4 ms·

"While I’ll leave my personal opinion out of it, I do want to add a couple of notes." Do you believe that humans and (packs of) wolves can coexist in the same

by rsync 3y ago

"While I’ll leave my personal opinion out of it, I do want to add a couple of notes." Do you believe that humans and (packs of) wolves can coexist in the same space ? I am genuinely curious to hear what you think of an area inhabited by packs of wolves - would you engage in hiking/camping/recreation in that area after dark ? I am in favor of wolf reintroduction, in general, and think it is a noble goal. However, I believe that my support of wolf reintroduction is creating zones of non-habitation for humans. This is because my reading of the history of wolf/human interactions - throughout European and North American history - supports this very traditional view. What worries me is that many people may not understand that their support of wolf reintroduction creates an exclusion zone for humans. Certainly after dark. It is possible that not everyone would accept that trade-off the way that I have.

DavidPastrnak 3y ago
> I am genuinely curious to hear what you think of an area inhabited by packs of wolves - would you engage in hiking/camping/recreation in that area after dark ? My personal answer to this is yes - I have hiked / backcountry skied on multi-day tours in areas with active wolf populations. I also currently live in a small mountain town with an active mountain lion population that regularly makes its way through our roads and yards. I am more concerned with people, moose, and avalanches than I am either of those two. Of course, not everyone is going to have those same views.
- captainclam 3y ago
  Same here. The notion of wolves as a safety issue has literally not occurred to me until this person asked. I'm very alert to grizzly, moose, and mountain lions. Is there evidence that I should add wolves to that list?
  - runsWphotons 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks
    - reactordev 3y ago
      Attacks around the world: “Presumably a wolf ate a small boy, never to be seen from again” Attacks in the US: “A wolf approached a hunter who shot it to death, no injuries.” In all seriousness. I lived in Colorado for a long time as well. Up in the bowls of Silverthorne and Loveland. Boulder and the Estes Park region. Wolves will have the same safety precautions as bears, moose, and mountain lions. I’m more afraid of mountain lionesses than I am a wolf. At least with a wolf you’ll hear it coming.
      - runsWphotons 3y ago
        Wolves seem somewhat scary in a different way in that they can work together. I just posted that link since someone asked. I would be inclined to guess this won't be a big issue while the numbers are relatively small and there is plenty of non human food for them.
    - DavidPastrnak 3y ago
      For those that want to dig into these numbers more, there was a study completed by the Norwegian Institute for Nature Research on global wolf attacks between 2002–2020. Here is an excerpt from the text regarding Yellowstone but there is a lot of good information so I suggest taking a peek if this interests you. --- After many decades of absence wolves were reintroduced into Yellowstone National Park in 1995 and 1996. Wild Canadian wolves were used as the source, and animals were only exposed to minimal human contact before release. Since their release the population has rapidly expanded, and wolves have been surprisingly visible to tourists from the park’s road network. With over 4 million visitors a year the wolves of Yellowstone must be among the wolf populations in the world with the highest exposure to humans. Most wolves display a high degree of tolerance to humans, especially those on the road, but most do not approach people, and will keep a distance if people approach. Since reintroduction a total of 55 wolves have displayed behaviours that park authorities refer to as “habituated” (Anon 2003), implying that they approach people or do not move away when approached. Of these, 17 only displayed the behavior on a single occasion. 38 others were subject to hazing, or aversive conditioning, actions that ranged from loud noises to rubber bullets and cracker shells. In almost all cases this hazing changed the behavior of wolves such that problems ended. For two wolves however the park had to intervene and shoot them. Both appeared to have become food habituated, associating humans with food, with one wolf ripping open some hikers’ backpack to access food and another chasing a bicycle. Most of the wolves which needed hazing were yearlings, a life cycle stage when individuals are most prone to learning new habits. Despite the large wolf population and the huge numbers of visitors there have been no attacks on people (Smith et al. 2020). --- REF: (PDF WARNING) https://y86aca.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WolfAttacksUpdate.pdf https://y86aca.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/20... If you'd like to look up the PDF on your own, the title is "Wolf attacks on humans: an update for 2002–2020"
pcmaffey 3y ago
That would be a wonderful outcome, if so. We need to protect our ecosystems from humans if they're to survive. However, it won't happen because of wolf attacks. The big bad wolf is a fairy tale... Moose are orders of magnitude more dangerous to humans than wolves, and their reintroduction in Colorado does not keep humans away from wild spaces.
captainclam 3y ago
In Montana, where this is a very hot issue, I have never heard of any concerns about the safety of humans around wolves, even from very vocal anti-wolf parties. The conflict arises from wolves' impact on our hunting and ranching interests. They also kill domestic dog breeds (coyotes do this as well).
bnecessity 3y ago
[flagged]
ip26 3y ago
FWIW, there are multiple wolf packs in Glacier National Park. There is mandatory grizzly safety education and you are required to carry bear spray when venturing into the backcountry. Nobody ever said a word about wolves.
throwaway2037 3y ago
Replace wolf with bear. Do you draw the same conclusions? This already exists in many places in North America.
303uru 3y ago
I hike around mountain lions, bears (including grizzlies), venomous snakes, etc... I think this argument is compelling only to someone who doesn't go outdoors in the first place.

by rsync 3y ago

DavidPastrnak 3y ago

> I am genuinely curious to hear what you think of an area inhabited by packs of wolves - would you engage in hiking/camping/recreation in that area after dark ? My personal answer to this is yes - I have hiked / backcountry skied on multi-day tours in areas with active wolf populations. I also currently live in a small mountain town with an active mountain lion population that regularly makes its way through our roads and yards. I am more concerned with people, moose, and avalanches than I am either of those two. Of course, not everyone is going to have those same views.

captainclam 3y ago
Same here. The notion of wolves as a safety issue has literally not occurred to me until this person asked. I'm very alert to grizzly, moose, and mountain lions. Is there evidence that I should add wolves to that list?
- runsWphotons 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks
  - reactordev 3y ago
    Attacks around the world: “Presumably a wolf ate a small boy, never to be seen from again” Attacks in the US: “A wolf approached a hunter who shot it to death, no injuries.” In all seriousness. I lived in Colorado for a long time as well. Up in the bowls of Silverthorne and Loveland. Boulder and the Estes Park region. Wolves will have the same safety precautions as bears, moose, and mountain lions. I’m more afraid of mountain lionesses than I am a wolf. At least with a wolf you’ll hear it coming.
    - runsWphotons 3y ago
      Wolves seem somewhat scary in a different way in that they can work together. I just posted that link since someone asked. I would be inclined to guess this won't be a big issue while the numbers are relatively small and there is plenty of non human food for them.
  - DavidPastrnak 3y ago
    For those that want to dig into these numbers more, there was a study completed by the Norwegian Institute for Nature Research on global wolf attacks between 2002–2020. Here is an excerpt from the text regarding Yellowstone but there is a lot of good information so I suggest taking a peek if this interests you. --- After many decades of absence wolves were reintroduced into Yellowstone National Park in 1995 and 1996. Wild Canadian wolves were used as the source, and animals were only exposed to minimal human contact before release. Since their release the population has rapidly expanded, and wolves have been surprisingly visible to tourists from the park’s road network. With over 4 million visitors a year the wolves of Yellowstone must be among the wolf populations in the world with the highest exposure to humans. Most wolves display a high degree of tolerance to humans, especially those on the road, but most do not approach people, and will keep a distance if people approach. Since reintroduction a total of 55 wolves have displayed behaviours that park authorities refer to as “habituated” (Anon 2003), implying that they approach people or do not move away when approached. Of these, 17 only displayed the behavior on a single occasion. 38 others were subject to hazing, or aversive conditioning, actions that ranged from loud noises to rubber bullets and cracker shells. In almost all cases this hazing changed the behavior of wolves such that problems ended. For two wolves however the park had to intervene and shoot them. Both appeared to have become food habituated, associating humans with food, with one wolf ripping open some hikers’ backpack to access food and another chasing a bicycle. Most of the wolves which needed hazing were yearlings, a life cycle stage when individuals are most prone to learning new habits. Despite the large wolf population and the huge numbers of visitors there have been no attacks on people (Smith et al. 2020). --- REF: (PDF WARNING) https://y86aca.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WolfAttacksUpdate.pdf https://y86aca.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/20... If you'd like to look up the PDF on your own, the title is "Wolf attacks on humans: an update for 2002–2020"

pcmaffey 3y ago

That would be a wonderful outcome, if so. We need to protect our ecosystems from humans if they're to survive. However, it won't happen because of wolf attacks. The big bad wolf is a fairy tale... Moose are orders of magnitude more dangerous to humans than wolves, and their reintroduction in Colorado does not keep humans away from wild spaces.

captainclam 3y ago

In Montana, where this is a very hot issue, I have never heard of any concerns about the safety of humans around wolves, even from very vocal anti-wolf parties. The conflict arises from wolves' impact on our hunting and ranching interests. They also kill domestic dog breeds (coyotes do this as well).

bnecessity 3y ago

[flagged]

ip26 3y ago

FWIW, there are multiple wolf packs in Glacier National Park. There is mandatory grizzly safety education and you are required to carry bear spray when venturing into the backcountry. Nobody ever said a word about wolves.

throwaway2037 3y ago

Replace wolf with bear. Do you draw the same conclusions? This already exists in many places in North America.

303uru 3y ago

I hike around mountain lions, bears (including grizzlies), venomous snakes, etc... I think this argument is compelling only to someone who doesn't go outdoors in the first place.