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As someone in the Apple ecosystem, Firefox is not a very compelling alternative. I've certainly tried: Firefox Focus was my main iOS browser for a few years (I

As someone in the Apple ecosystem, Firefox is not a very compelling alternative. I've certainly tried: Firefox Focus was my main iOS browser for a few years (I know it's Webkit-based) and I've tried switching on desktop as well. On desktop, various Firefox updates would change my settings subtly and nag me about features I had no interest in. On top of that, it was simply a slower browser, both with DOM manipulation and Javascript. For example, when I made my latest research project (https://pl.aiwright.dev https://pl.aiwright.dev) Firefox would routinely struggle with the large complex graphs (over 100k nodes, though only a few hundred nodes attached to the DOM at any given time). Safari handles it with no issues whatsoever. I'm sure there are likely workarounds to speed things up on Firefox, but I don't have the time or energy for something like that since it's a research project, not an end-user facing product. Maybe you can make the argument that switching to Firefox will incentivize improvements, but so far that hasn't been my experience. I've now moved away from Firefox to things like Orion (which is still quite buggy, but useful enough). Safari seems to be getting better over time, with things like containers now and extensions like Userscripts [2]. [1]: https://pl.aiwright.dev https://pl.aiwright.dev [2]: https://github.com/quoid/userscripts https://github.com/quoid/userscripts

petrusnonius 3y ago
I use Waterfox on Mac and it is great. Safari is slow in comparison and the only thing that leads me to use it is integration with TouchID.
thefourthchime 3y ago
Same, it's simply easier to use Safari on my phone and Mac. The performance is fantastic, syncing is perfect, and switching between the two devices is effortless. If I used windows or Linux I would probably give it a try again.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Not to mention on iOS your choices are really between Safari and Safari with a different skin.
  - behnamoh 3y ago
    No, on iOS the choice is between Safari + Plugins (official Safari) and Safari w/o Plugins (Chrome, Brave)
    - europeanNyan 3y ago
      Brave on iOS is a, more or less, perfect Youtube Player. I haven't seen ads in months and it just works while also supporting the download of videos and creation of local playlists.
      - behnamoh 3y ago
        Oh yes, I totally agree (and I hinted on this in my other comment here). Brave on iOS is a blessing.
      - redcobra762 3y ago
        The YouTube app is also a perfect YouTube player, so I’m confused…
        latexr 3y ago
        I haven’t used the official YouTube app, but I seriously doubt it’s ad-free and that it lets you download videos.
        redcobra762 3y ago
        It does both, actually!
        latexr 3y ago
        Are you saying that, by default and without any account, the official YouTube iOS app does not display ads? Then why are there so many alternative frontends which have ad blocking as a feature and Reddit is littered with threads asking how to block ads in the app?
- core-utility 3y ago
  I also love having the Apple Pay and automatic SMS OTP integration. Those got me to start using Safari again from FF, and the only thing I'm really missing is uBlock Origin (Adguard is doing okay in its place)
SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
I don't know what browser you've tried, but it certainly is not Firefox Quantum. That browser in my experience is on par with Chrome's performance.
- nsagent 3y ago
  Legitimately curious. Considering Firefox Quantum was released in 2017, is it even possible that my M1 is running any other version of Firefox? Doesn't seem likely considering the copy on the Mozilla site [1] for Firefox Quantum: > Firefox Quantum was a revolution in Firefox development. In 2017, we created a new, lightning fast browser that constantly improves. Firefox Quantum is the Firefox Browser. [1]: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browsers/quantum/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browsers/quantum/
- xvector 3y ago
  Firefox has shipped Quantum in mainline for years. It may be on Chrome's level (I never tested), but regardless, it's nowhere near as performant as Safari. Try running a very compute intensive script (that chokes your CPU/GPU). In my experience Firefox becomes unusable, Safari is still buttery smooth. Now maybe Safari simply performs better, or maybe that's some OS level prioritization unfairly advantaging Safari, but to me as an end user, that's irrelevant.
  - verwalt 3y ago
    I seem to be the only one, but I swipe to go back one website, and Safari for some reason shows the old website but freezes for 1-2 seconds.
wharvle 3y ago
> On desktop, various Firefox updates would change my settings subtly and nag me about features I had no interest in If Firefox suited my needs 100% as well as Safari, this is why I’d still not use it. God damn is it noisy. You’re a browser, I have no interest in engaging with you more than necessary, whatever-I-was-trying-to-do is what I care about. Please stop acting like a kid who’s not getting enough attention. It’s off-putting.
- temp0826 3y ago
  It's been a long time since I've had a fresh install of ff (I do recall some notification bars in the window you have to close out), but as a very longtime user, I have no idea what you're talking about...example?
  - wharvle 3y ago
    They pop new tabs, little “hint” boxes, et c, all the time. It’s the kind of thing that’s easy to become blind to as a power user (but is annoying if you do notice it), but that murders UX for lots of folks.
    - temp0826 3y ago
      Unless you mean the random tabs when an extension e.g. tampermonkey gets updated and shows a change log I don't think I've seen what you mentioned. Definitely nothing "all the time".
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    Been using it since quantum, it happens after some updates, recently there was some modal about some feature I didn’t care about, and I had to click twice to close it. That was only a few weeks ago.
- pivo 3y ago
  > God damn is it noisy What is this noise you're referring to? I'm 90% Firefox and 10% Safari and I don't understand this comment.
nilespotter 3y ago
I use Librewolf and Orion on MacOS, Orion on iOS/iPadOS (which is Safari I suppose, but the shell is awesome)
- petrusnonius 3y ago
  Orion was extremely buggy for me which is a shame, I was looking forward to the extensions and being able to use touchID.
- capl 3y ago
  I’ve tried using Orion but I found it very slow and does not work fully as it should with a single chrome plugin I tried. Back to Safari!
xvector 3y ago
Safari is much smoother on my Mac. I was recently running a very compute intensive script. Firefox was dropping frames so badly that the UI became nearly unusable. In contrast, Safari was still a buttery smooth 120fps. Combine this with the fact that I still get E2EE sync and better integration with my OS, Firefox is no longer tempting to me. And I used to be a Firefox power user for years. For me, the enhanced plugin ecosystem and additional control that Firefox offers simply isn't worth a slower browser that isn't as well integrated.
schimmy_changa 3y ago
similarly, on mac this bug is a showstopper for me, so I'm using Brave currently: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1149826 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1149826 (the bug is that text replacement does not work in FF on mac, something that saves me so much time daily)
- verwalt 3y ago
  My main Problem is that fn+E won't open the emoji picker. I have to go to another app, insert an emoji there and copy it over. I tried switching to Firefox like 3 times this year, but there's always something putting me off. I really really want to though.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    If this is on macOS, what about ⌘ ^ SPC to get the emoji picker?
    - verwalt 3y ago
      Nothing happens. But sometimes, it "works" but there's no opening animation and it instantly runs the closing animation of the pop up and it's gone again. It's really weird. Sometimes fn+E does work, but it writes an unwanted "e".
- oreilles 3y ago
  On macOS, the most annoying thing for me is the inability to use the native login to authenticate to apple web services. I have to type in my apple ID, my password, and then the code sent to one of my devices every time. On chrome and safari, I can just use my fingerprint or laptop password and done.
- ianleighton 3y ago
  Yes. This bug makes the UX on mac just feel broken and frustrating reminds you every time you do it. Tried to bear it for a year but I use text replacements so heavily that I had to switch off eventually. Firefox: for the love of Jobs, fix it!
tomxor 3y ago
> I've certainly tried: Firefox Focus was my main iOS browser for a few years (I know it's Webkit-based) TL;DR The truth is, no one has ever used Firefox or Chrome on iOS. You say you know it's webkit based... but the entire engine for any browser on iOS is Safari, not merely webkit based. Apple doesn't have a policy of "your browser must be derived from webkit" they have a policy of forcing browsers to use the literal same engine built into iOS that Safari is using - i.e you are just using Safari with a different UI, there is only one browser engine on iOS. This is an annoying detail to have to repetitively explain to people, and Apple benefits from this blurring of the lines in the army of users defending them for browser diversity. Honestly, if i had an iOS device I would use the Safari app - and as a web dev and a user I fucking hate Safari, but what's the point in using a different UI, they are all the Safari engine, the main browsing experience is by definition the exact same.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  Exactly. I use Safari and I hate it, but Firefox is just a reskin with a worse WebView.
andrewstuart 3y ago
I use Firefox on macOS as my primary browser it’s great no complaints at all.
- n8henrie 3y ago
  Same here, using basically nothing but FF for maybe 6 years or so. I somehow was lugging around up to 2,400 tabs for much of last year and it handled it surprisingly well. Got down to 30 at one point, now back up to nearly 400 :/ Very rarely a website won't load, I just change the user agent to Chrome and refresh and it almost always works fine.
tgv 3y ago
Weird, I have very little problems with Firefox on macos. I had performance issues with Chrome for big tables. Firefox was sluggish, but Chrome took 30s to render it (about 3000 rows, 300 columns). I ended up writing something that displays a small view of the table using absolute positioned divs which depend on the scroll bar. Now it works smoothly on all browsers (including some older tablet). It was not a simple workaround, though. Orion is also webkit, but buggy, isn't it? I don't care for it.
jwells89 3y ago
Firefox is not my primary browser on macOS for similar reasons. Given how similar iOS is to macOS I wouldn’t expect the situation to be much different with a hypothetical Gecko-based version of Firefox for iOS — the performance and efficiency isn’t quite there compared to WebKit-based stuff. There’s platform-agnostic issues too, however. Firefox is my primary browser on Windows and Linux, but it has a pile of UI papercuts which I’ve kinda-fixed with userchrome.css hacks, and the result is underwhelming (as is the possibility of these hacks periodically breaking with updates). It’s enough of a frustration that forking Firefox to properly fix them would be tempting if keeping up with the firehose of security patches from mainline weren’t so daunting. My biggest wish is for Gecko to re-gain embedding support on desktop platforms so I can build my own browser around it, making keeping it secure as simple as updating dependencies.
butterfi 3y ago
I had to stop using Safari for development when I discovered the cache wasn’t clearing, even when I asked it to. That was a few years ago, and frankly, I’ve never looked back.
PakG1 3y ago
I've had one too many times where Firefox crashed and I lost all my tabs. Then had to go through weird steps to recover them. Too much annoyance. Just use Safari now, happy as a clam.
kzrdude 3y ago
Firefox proper is available for Mac but remember that on iOS the "firefox" is not using its own browser engine and there are not any add-ons available.
bee_rider 3y ago
Using Safari on Apple’s stuff seems fine. What really matters is not supporting the chrome-alike push toward monopoly.
Last5Digits 3y ago
Somewhat off topic, but thank you for putting into code what has been floating around in my imagination since high school. I haven't tested your project yet, but I really do hope that AI assisted roleplaying becomes a mainstay in the game development world. I got a taste when toying around with AI dungeon, and if this isn't the the next step in meaningful interactive storytelling, then I don't know what is.

petrusnonius 3y ago

I use Waterfox on Mac and it is great. Safari is slow in comparison and the only thing that leads me to use it is integration with TouchID.

thefourthchime 3y ago

Same, it's simply easier to use Safari on my phone and Mac. The performance is fantastic, syncing is perfect, and switching between the two devices is effortless. If I used windows or Linux I would probably give it a try again.

TheCleric 3y ago
Not to mention on iOS your choices are really between Safari and Safari with a different skin.
- behnamoh 3y ago
  No, on iOS the choice is between Safari + Plugins (official Safari) and Safari w/o Plugins (Chrome, Brave)
  - europeanNyan 3y ago
    Brave on iOS is a, more or less, perfect Youtube Player. I haven't seen ads in months and it just works while also supporting the download of videos and creation of local playlists.
    - behnamoh 3y ago
      Oh yes, I totally agree (and I hinted on this in my other comment here). Brave on iOS is a blessing.
    - redcobra762 3y ago
      The YouTube app is also a perfect YouTube player, so I’m confused…
      - latexr 3y ago
        I haven’t used the official YouTube app, but I seriously doubt it’s ad-free and that it lets you download videos.
        redcobra762 3y ago
        It does both, actually!
        latexr 3y ago
        Are you saying that, by default and without any account, the official YouTube iOS app does not display ads? Then why are there so many alternative frontends which have ad blocking as a feature and Reddit is littered with threads asking how to block ads in the app?
core-utility 3y ago
I also love having the Apple Pay and automatic SMS OTP integration. Those got me to start using Safari again from FF, and the only thing I'm really missing is uBlock Origin (Adguard is doing okay in its place)

SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago

I don't know what browser you've tried, but it certainly is not Firefox Quantum. That browser in my experience is on par with Chrome's performance.

nsagent 3y ago
Legitimately curious. Considering Firefox Quantum was released in 2017, is it even possible that my M1 is running any other version of Firefox? Doesn't seem likely considering the copy on the Mozilla site [1] for Firefox Quantum: > Firefox Quantum was a revolution in Firefox development. In 2017, we created a new, lightning fast browser that constantly improves. Firefox Quantum is the Firefox Browser. [1]: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browsers/quantum/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browsers/quantum/
xvector 3y ago
Firefox has shipped Quantum in mainline for years. It may be on Chrome's level (I never tested), but regardless, it's nowhere near as performant as Safari. Try running a very compute intensive script (that chokes your CPU/GPU). In my experience Firefox becomes unusable, Safari is still buttery smooth. Now maybe Safari simply performs better, or maybe that's some OS level prioritization unfairly advantaging Safari, but to me as an end user, that's irrelevant.
- verwalt 3y ago
  I seem to be the only one, but I swipe to go back one website, and Safari for some reason shows the old website but freezes for 1-2 seconds.

wharvle 3y ago

> On desktop, various Firefox updates would change my settings subtly and nag me about features I had no interest in If Firefox suited my needs 100% as well as Safari, this is why I’d still not use it. God damn is it noisy. You’re a browser, I have no interest in engaging with you more than necessary, whatever-I-was-trying-to-do is what I care about. Please stop acting like a kid who’s not getting enough attention. It’s off-putting.

temp0826 3y ago
It's been a long time since I've had a fresh install of ff (I do recall some notification bars in the window you have to close out), but as a very longtime user, I have no idea what you're talking about...example?
- wharvle 3y ago
  They pop new tabs, little “hint” boxes, et c, all the time. It’s the kind of thing that’s easy to become blind to as a power user (but is annoying if you do notice it), but that murders UX for lots of folks.
  - temp0826 3y ago
    Unless you mean the random tabs when an extension e.g. tampermonkey gets updated and shows a change log I don't think I've seen what you mentioned. Definitely nothing "all the time".
- Semaphor 3y ago
  Been using it since quantum, it happens after some updates, recently there was some modal about some feature I didn’t care about, and I had to click twice to close it. That was only a few weeks ago.
pivo 3y ago
> God damn is it noisy What is this noise you're referring to? I'm 90% Firefox and 10% Safari and I don't understand this comment.

nilespotter 3y ago

I use Librewolf and Orion on MacOS, Orion on iOS/iPadOS (which is Safari I suppose, but the shell is awesome)

petrusnonius 3y ago
Orion was extremely buggy for me which is a shame, I was looking forward to the extensions and being able to use touchID.
capl 3y ago
I’ve tried using Orion but I found it very slow and does not work fully as it should with a single chrome plugin I tried. Back to Safari!

xvector 3y ago

Safari is much smoother on my Mac. I was recently running a very compute intensive script. Firefox was dropping frames so badly that the UI became nearly unusable. In contrast, Safari was still a buttery smooth 120fps. Combine this with the fact that I still get E2EE sync and better integration with my OS, Firefox is no longer tempting to me. And I used to be a Firefox power user for years. For me, the enhanced plugin ecosystem and additional control that Firefox offers simply isn't worth a slower browser that isn't as well integrated.

schimmy_changa 3y ago

similarly, on mac this bug is a showstopper for me, so I'm using Brave currently: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1149826 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1149826 (the bug is that text replacement does not work in FF on mac, something that saves me so much time daily)

verwalt 3y ago
My main Problem is that fn+E won't open the emoji picker. I have to go to another app, insert an emoji there and copy it over. I tried switching to Firefox like 3 times this year, but there's always something putting me off. I really really want to though.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  If this is on macOS, what about ⌘ ^ SPC to get the emoji picker?
  - verwalt 3y ago
    Nothing happens. But sometimes, it "works" but there's no opening animation and it instantly runs the closing animation of the pop up and it's gone again. It's really weird. Sometimes fn+E does work, but it writes an unwanted "e".
oreilles 3y ago
On macOS, the most annoying thing for me is the inability to use the native login to authenticate to apple web services. I have to type in my apple ID, my password, and then the code sent to one of my devices every time. On chrome and safari, I can just use my fingerprint or laptop password and done.
ianleighton 3y ago
Yes. This bug makes the UX on mac just feel broken and frustrating reminds you every time you do it. Tried to bear it for a year but I use text replacements so heavily that I had to switch off eventually. Firefox: for the love of Jobs, fix it!

tomxor 3y ago

> I've certainly tried: Firefox Focus was my main iOS browser for a few years (I know it's Webkit-based) TL;DR The truth is, no one has ever used Firefox or Chrome on iOS. You say you know it's webkit based... but the entire engine for any browser on iOS is Safari, not merely webkit based. Apple doesn't have a policy of "your browser must be derived from webkit" they have a policy of forcing browsers to use the literal same engine built into iOS that Safari is using - i.e you are just using Safari with a different UI, there is only one browser engine on iOS. This is an annoying detail to have to repetitively explain to people, and Apple benefits from this blurring of the lines in the army of users defending them for browser diversity. Honestly, if i had an iOS device I would use the Safari app - and as a web dev and a user I fucking hate Safari, but what's the point in using a different UI, they are all the Safari engine, the main browsing experience is by definition the exact same.

the_gipsy 3y ago
Exactly. I use Safari and I hate it, but Firefox is just a reskin with a worse WebView.

andrewstuart 3y ago

I use Firefox on macOS as my primary browser it’s great no complaints at all.

n8henrie 3y ago
Same here, using basically nothing but FF for maybe 6 years or so. I somehow was lugging around up to 2,400 tabs for much of last year and it handled it surprisingly well. Got down to 30 at one point, now back up to nearly 400 :/ Very rarely a website won't load, I just change the user agent to Chrome and refresh and it almost always works fine.

tgv 3y ago

Weird, I have very little problems with Firefox on macos. I had performance issues with Chrome for big tables. Firefox was sluggish, but Chrome took 30s to render it (about 3000 rows, 300 columns). I ended up writing something that displays a small view of the table using absolute positioned divs which depend on the scroll bar. Now it works smoothly on all browsers (including some older tablet). It was not a simple workaround, though. Orion is also webkit, but buggy, isn't it? I don't care for it.

jwells89 3y ago

Firefox is not my primary browser on macOS for similar reasons. Given how similar iOS is to macOS I wouldn’t expect the situation to be much different with a hypothetical Gecko-based version of Firefox for iOS — the performance and efficiency isn’t quite there compared to WebKit-based stuff. There’s platform-agnostic issues too, however. Firefox is my primary browser on Windows and Linux, but it has a pile of UI papercuts which I’ve kinda-fixed with userchrome.css hacks, and the result is underwhelming (as is the possibility of these hacks periodically breaking with updates). It’s enough of a frustration that forking Firefox to properly fix them would be tempting if keeping up with the firehose of security patches from mainline weren’t so daunting. My biggest wish is for Gecko to re-gain embedding support on desktop platforms so I can build my own browser around it, making keeping it secure as simple as updating dependencies.

butterfi 3y ago

I had to stop using Safari for development when I discovered the cache wasn’t clearing, even when I asked it to. That was a few years ago, and frankly, I’ve never looked back.

PakG1 3y ago

I've had one too many times where Firefox crashed and I lost all my tabs. Then had to go through weird steps to recover them. Too much annoyance. Just use Safari now, happy as a clam.

kzrdude 3y ago

Firefox proper is available for Mac but remember that on iOS the "firefox" is not using its own browser engine and there are not any add-ons available.

bee_rider 3y ago

Using Safari on Apple’s stuff seems fine. What really matters is not supporting the chrome-alike push toward monopoly.

Last5Digits 3y ago

Somewhat off topic, but thank you for putting into code what has been floating around in my imagination since high school. I haven't tested your project yet, but I really do hope that AI assisted roleplaying becomes a mainstay in the game development world. I got a taste when toying around with AI dungeon, and if this isn't the the next step in meaningful interactive storytelling, then I don't know what is.