5 ms·

You could just make them smaller. There's no rule saying you can't. There kind of is. Fuel efficiency requirements are stricter for smaller vehicles, creating

You could just make them smaller. There's no rule saying you can't. There kind of is. Fuel efficiency requirements are stricter for smaller vehicles, creating a perverse incentive to increase size. Here's a 2011 paper that predicted exactly what would happen: https://news.umich.edu/cafe-standards-create-profit-incentive-for-larger-vehicles/ https://news.umich.edu/cafe-standards-create-profit-incentiv...

Scoundreller 3y ago
And tax advantages for “business use” vehicles when they weigh over 6000 pounds: https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/list-of-vehicles-over-6000-lbs https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/list-of-vehicles-over-6000-lbs
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  I wonder where the weights they added to the Lincoln Aviator are to get it to 6001 pounds. Can they be removed?
  - qbrass 3y ago
    They added half a ton of hybrid system.
tastyfreeze 3y ago
This is the reason we are all driving beasts. For a small wheelbase vehicle to meet CAFE standards it has to get an unreasonable 90mpg or the manufacturer gets fined.
- gruez 3y ago
  > For a small wheelbase vehicle to meet CAFE standards it has to get an unreasonable 90mpg or the manufacturer gets fined. Source? At least according to this source[1], a car with footprint similar to a Honda Fit only needs to hit 51 mpg this year, which it currently meets[2][3]. There are certainly cars that are even smaller than a Honda Fit, and maybe those do need to hit 90mpg, but the existence of cars like the Honda Fit proves that you can have CAFE compliant cars that aren't "beasts". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#Updates_under_Biden_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy... [2] https://hondanews.eu/eu/fi/cars/media/pressreleases/1523/honda-jazz1 https://hondanews.eu/eu/fi/cars/media/pressreleases/1523/hon... [3] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=+4.5+L%2F100km+to+mpg https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=+4.5+L%2F100km+to+mpg
infecto 3y ago
I wish this was higher up. We love to blame consumers and automakers but in America a large part of the problem is the incentive driven by CAFE.
soupfordummies 3y ago
But then you have things like the newest Civic being considerably larger than my 10+ year old Accord. There's a size arms race for sure and it seems maybe it was caused by those requirements initially but at the end of 2023, I think it's only one factor at play.
- aperson_hello 3y ago
  This footprint based fuel economy is (one of the reasons) WHY the civic is so much larger
ericmay 3y ago
Thanks for sharing this here, it really does appear to be the primary culprit. If anything the larger the vehicle the more fuel efficient it should be, not the opposite. But that is just one part of the puzzle. The other is of course just normal marketing, advertising, etc. convincing people that they do lots of things outdoors that they don't actually do. Ford, GM, Toyota, Dodge, etc. are not the only ones guilty of this of course as Patagonia, REI, Apple (Ultra watch), and other companies that tout the Great American Outdoors have suckered us (me included) into these outdoor lifestyle brands as well. They all make fine products, of course, but people who tend to want trucks want them because of what they think they enable.
- vidanay 3y ago
  The marketing works. As one of the people who has done outdoors stuff for 40+ years, there has been a clear increase in participants. It has not necessarily been for the better
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > The other is of course just normal marketing, advertising, etc. convincing people that they do lots of things outdoors that they don't actually do. > but people who tend to want trucks want them because of what they think they enable Those two of statements, sandwiching a paragraph, are completely contradictory. If the marketing works (and I would claim it does) then people who want FOO want it because of marketing, not because of actual real need fulfillment. Bernays told us that propaganda/PR/marketing was about selling feelings, not facts. And he demonstrated to us all how well it worked in various domains. The auto industry has been selling more "freedom" than cars and trucks for longer than I have been alive.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Those two statements are not contradictory. I am also quite confused about your follow up comment as well since I haven’t written anything to the contrary here in my previous post.
falcolas 3y ago
Don't forget the chicken tax. > The Chicken Tax is a 25 percent tariff on light trucks ... imposed in 1964 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken. > ... since 1964 this form of protectionism has remained in place to give US domestic automakers an advantage over imported competitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Scoundreller 3y ago

And tax advantages for “business use” vehicles when they weigh over 6000 pounds: https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/list-of-vehicles-over-6000-lbs https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/list-of-vehicles-over-6000-lbs

Scoundreller 3y ago
I wonder where the weights they added to the Lincoln Aviator are to get it to 6001 pounds. Can they be removed?
- qbrass 3y ago
  They added half a ton of hybrid system.

tastyfreeze 3y ago

This is the reason we are all driving beasts. For a small wheelbase vehicle to meet CAFE standards it has to get an unreasonable 90mpg or the manufacturer gets fined.

gruez 3y ago
> For a small wheelbase vehicle to meet CAFE standards it has to get an unreasonable 90mpg or the manufacturer gets fined. Source? At least according to this source[1], a car with footprint similar to a Honda Fit only needs to hit 51 mpg this year, which it currently meets[2][3]. There are certainly cars that are even smaller than a Honda Fit, and maybe those do need to hit 90mpg, but the existence of cars like the Honda Fit proves that you can have CAFE compliant cars that aren't "beasts". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#Updates_under_Biden_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy... [2] https://hondanews.eu/eu/fi/cars/media/pressreleases/1523/honda-jazz1 https://hondanews.eu/eu/fi/cars/media/pressreleases/1523/hon... [3] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=+4.5+L%2F100km+to+mpg https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=+4.5+L%2F100km+to+mpg

infecto 3y ago

I wish this was higher up. We love to blame consumers and automakers but in America a large part of the problem is the incentive driven by CAFE.

soupfordummies 3y ago

But then you have things like the newest Civic being considerably larger than my 10+ year old Accord. There's a size arms race for sure and it seems maybe it was caused by those requirements initially but at the end of 2023, I think it's only one factor at play.

aperson_hello 3y ago
This footprint based fuel economy is (one of the reasons) WHY the civic is so much larger

ericmay 3y ago

Thanks for sharing this here, it really does appear to be the primary culprit. If anything the larger the vehicle the more fuel efficient it should be, not the opposite. But that is just one part of the puzzle. The other is of course just normal marketing, advertising, etc. convincing people that they do lots of things outdoors that they don't actually do. Ford, GM, Toyota, Dodge, etc. are not the only ones guilty of this of course as Patagonia, REI, Apple (Ultra watch), and other companies that tout the Great American Outdoors have suckered us (me included) into these outdoor lifestyle brands as well. They all make fine products, of course, but people who tend to want trucks want them because of what they think they enable.

vidanay 3y ago
The marketing works. As one of the people who has done outdoors stuff for 40+ years, there has been a clear increase in participants. It has not necessarily been for the better
drewcoo 3y ago
> The other is of course just normal marketing, advertising, etc. convincing people that they do lots of things outdoors that they don't actually do. > but people who tend to want trucks want them because of what they think they enable Those two of statements, sandwiching a paragraph, are completely contradictory. If the marketing works (and I would claim it does) then people who want FOO want it because of marketing, not because of actual real need fulfillment. Bernays told us that propaganda/PR/marketing was about selling feelings, not facts. And he demonstrated to us all how well it worked in various domains. The auto industry has been selling more "freedom" than cars and trucks for longer than I have been alive.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Those two statements are not contradictory. I am also quite confused about your follow up comment as well since I haven’t written anything to the contrary here in my previous post.

falcolas 3y ago

Don't forget the chicken tax. > The Chicken Tax is a 25 percent tariff on light trucks ... imposed in 1964 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken. > ... since 1964 this form of protectionism has remained in place to give US domestic automakers an advantage over imported competitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax