6 ms·

mRNA will eventually save the day for everyone, including for perfectly healthy individuals, but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues,

by azan_ 3y ago

mRNA will eventually save the day for everyone, including for perfectly healthy individuals, but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues, not overweight etc. etc. it is in my opinion still too risky to take just like that. It's an interesting take. From what we know so far, the risk from taking vaccine is much smaller than from covid infection. You might counter this with highlighting the "so far" part, but keep in mind that many studies keep coming out with surprises not only regarding vaccine side effects, but also negative long term effects of covid.

mewpmewp2 3y ago
There's a key difference here that cancer mRNA vaccine you are taking after you've been diagnosed with cancer. Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. If there's a 1/10,000 chance of giving you a sore shoulder that would be worse in the calculations if you are for sure to be isolated from being anywhere near the virus.
- azan_ 3y ago
  Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    > Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19. What about a person living in simple solitude who works remotely and orders everything in? This is a realistic, non-absurd scenario and they would possibly risk getting Covid-19 on their way to the appointment of getting the vaccine.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      I don’t think anyone would care about such a person opting not to get a vaccine. But this describes, pretty much by definition, a very small portion of a society.
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        It's not about what anyone cares, but about making calculated decisions.
        ethanbond 3y ago
        What
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        For an individual it is a formula of should_vaccinate = (risk_of_getting_covid_19 * bad_outcomes) - (bad_outcomes_from_vaccines + risk_of_getting_covid_19_after_vaccine * bad_outcomes_of_covid_19_after_vaccine) > 0 On the group level you would have to consider the damage on the group level as well from not getting vaccinated due to increase of covid-19 spread, and increased hospitalisation levels. On the global communication and messaging level I agree you should tell everyone to vaccinate as you can't easily provide everyone with those calculators. And not to mention people not being able to come up with correct values for those factors themselves.
        tempestn 3y ago
        However, pretty much any real world person doing those calculations and arriving at the conclusion that they're better off not getting the vaccine is engaging in motivated rationalization rather than reasoning. Almost no one is actually living as a hermit, unlikely to ever be exposed to covid. And just about everyone who will be exposed will be safer having had the vaccine, considering all the risks and probabilities you listed.
- neverrroot 3y ago
  I would argue that any person isolating for 10 years will for sure have very significant health drawbacks, so that would also have to be factored in.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    You mean in terms of immune system not having been exposed to enough pathogens?
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      Not only, psychological consequences, lack of socialization, potentially lack of sun exposure, lack of getting medical checkups or adequate treatment etc.
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        Would depend on the individual right. Not everyone requires socialisation. Isolation doesn't mean lack of sun exposure. Medical checkups would depend on the age and healthiness of the person.
        neverrroot 3y ago
        I was talking about risks in general population, those are not zero, in spite of some individuals who post factum may turn out just fine after 10 years of isolation.
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        General population wouldn't strive for being isolated in the first place though.
      - ryukafalz 3y ago
        Along with the health drawbacks of a sedentary lifestyle, unless you're vigilant about getting enough intentional exercise to replace the walking around we do over the course of a typical day outside the house.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hammock 3y ago
>the risk from taking vaccine is much smaller than from covid infection Does that matter if you get covid anyway?
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  Yes. The vaccine trains your immune system to create antibodies used to fight off the disease. Already having those antibodies when the virus appears means that it will not last as long and the symptoms will not be as severe. Without the vaccine, your body has to create those antibodies while you are already sick, and that takes time. This gives the virus a huge head start.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    Plus, the trick that this virus uses to kill is that it kicks off a cytokine storm, which is far more likely if your body is racing the virus to eradicate it than if your immune system is already primed and squashes the virus when its infection volume is small and localized. We're not just talking the flu-like symptoms here, the most relevant symptoms are "risk of death decreased."
OCASMv2 3y ago
It's not a dichotomy. The vaccine is effectively only for a couple of months so you have to compound the effects of the vaccine PLUS the effects of infection. You also don't know if the effects of the vaccine are cumulative with each new booster. And that's even assuming it's effective in the first place. The "it reduces symptoms" mantra is gaslighting since the whole point of its accelerated approval and forced application was for the reduction of transmission.
OrvalWintermute 3y ago
I'll tell that to my colleague that got Covid vaccine induced blood clots, and has been told he will be on blood thinners for life. While this is anecdotal, the amount of people I know personally that have told me they had significant health issues with a Covid vaccine or covid booster is weird.
- throwaway29812 3y ago
  Blood clotting in COVID is higher than instances of Vaccine induced clotting, in every measure. For every example like your colleague, there are many more for COVID itself.
  - kemotep 3y ago
    Which begs the question, how do they know that it was vaccine induced blood clots and not covid or any other possible cause of blood clots? Since at the same time mass vaccination rolled out, essentially all lockdowns were lifted and at least speaking for myself, that is when I caught Covid (and got sick in general again, no colds for almost two years was nice).
    - throwaway29812 3y ago
      It would take a specific study isolating people that got the vaccine but never tested positive for COVID, which of course is open to some misreporting (1/3 of COVID cases are asymptomatic and most likely never identified).

by azan_ 3y ago

mewpmewp2 3y ago

There's a key difference here that cancer mRNA vaccine you are taking after you've been diagnosed with cancer. Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. If there's a 1/10,000 chance of giving you a sore shoulder that would be worse in the calculations if you are for sure to be isolated from being anywhere near the virus.

azan_ 3y ago
Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  > Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19. What about a person living in simple solitude who works remotely and orders everything in? This is a realistic, non-absurd scenario and they would possibly risk getting Covid-19 on their way to the appointment of getting the vaccine.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    I don’t think anyone would care about such a person opting not to get a vaccine. But this describes, pretty much by definition, a very small portion of a society.
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      It's not about what anyone cares, but about making calculated decisions.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        What
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        For an individual it is a formula of should_vaccinate = (risk_of_getting_covid_19 * bad_outcomes) - (bad_outcomes_from_vaccines + risk_of_getting_covid_19_after_vaccine * bad_outcomes_of_covid_19_after_vaccine) > 0 On the group level you would have to consider the damage on the group level as well from not getting vaccinated due to increase of covid-19 spread, and increased hospitalisation levels. On the global communication and messaging level I agree you should tell everyone to vaccinate as you can't easily provide everyone with those calculators. And not to mention people not being able to come up with correct values for those factors themselves.
        tempestn 3y ago
        However, pretty much any real world person doing those calculations and arriving at the conclusion that they're better off not getting the vaccine is engaging in motivated rationalization rather than reasoning. Almost no one is actually living as a hermit, unlikely to ever be exposed to covid. And just about everyone who will be exposed will be safer having had the vaccine, considering all the risks and probabilities you listed.
neverrroot 3y ago
I would argue that any person isolating for 10 years will for sure have very significant health drawbacks, so that would also have to be factored in.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  You mean in terms of immune system not having been exposed to enough pathogens?
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    Not only, psychological consequences, lack of socialization, potentially lack of sun exposure, lack of getting medical checkups or adequate treatment etc.
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      Would depend on the individual right. Not everyone requires socialisation. Isolation doesn't mean lack of sun exposure. Medical checkups would depend on the age and healthiness of the person.
      - neverrroot 3y ago
        I was talking about risks in general population, those are not zero, in spite of some individuals who post factum may turn out just fine after 10 years of isolation.
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        General population wouldn't strive for being isolated in the first place though.
    - ryukafalz 3y ago
      Along with the health drawbacks of a sedentary lifestyle, unless you're vigilant about getting enough intentional exercise to replace the walking around we do over the course of a typical day outside the house.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hammock 3y ago

>the risk from taking vaccine is much smaller than from covid infection Does that matter if you get covid anyway?

RoyalHenOil 3y ago
Yes. The vaccine trains your immune system to create antibodies used to fight off the disease. Already having those antibodies when the virus appears means that it will not last as long and the symptoms will not be as severe. Without the vaccine, your body has to create those antibodies while you are already sick, and that takes time. This gives the virus a huge head start.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  Plus, the trick that this virus uses to kill is that it kicks off a cytokine storm, which is far more likely if your body is racing the virus to eradicate it than if your immune system is already primed and squashes the virus when its infection volume is small and localized. We're not just talking the flu-like symptoms here, the most relevant symptoms are "risk of death decreased."

OCASMv2 3y ago

It's not a dichotomy. The vaccine is effectively only for a couple of months so you have to compound the effects of the vaccine PLUS the effects of infection. You also don't know if the effects of the vaccine are cumulative with each new booster. And that's even assuming it's effective in the first place. The "it reduces symptoms" mantra is gaslighting since the whole point of its accelerated approval and forced application was for the reduction of transmission.

OrvalWintermute 3y ago

I'll tell that to my colleague that got Covid vaccine induced blood clots, and has been told he will be on blood thinners for life. While this is anecdotal, the amount of people I know personally that have told me they had significant health issues with a Covid vaccine or covid booster is weird.

throwaway29812 3y ago
Blood clotting in COVID is higher than instances of Vaccine induced clotting, in every measure. For every example like your colleague, there are many more for COVID itself.
- kemotep 3y ago
  Which begs the question, how do they know that it was vaccine induced blood clots and not covid or any other possible cause of blood clots? Since at the same time mass vaccination rolled out, essentially all lockdowns were lifted and at least speaking for myself, that is when I caught Covid (and got sick in general again, no colds for almost two years was nice).
  - throwaway29812 3y ago
    It would take a specific study isolating people that got the vaccine but never tested positive for COVID, which of course is open to some misreporting (1/3 of COVID cases are asymptomatic and most likely never identified).