7 ms·

The Art and Science of PCB Design

155 points by gballan 3y ago

markwu2001 3y ago
PCB Design is a broad "field." Depends on what you're building. I think people place too much of an emphasis on the tool you use instead of the skillsets you need. At the end of the day, in 99% of cases, we're integrating highly complex, yet modular systems built by semiconductor companies. Expand your design capabilities by understanding these semiconductor black boxes that are available to you in your field (power electronics, audio, RF, etc.) As another user mentioned, read up on design references! And datasheet graphs, and try to get your hands on closely related previous designs. As EEs, we should talk more about design patterns and primitives like software engineers see it. But of course, I understand why there's a big discussion about tooling, it's like picking the first language to start programming in. Imo, if you're starting out in PCB design, pick a tool that doesn't get in the way with your learning; something simple but also capable when you progress. The software engineering choice would be python, and I think flux.ai is the closest thing we get to that. But still, if you learn one, you can use the rest! We're all constrained by a pretty standardized manufacturing process so the functions you perform in all these tools will be very similar.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mlsu 3y ago
Wow, what a coincidence! Thank you for posting, this looks like a great resource. I am (a very novice, no EE background hobbyist) creating my first design right now. It seems like there are a lot of design rules that are not common knowledge. And in the electronics tinkering "community" there is basically a vertical wall in the learning curve after Arduino/breadboard. I work on embedded software for a living so I understand that side but some of the electrical stuff really doesn't have an easy learning curve. I am following along with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUqaB0IMh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUqaB0IMh4 and having an OK time so far. If anyone knows of any other resources I would love to know. And, is there a place, maybe a slack or discord, that would review designs? I really want to have someone look at it before it goes out but I have no clue where I would begin searching for someone to ask.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  I can look at it. I'm a hobbyist like you but I have been using KiCad and making PCBs for a few years now. If you want to be anal you can print the PCB from KiCad on a regular laser printer at actual size and "stuff" your paper PCB with the components you intend to install. I've used a push-pin to poke small holes in the paper PCB and then threaded the resistors, etc. into the holes to get a sort of sanity check that the components are going to actually fit with one another. The latest KiCad has a 3D viewing mode that seems to have a similar benefit. But I had a few components on my latest PCB that KiCad didn't know about so there was no 3D model for those components. (I could probably hunt for these component's 3D models on the web but I am too lazy.) Otherwise, I see lots of "can you review my PCB?" on r/PrintedCircuitBoard/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/PrintedCircuitBoard/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PrintedCircuitBoard/). Here's another YouTube video I've sat through: https://youtu.be/3FGNw28xBr0?si=57iSLz2EFxOdUmXn https://youtu.be/3FGNw28xBr0?si=57iSLz2EFxOdUmXn I'm interested in the course as well though. I suspect there is a lot I could learn.
  - willis936 3y ago
    Laziness is the enemy. I spend a lot of time on things that some might consider frivolous. I always make sure to set up pin assignments and constraints properly so ERC and DRC checks mean something. I've found that the 3D models are quite helpful in finding pain points in clearance for multi-board assemblies, large components, and user interactive components. It's also really handy for checking mounting configuration (hole size, standoff height, will standoffs obliterate traces, etc.)
  - dekhn 3y ago
    I did spend the time to find 3d models on the web to plug into my 3d views and it was definitely helpful. Rather than paper, I think you could Kicad-design a 2D grid of holes matching an existing proto board (https://www.amazon.com/ElectroCookie-Solderable-Breadboard-Electronics-Gold-Plated/dp/B07ZYNWJ1S https://www.amazon.com/ElectroCookie-Solderable-Breadboard-E...) and then do the placement and routing in Kicad, and then finally assemble the board in place. To avoid fritzing.
- stn8188 3y ago
wannacboatmovie 3y ago
[flagged]
- bogantech 3y ago
  The page literally says you can use either Kicad or Altium.
  - wannacboatmovie 3y ago
    The first lab assignment is to install Altium which they explain is what is being used for the course, and it includes sage advice such as "just get a Windows machine".
- mtoner23 3y ago
  Kinda jumping to conclusions... Using any PCB design tool well and with good principles and ideas means you can use any other. Good designers are not determined but their tool but by their output
- packetslave 3y ago
  This isn't Reddit. Can we not use offensive terms like "cucked" in technical discussions?
willis936 3y ago
I've spent my vacation making a nixie tube clock PCB. Just the last few traces left to route. I use altium at work and KiCAD at home. There are things I like about both. It really is enjoyable.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  It's so cool how far KiCad had come
fnordpiglet 3y ago
Indirectly related question, I’m thinking about starting into PCBs, have downloaded KiCAD and started playing around. But I’m not super psyched to etch my own boards (although I understand it’s gotten easier over the last 30 years), and have been thinking about getting a PCB CNC. Any thoughts on best way to take your designs and make them real?
- AdamH12113 3y ago
  You can get boards fabbed at places like OSH Park or JLCPCB for cheap, complete with plated through holes and solder mask. I don’t know a good reason to try to make your own boards these days.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
    Yeah, PCBs - even small quantities- have become to cheap to deal with making them oneself. We used to have a CNC at work for PCB prototyping, but it was also a bit of work to get everything set up. It didn’t work like a printer. Now we just order PCBs. We usually use Aisler or JLCPCB.
    - buescher 3y ago
      The CNC machines are still useful for testing RF designs. You can iterate a PCB antenna design more quickly with one than you can by sending out. And they're a low-commitment (i.e. no purchase order) way to make small jigs and adapters.
- analognoise 3y ago
  JLCPCB. It is so outrageously cheap that it isn’t worth etching anything yourself anymore.
- dvh 3y ago
  I recently made my first pcb in kicad and ordered it at jlcpb, it was $4 including shipping for 5pcs. At this price I wouldn't bother with home made.
- 3y ago
thousandknives 3y ago
I'm not entirely sure from the website - the lectures will be recorded and posted online for everyone to access?
- fischerm 3y ago
  They will be once the class starts and the lectures happen! In the meantime feel free to check out the resources from last year: https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ And the lectures are all on YouTube :) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJpsOGUzkGzKMEPmRKWAJcLpKBvSGrfvR&si=3OtRLTCwOirQ4qLr https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJpsOGUzkGzKMEPmRKWAJcLpK...
SeasonalEnnui 3y ago
KiCad is good now. That might seem like a flippant comment however it is indicative of the progress that KiCad has made in the last 3 years. I have moved from a firmly entrenched position with a proprietary EDA (which felt like a pair of comfortable shoes) to KiCad for the majority of projects. To any KiCad dev reading this - thank you.
- 15155 3y ago
  Until you need to route DDR (or any other parallel bus nets.) Or use any significant amount of impedance control. Or use blind/buried vias. Or tent specific sides of vias. Kicad is great, but there are very solid use cases that are substantially more painful than other commercial EDA offerings.
  - mips_r4300i 3y ago
    I've watched the growth of kicad since 2013. Far more usable now, though it was very poor at the beginning. In its current state I could recommend it for most hobbyist stuff and some simpler commercial PCBs. Far better than Eagle ever got. Meanwhile I will continue to use Altium for everything just because I'm fast with it. When time is money and $8k is just another expense it's well worth it.
  - MagerValp 3y ago
    What’s the issue with blind vias? You had to enable them manually earlier, but as of 7 I think they’re always enabled.
    - 15155 3y ago
      The level of UI polish and control Altium gives you over the construction of HDI vias (and just in general, the properties pane) is substantially greater.
  - SeasonalEnnui 3y ago
    Agreed! The gap is getting smaller, I can imagine feature parity in another few years. Some fellow nerds doing that kind of stuff in $$$-EDA say it isn't exactly smooth sailing in those EDAs - regular crashes and so on.
seventytwo 3y ago
Very cool!
dimitrios1 3y ago
I haven't touched PCB design/EDA since college because it was so cost prohibitive and I lost the student license to Mentor Graphics, but it's something I've always wanted to return to. I am excited to try this out!
fischerm 3y ago
Howdy everyone - Fischer here, I started this course last year along with my good friend Adi. Glad to see that this ended up on HN, and glad that people are excited about it and seem to find the content useful. The goal of putting this together was to help people have fun and feel empowered to build cool stuff, and from the comments here it looks like it's helping that. Yay :) A quick note though: We're updating the site right now to get it ready for it's second running in IAP 2024, which is in about a week or two. So most of the content for this year is being built out, but everything from last year is available under the archive page: https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ Happy hacking!
- dekhn 3y ago
  I spent part of yesterday looking over Winnie's projects and was amazed. I continue to be blown away at the productivity of MIT students and their ability to make fun things (I'm thinking of the various high power LED projects, as I work with high power LEDss). I especially enjoyed reading about designing, simulating, and manufacturing a single-layer Aluminum PCB which acted as the substrate for the LEDs, but was impossibly hard to solder because it was a huge heat sink! And the solution to pre-heat the board with a board heater worked. Please continue to post the projects, especially the git repos with the actual designs, as well as the reports.
  - wszeto 3y ago
    Thank you :) LEDs are how I got into electronics-- they were a great way for me to burn crazy amounts of power when I was learning power electronics. I'll continue to post projects since most of my learning happens when I make something that works... or more often doesn't work. I don't see a world where I can stop since there's so much to learn and explore. Currently I'm working on a ~100W LED driver that works off AC mains and it's really pushed me to be thoughtful and intentional with all the testing I do. It's my first project where I pull power straight off the wall, and it's both exciting and terrifying.
    - dekhn 3y ago
AdrianGispert 3y ago
Courses like this is what makes me keep going, I’m pretty new to EE and PCB design so the learning curve is somewhat difficult since I have to look up for resources everywhere for the specific things I want to make. I tried KiCad at first but ended up using Flux as my main design tool because of two things: If I’m stuck on something, instead of having to google the answers and accommodate their context with mine, I instead ask their AI which already has the context of my project. And second one is that there is such a strong sense of community and collaboration, it makes me feel like I never have to do anything alone. I mean the whole library is made by other people (as far as I know) I know I won’t have to Google everything at a later point but for now it’s what works for me.
teleforce 3y ago
They don't include this book in their reference books list but this is an excellent book on PCB design. [1] Bogatin's Practical Guide to Prototype Breadboard and PCB Design: https://us.artechhouse.com/Bogatins-Practical-Guide-to-Prototype-Breadboard-and-PCB-Design-P2206.aspx https://us.artechhouse.com/Bogatins-Practical-Guide-to-Proto...
wszeto 3y ago
Hey there it's Winnie. Thanks for all the helpful guides everyone posted! They all seem quite interesting and it makes writing lecture plans and teaching our students much easier :) As mentioned on our website, we'll be putting up our content as we complete them. By the end of January of next year there should be a complete set of lecture recordings, lecture notes, labs, and assignments updated for 2024.

155 points by gballan 3y ago

markwu2001 3y ago

PCB Design is a broad "field." Depends on what you're building. I think people place too much of an emphasis on the tool you use instead of the skillsets you need. At the end of the day, in 99% of cases, we're integrating highly complex, yet modular systems built by semiconductor companies. Expand your design capabilities by understanding these semiconductor black boxes that are available to you in your field (power electronics, audio, RF, etc.) As another user mentioned, read up on design references! And datasheet graphs, and try to get your hands on closely related previous designs. As EEs, we should talk more about design patterns and primitives like software engineers see it. But of course, I understand why there's a big discussion about tooling, it's like picking the first language to start programming in. Imo, if you're starting out in PCB design, pick a tool that doesn't get in the way with your learning; something simple but also capable when you progress. The software engineering choice would be python, and I think flux.ai is the closest thing we get to that. But still, if you learn one, you can use the rest! We're all constrained by a pretty standardized manufacturing process so the functions you perform in all these tools will be very similar.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mlsu 3y ago

Wow, what a coincidence! Thank you for posting, this looks like a great resource. I am (a very novice, no EE background hobbyist) creating my first design right now. It seems like there are a lot of design rules that are not common knowledge. And in the electronics tinkering "community" there is basically a vertical wall in the learning curve after Arduino/breadboard. I work on embedded software for a living so I understand that side but some of the electrical stuff really doesn't have an easy learning curve. I am following along with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUqaB0IMh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUqaB0IMh4 and having an OK time so far. If anyone knows of any other resources I would love to know. And, is there a place, maybe a slack or discord, that would review designs? I really want to have someone look at it before it goes out but I have no clue where I would begin searching for someone to ask.

JKCalhoun 3y ago
I can look at it. I'm a hobbyist like you but I have been using KiCad and making PCBs for a few years now. If you want to be anal you can print the PCB from KiCad on a regular laser printer at actual size and "stuff" your paper PCB with the components you intend to install. I've used a push-pin to poke small holes in the paper PCB and then threaded the resistors, etc. into the holes to get a sort of sanity check that the components are going to actually fit with one another. The latest KiCad has a 3D viewing mode that seems to have a similar benefit. But I had a few components on my latest PCB that KiCad didn't know about so there was no 3D model for those components. (I could probably hunt for these component's 3D models on the web but I am too lazy.) Otherwise, I see lots of "can you review my PCB?" on r/PrintedCircuitBoard/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/PrintedCircuitBoard/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PrintedCircuitBoard/). Here's another YouTube video I've sat through: https://youtu.be/3FGNw28xBr0?si=57iSLz2EFxOdUmXn https://youtu.be/3FGNw28xBr0?si=57iSLz2EFxOdUmXn I'm interested in the course as well though. I suspect there is a lot I could learn.
- willis936 3y ago
  Laziness is the enemy. I spend a lot of time on things that some might consider frivolous. I always make sure to set up pin assignments and constraints properly so ERC and DRC checks mean something. I've found that the 3D models are quite helpful in finding pain points in clearance for multi-board assemblies, large components, and user interactive components. It's also really handy for checking mounting configuration (hole size, standoff height, will standoffs obliterate traces, etc.)
- dekhn 3y ago
  I did spend the time to find 3d models on the web to plug into my 3d views and it was definitely helpful. Rather than paper, I think you could Kicad-design a 2D grid of holes matching an existing proto board (https://www.amazon.com/ElectroCookie-Solderable-Breadboard-Electronics-Gold-Plated/dp/B07ZYNWJ1S https://www.amazon.com/ElectroCookie-Solderable-Breadboard-E...) and then do the placement and routing in Kicad, and then finally assemble the board in place. To avoid fritzing.
stn8188 3y ago

wannacboatmovie 3y ago

[flagged]

bogantech 3y ago
The page literally says you can use either Kicad or Altium.
- wannacboatmovie 3y ago
  The first lab assignment is to install Altium which they explain is what is being used for the course, and it includes sage advice such as "just get a Windows machine".
mtoner23 3y ago
Kinda jumping to conclusions... Using any PCB design tool well and with good principles and ideas means you can use any other. Good designers are not determined but their tool but by their output
packetslave 3y ago
This isn't Reddit. Can we not use offensive terms like "cucked" in technical discussions?

willis936 3y ago

I've spent my vacation making a nixie tube clock PCB. Just the last few traces left to route. I use altium at work and KiCAD at home. There are things I like about both. It really is enjoyable.

iancmceachern 3y ago
It's so cool how far KiCad had come

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Indirectly related question, I’m thinking about starting into PCBs, have downloaded KiCAD and started playing around. But I’m not super psyched to etch my own boards (although I understand it’s gotten easier over the last 30 years), and have been thinking about getting a PCB CNC. Any thoughts on best way to take your designs and make them real?

AdamH12113 3y ago
You can get boards fabbed at places like OSH Park or JLCPCB for cheap, complete with plated through holes and solder mask. I don’t know a good reason to try to make your own boards these days.
- _fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
  Yeah, PCBs - even small quantities- have become to cheap to deal with making them oneself. We used to have a CNC at work for PCB prototyping, but it was also a bit of work to get everything set up. It didn’t work like a printer. Now we just order PCBs. We usually use Aisler or JLCPCB.
  - buescher 3y ago
    The CNC machines are still useful for testing RF designs. You can iterate a PCB antenna design more quickly with one than you can by sending out. And they're a low-commitment (i.e. no purchase order) way to make small jigs and adapters.
analognoise 3y ago
JLCPCB. It is so outrageously cheap that it isn’t worth etching anything yourself anymore.
dvh 3y ago
I recently made my first pcb in kicad and ordered it at jlcpb, it was $4 including shipping for 5pcs. At this price I wouldn't bother with home made.
3y ago

thousandknives 3y ago

I'm not entirely sure from the website - the lectures will be recorded and posted online for everyone to access?

fischerm 3y ago
They will be once the class starts and the lectures happen! In the meantime feel free to check out the resources from last year: https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ And the lectures are all on YouTube :) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJpsOGUzkGzKMEPmRKWAJcLpKBvSGrfvR&si=3OtRLTCwOirQ4qLr https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJpsOGUzkGzKMEPmRKWAJcLpK...

SeasonalEnnui 3y ago

KiCad is good now. That might seem like a flippant comment however it is indicative of the progress that KiCad has made in the last 3 years. I have moved from a firmly entrenched position with a proprietary EDA (which felt like a pair of comfortable shoes) to KiCad for the majority of projects. To any KiCad dev reading this - thank you.

15155 3y ago
Until you need to route DDR (or any other parallel bus nets.) Or use any significant amount of impedance control. Or use blind/buried vias. Or tent specific sides of vias. Kicad is great, but there are very solid use cases that are substantially more painful than other commercial EDA offerings.
- mips_r4300i 3y ago
  I've watched the growth of kicad since 2013. Far more usable now, though it was very poor at the beginning. In its current state I could recommend it for most hobbyist stuff and some simpler commercial PCBs. Far better than Eagle ever got. Meanwhile I will continue to use Altium for everything just because I'm fast with it. When time is money and $8k is just another expense it's well worth it.
- MagerValp 3y ago
  What’s the issue with blind vias? You had to enable them manually earlier, but as of 7 I think they’re always enabled.
  - 15155 3y ago
    The level of UI polish and control Altium gives you over the construction of HDI vias (and just in general, the properties pane) is substantially greater.
- SeasonalEnnui 3y ago
  Agreed! The gap is getting smaller, I can imagine feature parity in another few years. Some fellow nerds doing that kind of stuff in $$$-EDA say it isn't exactly smooth sailing in those EDAs - regular crashes and so on.

seventytwo 3y ago

Very cool!

dimitrios1 3y ago

I haven't touched PCB design/EDA since college because it was so cost prohibitive and I lost the student license to Mentor Graphics, but it's something I've always wanted to return to. I am excited to try this out!

fischerm 3y ago

Howdy everyone - Fischer here, I started this course last year along with my good friend Adi. Glad to see that this ended up on HN, and glad that people are excited about it and seem to find the content useful. The goal of putting this together was to help people have fun and feel empowered to build cool stuff, and from the comments here it looks like it's helping that. Yay :) A quick note though: We're updating the site right now to get it ready for it's second running in IAP 2024, which is in about a week or two. So most of the content for this year is being built out, but everything from last year is available under the archive page: https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ https://pcb.mit.edu/archive/IAP2023/ Happy hacking!

dekhn 3y ago
I spent part of yesterday looking over Winnie's projects and was amazed. I continue to be blown away at the productivity of MIT students and their ability to make fun things (I'm thinking of the various high power LED projects, as I work with high power LEDss). I especially enjoyed reading about designing, simulating, and manufacturing a single-layer Aluminum PCB which acted as the substrate for the LEDs, but was impossibly hard to solder because it was a huge heat sink! And the solution to pre-heat the board with a board heater worked. Please continue to post the projects, especially the git repos with the actual designs, as well as the reports.
- wszeto 3y ago
  Thank you :) LEDs are how I got into electronics-- they were a great way for me to burn crazy amounts of power when I was learning power electronics. I'll continue to post projects since most of my learning happens when I make something that works... or more often doesn't work. I don't see a world where I can stop since there's so much to learn and explore. Currently I'm working on a ~100W LED driver that works off AC mains and it's really pushed me to be thoughtful and intentional with all the testing I do. It's my first project where I pull power straight off the wall, and it's both exciting and terrifying.
  - dekhn 3y ago

AdrianGispert 3y ago

Courses like this is what makes me keep going, I’m pretty new to EE and PCB design so the learning curve is somewhat difficult since I have to look up for resources everywhere for the specific things I want to make. I tried KiCad at first but ended up using Flux as my main design tool because of two things: If I’m stuck on something, instead of having to google the answers and accommodate their context with mine, I instead ask their AI which already has the context of my project. And second one is that there is such a strong sense of community and collaboration, it makes me feel like I never have to do anything alone. I mean the whole library is made by other people (as far as I know) I know I won’t have to Google everything at a later point but for now it’s what works for me.

teleforce 3y ago

They don't include this book in their reference books list but this is an excellent book on PCB design. [1] Bogatin's Practical Guide to Prototype Breadboard and PCB Design: https://us.artechhouse.com/Bogatins-Practical-Guide-to-Prototype-Breadboard-and-PCB-Design-P2206.aspx https://us.artechhouse.com/Bogatins-Practical-Guide-to-Proto...

wszeto 3y ago

Hey there it's Winnie. Thanks for all the helpful guides everyone posted! They all seem quite interesting and it makes writing lecture plans and teaching our students much easier :) As mentioned on our website, we'll be putting up our content as we complete them. By the end of January of next year there should be a complete set of lecture recordings, lecture notes, labs, and assignments updated for 2024.