5 ms·

Amazing document; these are the sorts of things i find in my own experience as i try to help my sister out of poverty. I'm very glad that these sort of papers

Amazing document; these are the sorts of things i find in my own experience as i try to help my sister out of poverty. I'm very glad that these sort of papers come out and are reasoned about. The "psychology" is perhaps the ONLY aspect that keeps poverty going, and it's made worse by people removing agency, introducing pointless stress, and in general just poo-pooing any attempts to climb out of the pit.

wolverine876 3y ago
> The "psychology" is perhaps the ONLY aspect that keeps poverty going Is there any basis for that? What about overwhelming bills and other liabilities, lack of marketable skills, illnesses (including addictions), lack of opportunities, lack of parenting and education, of food, etc. The data overwhelmingly says differently: The predictor of success is not psychology but pre-existing wealth and opportunity. Internationally, the difference is even more overwhelming. In my experience, it is a (condescencing, lazy) fantasy of the wealthy that poverty is just a matter of thinking differently, that anyone can do it because, after all, the wealthy person didn't have those obstacles. I say it's lazy because it doesn't take much examination of the data to see what wealth depends on.
- hypertexthero 3y ago
  Thomas Picketty agrees: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty-Capital https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty-C... We need a basic income.
  - drekipus 3y ago
    Basic income would only be used to enslave other countries that don't implement it (much like sweatshops/consumerism we have now) If everyone implements it, then it's pointless, because currency only works when there's a potential difference (much like electricity). Basic income detracts from the conversation; we're talking about issues and you've got your favourite solution that is inevitably going to be shoe-horned into the conversation.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      > If everyone implements [basic income], then it's pointless, because currency only works when there's a potential difference (much like electricity). No: Just because the butcher and the baker and the candlestick-maker all get a minimal $X per year does not mean that you've created a village of economic clones where trade is dead and currency is pointless. They will continue to have different ways of making money, different assets, different needs/expenses, different price-preferences, etc.
- satellite2 3y ago
  It's a very pertinent answer that should definitely be addressed to people having never lived poverty. On the other hand there is a real, violent effect of poverty which to state simply, somehow make it more violent to have to say no to some expense because you can't afford it than because you just let it pass in exchange for future cash flows.
- drekipus 3y ago
  > What about overwhelming bills and other liabilities, lack of marketable skills, illnesses (including addictions), lack of opportunities, lack of parenting and education, of food, etc. These are all issues that can be overcome with an absurd amount of effort, but are often exacerbated by the psychology of the individual and their surroundings/family/support. Removing all agency from the person gives them a reason to stay in poverty as it is far more comfortable to know that "i am poor" and not be responsible for it, compared to facing discomfort and climbing out of the pit. The basis of this is my own experience (as you quoted yours) as I grew up homeless along with my mother and sister. I have lived this life, and I'd be very surprised if you had any real, (non-phoney) experience with what you're talking about. My mother is now dead, I escaped first and am now well off; I am bringing my sister out of poverty by trying to combat those very issues (addiction, lack of skills, education). In this day and age it is VERY easy to give an abundance of support for addiction, Education is free (via youtube and the like), learning to do things, bill support, financial services. -- The number one blocker is getting her to get up, keep calm, carry on, and get through to complete any single item on that list. I can send her all the money in the world and it doesn't mean jack shit. I bought her a $1500 computer so she can learn about emails, and she hocked it for $300 because she was short for cash one day. I find "pre-existing wealth and opportunities" a much lazier answer then you'd find everybody would generally trend upwards; which we have to a small margin. But it's most often that rich families meet inter-generational demise. It is much easier for us all to be poor, than for us to all be rich; we can take comfort that "we just got dealt a bad hand, it's not our fault".
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >These are all issues that can be overcome with an absurd amount of effort [...] >I find "pre-existing wealth and opportunities" a much lazier answer How is this consistent? It seems self-evident that if one person faces issues that the other didn't and those issues require "an absurd amount of effort" to overcome, the first person was at a significant disadvantage.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      There’s little doubt that becoming an adult with little educational preparation and scarce financial resources is very much harder than being well-equipped with both. I don’t think GP is disagreeing with that, but rather with the premise that poor people in 2027 are poor because there was nothing they could do in 2024, but rather that with an amount of devoted and concerted effort, some can lift themselves out in 2027 well above where they entered 2024. You’re making a “b” argument. GP is making an “m” argument, while acknowledging the effect of “b”.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Many rich famlies don't believe in supporting their kids, but with a good public education those kids do well. The majority help their kids, but not all.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Many rich famlies don't believe in supporting their kids What does that mean? No prep school, health care, high school, parenting, nannying, family trips to Europe? Are the kids just left on the street? People I know who have done that stopped supporting kids after college, at least for awhile, or older generations left it to their kid to work their way through college - not a viable option these days. But the first 18 years have all the benefits of wealth. And anyway, how many families are we talking about? Go to the local rich neighborhood and ask - my guess is you won't find more than maybe 1% or less.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Working your way through college is still a viable option. This usually takes more than 4 years. I literally know people who have done it. It typically requires going to community college first, then transferring to a state university part time. If you're in an expensive area then move.
      - zztop44 3y ago
        That’s something you do if you’re poor. Not if you’re rich but your parents want to teach you the value of hard work and self sufficiency.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Jost poblic schools no special prep school. Public school includes high school. Health care is everywhere. Trips to Europe don't setkids for a rich life. we are talking a small amount. You won't find them in rich meiborhoods, they often live in poor neiporhoods, but the parents have money.
      - 3y ago
- wharvle 3y ago
  I think it’s kinda true that poverty is psychologically sustained in the US, if we allow that making very cold choices (let mom die some years sooner and in worse conditions; let a son or cousin rot in jail rather than paying for expensive rehab required for release; let your nephew go to foster care rather than stepping in to help; that kind of thing) is psychology, of a kind, and discounting disability or nigh-disability. Though that’s already a lot of caveats. I think it’s far less-true that not-poverty is sustained by psychology. That is, a fair proportion of the not-poor would remain poor if placed in the circumstances of poverty. This suggests that removing or relieving the circumstances of poverty might also work, at least for some set of those in poverty, even if it is indeed largely (within some substantial boundaries) sustained by a kind of psychology.
- globalnode 3y ago
  yeah because the wealthy/lucky want to just imagine that we all live in a meritocracy so they can blame the poor and feel self assured that they deserve their place in society. whereas its mainly luck and circumstance.
- more_corn 3y ago
  Having grown up poor I can attest that everything is more expensive when you’re poor. It’s like we built the system to keep the poor down. When I got my first minimum wage paycheck I was astounded by how much tax I had to pay. In what universe does it make sense to tax the crap out of poverty wages? How much tax did Amazon pay last year. Oh right NOTHING. I worked so hard for that and I get slapped while the government hands out tax benefits to corporations like they’re beads at Marti Gras. Poor people can’t afford a good car so they buy a crap one. Why do they need a car? Because they can’t afford to live near the city center where jobs are. Why can’t they take the bus? Shift ends at 1030, last bus at 10. Oh also it takes 2.5 hours on the bus vs 20 min in the car. Which means less time to make money. God help you if you’re in school too. Oh study on the bus. Great. Sure actually did that. You ever study on the bus? It blows. So yeah, car as soon as you can scrape up a couple grand. Crap car blows a head gasket. Now you’re in the hole for 6 months. Don’t have the savings? Predatory interest rates. Miss a payment because it’s that or miss rent and freeze to death? Now your interest rates are even higher. Why does poverty exist? Because our system makes it exist. Sure there are psychological reasons, and mental health reasons and addiction reasons, but I tell you what, digging out is hard. Super hard. If it were less hard to dig out, we’d have a hell of a lot less poverty.
  - drekipus 3y ago
    This. A huge amount. (Well done on your successes so far) I had to stop my sister from buying yet another $500 shitbox. Told them to get affairs in order and sort out finance to get a proper good car, something modern, and get it insured. Finally got to a point where we got paperwork going and started filling out forms, and... Well it turns out the partner had $25,000 debt that he was hoping would just go away if he could ignore it (consoles, phones, nikes, et al) (So in the end I got them a good, used 2019 i30 car, and helped them get it insured, and showed them that this would've been a simple weekly transaction had they had their affairs in order.) I have a belief that "the system" wants to have poor people around, purposely keep them down. Someone's gotta receive "benefits" to keep the system moving. This is my way of fighting against the system, LOL.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
hiddencost 3y ago
I dunno. I knew someone who was chronically homeless until an infected tooth got pulled. Suddenly he wasn't in pain all the time with an infection near his brain and he got into housing and went to school
- drekipus 3y ago
  I can totally believe that. What encouraged him to get the tooth dealt with?

wolverine876 3y ago

> The "psychology" is perhaps the ONLY aspect that keeps poverty going Is there any basis for that? What about overwhelming bills and other liabilities, lack of marketable skills, illnesses (including addictions), lack of opportunities, lack of parenting and education, of food, etc. The data overwhelmingly says differently: The predictor of success is not psychology but pre-existing wealth and opportunity. Internationally, the difference is even more overwhelming. In my experience, it is a (condescencing, lazy) fantasy of the wealthy that poverty is just a matter of thinking differently, that anyone can do it because, after all, the wealthy person didn't have those obstacles. I say it's lazy because it doesn't take much examination of the data to see what wealth depends on.

hypertexthero 3y ago
Thomas Picketty agrees: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty-Capital https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty-C... We need a basic income.
- drekipus 3y ago
  Basic income would only be used to enslave other countries that don't implement it (much like sweatshops/consumerism we have now) If everyone implements it, then it's pointless, because currency only works when there's a potential difference (much like electricity). Basic income detracts from the conversation; we're talking about issues and you've got your favourite solution that is inevitably going to be shoe-horned into the conversation.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    > If everyone implements [basic income], then it's pointless, because currency only works when there's a potential difference (much like electricity). No: Just because the butcher and the baker and the candlestick-maker all get a minimal $X per year does not mean that you've created a village of economic clones where trade is dead and currency is pointless. They will continue to have different ways of making money, different assets, different needs/expenses, different price-preferences, etc.
satellite2 3y ago
It's a very pertinent answer that should definitely be addressed to people having never lived poverty. On the other hand there is a real, violent effect of poverty which to state simply, somehow make it more violent to have to say no to some expense because you can't afford it than because you just let it pass in exchange for future cash flows.
drekipus 3y ago
> What about overwhelming bills and other liabilities, lack of marketable skills, illnesses (including addictions), lack of opportunities, lack of parenting and education, of food, etc. These are all issues that can be overcome with an absurd amount of effort, but are often exacerbated by the psychology of the individual and their surroundings/family/support. Removing all agency from the person gives them a reason to stay in poverty as it is far more comfortable to know that "i am poor" and not be responsible for it, compared to facing discomfort and climbing out of the pit. The basis of this is my own experience (as you quoted yours) as I grew up homeless along with my mother and sister. I have lived this life, and I'd be very surprised if you had any real, (non-phoney) experience with what you're talking about. My mother is now dead, I escaped first and am now well off; I am bringing my sister out of poverty by trying to combat those very issues (addiction, lack of skills, education). In this day and age it is VERY easy to give an abundance of support for addiction, Education is free (via youtube and the like), learning to do things, bill support, financial services. -- The number one blocker is getting her to get up, keep calm, carry on, and get through to complete any single item on that list. I can send her all the money in the world and it doesn't mean jack shit. I bought her a $1500 computer so she can learn about emails, and she hocked it for $300 because she was short for cash one day. I find "pre-existing wealth and opportunities" a much lazier answer then you'd find everybody would generally trend upwards; which we have to a small margin. But it's most often that rich families meet inter-generational demise. It is much easier for us all to be poor, than for us to all be rich; we can take comfort that "we just got dealt a bad hand, it's not our fault".
- thfuran 3y ago
  >These are all issues that can be overcome with an absurd amount of effort [...] >I find "pre-existing wealth and opportunities" a much lazier answer How is this consistent? It seems self-evident that if one person faces issues that the other didn't and those issues require "an absurd amount of effort" to overcome, the first person was at a significant disadvantage.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    There’s little doubt that becoming an adult with little educational preparation and scarce financial resources is very much harder than being well-equipped with both. I don’t think GP is disagreeing with that, but rather with the premise that poor people in 2027 are poor because there was nothing they could do in 2024, but rather that with an amount of devoted and concerted effort, some can lift themselves out in 2027 well above where they entered 2024. You’re making a “b” argument. GP is making an “m” argument, while acknowledging the effect of “b”.
bluGill 3y ago
Many rich famlies don't believe in supporting their kids, but with a good public education those kids do well. The majority help their kids, but not all.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Many rich famlies don't believe in supporting their kids What does that mean? No prep school, health care, high school, parenting, nannying, family trips to Europe? Are the kids just left on the street? People I know who have done that stopped supporting kids after college, at least for awhile, or older generations left it to their kid to work their way through college - not a viable option these days. But the first 18 years have all the benefits of wealth. And anyway, how many families are we talking about? Go to the local rich neighborhood and ask - my guess is you won't find more than maybe 1% or less.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Working your way through college is still a viable option. This usually takes more than 4 years. I literally know people who have done it. It typically requires going to community college first, then transferring to a state university part time. If you're in an expensive area then move.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      That’s something you do if you’re poor. Not if you’re rich but your parents want to teach you the value of hard work and self sufficiency.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Jost poblic schools no special prep school. Public school includes high school. Health care is everywhere. Trips to Europe don't setkids for a rich life. we are talking a small amount. You won't find them in rich meiborhoods, they often live in poor neiporhoods, but the parents have money.
    - 3y ago
wharvle 3y ago
I think it’s kinda true that poverty is psychologically sustained in the US, if we allow that making very cold choices (let mom die some years sooner and in worse conditions; let a son or cousin rot in jail rather than paying for expensive rehab required for release; let your nephew go to foster care rather than stepping in to help; that kind of thing) is psychology, of a kind, and discounting disability or nigh-disability. Though that’s already a lot of caveats. I think it’s far less-true that not-poverty is sustained by psychology. That is, a fair proportion of the not-poor would remain poor if placed in the circumstances of poverty. This suggests that removing or relieving the circumstances of poverty might also work, at least for some set of those in poverty, even if it is indeed largely (within some substantial boundaries) sustained by a kind of psychology.
globalnode 3y ago
yeah because the wealthy/lucky want to just imagine that we all live in a meritocracy so they can blame the poor and feel self assured that they deserve their place in society. whereas its mainly luck and circumstance.
more_corn 3y ago
Having grown up poor I can attest that everything is more expensive when you’re poor. It’s like we built the system to keep the poor down. When I got my first minimum wage paycheck I was astounded by how much tax I had to pay. In what universe does it make sense to tax the crap out of poverty wages? How much tax did Amazon pay last year. Oh right NOTHING. I worked so hard for that and I get slapped while the government hands out tax benefits to corporations like they’re beads at Marti Gras. Poor people can’t afford a good car so they buy a crap one. Why do they need a car? Because they can’t afford to live near the city center where jobs are. Why can’t they take the bus? Shift ends at 1030, last bus at 10. Oh also it takes 2.5 hours on the bus vs 20 min in the car. Which means less time to make money. God help you if you’re in school too. Oh study on the bus. Great. Sure actually did that. You ever study on the bus? It blows. So yeah, car as soon as you can scrape up a couple grand. Crap car blows a head gasket. Now you’re in the hole for 6 months. Don’t have the savings? Predatory interest rates. Miss a payment because it’s that or miss rent and freeze to death? Now your interest rates are even higher. Why does poverty exist? Because our system makes it exist. Sure there are psychological reasons, and mental health reasons and addiction reasons, but I tell you what, digging out is hard. Super hard. If it were less hard to dig out, we’d have a hell of a lot less poverty.
- drekipus 3y ago
  This. A huge amount. (Well done on your successes so far) I had to stop my sister from buying yet another $500 shitbox. Told them to get affairs in order and sort out finance to get a proper good car, something modern, and get it insured. Finally got to a point where we got paperwork going and started filling out forms, and... Well it turns out the partner had $25,000 debt that he was hoping would just go away if he could ignore it (consoles, phones, nikes, et al) (So in the end I got them a good, used 2019 i30 car, and helped them get it insured, and showed them that this would've been a simple weekly transaction had they had their affairs in order.) I have a belief that "the system" wants to have poor people around, purposely keep them down. Someone's gotta receive "benefits" to keep the system moving. This is my way of fighting against the system, LOL.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

hiddencost 3y ago

I dunno. I knew someone who was chronically homeless until an infected tooth got pulled. Suddenly he wasn't in pain all the time with an infection near his brain and he got into housing and went to school

drekipus 3y ago
I can totally believe that. What encouraged him to get the tooth dealt with?