, how ventilation became important as buildings became more airtight, how relative humidity works, etc. A key observation is that the main purpose of such intense ventilation is refreshing the air, i.e. removing unpleasant smells and CO2. Landlords, experts and courts of law have nevertheless settled on the idea that 2-3x intensive ventilations per day are necessary to avoid mould. The booklet claims that dehumidification is ideally achieved through “Spaltlüften”, which is keeping a window partly open for a longer period of time: the cool outside air enters the room in small quantities which can be quickly heated, thereby drying said air and enabling it to absorb additional humidity. Due to the longer ventilation period, materials which absorb humidity such as drapes, carpets, wallpaper or plaster can release said humidity which shall be absorbed by the dry air and ultimately exchanged with outside air. The heater must stay permanently on so that the cool air can be heated. Some apartments have passive mechanical ventilation such as openings in the rubber seals of the windows or ventilation slots in the window frames which follow this principle.
- franczesko 3y agoIt's also due to the fact, that many German buildings are old and therefore carry poor ventilation parameters. Newer buildings probably don't need shock ventilation, as it's better by design.
- bill38 3y agoSee also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38819249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38819249
- alkonaut 3y agoSounds like building codes haven’t forced old buildings to be retrofitted with decent ventilation. If that’s not possible then it shouldn’t be a school.
- kyledrake 3y agoIf anyone wants way too much information on doing continuous ventilation fans in your house to improve air quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25139125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25139125
- exo-cortex 3y agohttps://youtu.be/wx68Q_6omAo?si=gY_p3P80LPGnmOsu https://youtu.be/wx68Q_6omAo?si=gY_p3P80LPGnmOsu --> Switch on captions. This is a small segment of a weekly program that is broadcast on the french-german tv station "arte". The program is called "karambolage" and highlights interesting peculiarities in French or German culture or funny anecdotes about etymiology, history. It's quite fun. They had this piece about a french exchange student that discovered a requirement to regular "stoßlüften" in the rent-contract.