4 ms·

Israel grants Intel $3.2B for new $25B chip plant

10 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

hypeit 3y ago
[flagged]
- DamnYuppie 3y ago
  Many people in the "west" do not consider Palestinians as past, present, or future allies. In fact most view them as a threat to western ideas.
  - hypeit 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - kmos17 3y ago
      Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. As justified as you may think your morale position is, it does not justify promulgating another genocide as the answer. The labels of colonialism and genocide to what is happening there completely close you off to an actual honest discussion of the situation. Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition?
      - mrkeen 3y ago
        > Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition? I'm not sure. Just reading it now, it looks like Palestine was cut in half, and half got given to the Jews. Was my reading incorrect? How should I tie that action to colonialism?
        kmos17 3y ago
        I meant that the simplistic view that Israel is a colonial state is misguided and distorting the discussion. When the partition happened jewish populations were also forced into exile by Arab states yet this is never even discussed alongside the Nakba: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-ar... That doesn’t excuse what Israel does in Gaza or the West Bank, but it is not a simple evil Israel vs. oppressed Palestinians situation that it is made out to be, and this is not a colonial state vs. indigenous population struggle either, both sides have valid claims and are mostly indigenous to the land being fought over. The narrative that this is a colonial struggle is extremely dangerous (what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state?) and it will not lead to a solution since it is a complete non-starter for Israel. Labelling what is happening - which is horrific enough as it is - a genocide is also a vast exaggeration at best and really inaccurate, and it is a very powerful propaganda tool being used to dehumanize Israelis as a whole (if it is genocide they are acting inhumanely and anything done to them should be ignored or dismissed like the reaction to Oct 7 shows).
        Qem 3y ago
        > what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state? No. To follow the steps of South Africa, and end apartheid.
        hypeit 3y ago
        [flagged]
        kmos17 3y ago
        If you are going to make such hyperbolic statements as saying the current rate of killing is faster than the nazis, you might want to do a quick google search first: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 And again think of what you are stating as fact, you are parroting a very single sided view of history, that Israel is a colonial state, but even if you were right, what is your solution? There are effectively two states with millions of natives, and they both vehemently do not want to live together in a single state.
      - Qem 3y ago
        > Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. No. Just like thinking apartheid South Africa as racist didn't deny it the right to exist as a nation. South Africa still exists as a nation, as any online map shows. It just don't exist as an apartheid regime anymore. Israel can do the same.
        kmos17 3y ago
        Yes apartheid is a label that can be applied but only when talking about the occupied territories, what Israel is doing in the West Bank is a system of population control that seems very close to or worst than apartheid, and with the colonist movement backed by the Israeli army it is effectively a form of ethnic cleansing, albeit a very ineffective one so far considering the growth of the Palestinian population. But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Calling Israel an apartheid state because of what they do in the West Bank is a stretch, it would be like calling the USA a military fascist dictatorship because of what they did in Iraq. And regardless of wanting to think of the whole of Palestine as a single country, the most important fact is the Palestinians and Israeli have absolutely no desire to live together in a single state, the only option the vast majority of Palestinians want is a single Palestinian state with no Israelis or jews (from the river to the sea). The Israelis are split but most favor a two state solution. So your simplistic solution is not one that is grounded in any reality, it is a pure fantasy and projection of western virtue, and if you had any understanding of the actual situation you would realize that what you are advocating for (the dissolution of Israel and Palestine into a single state) will only happen with the genocide (an actual one) of one of the two populations fighting over that piece of land. Maybe it can happen one day with the two populations living in peace, but that is certainly not the case now, and all the hysteric propaganda is making it even less likely.
        Qem 3y ago
        > But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have a different assessment: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... Amnesty Q&A on Israel's Apartheid: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-of-domination-and-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israel...
    - throw310822 3y ago
      The West has found colonialism and ethnic cleansing unacceptable for a long time... except for Israel, which capitalises on the Holocaust and manages to engage in both while depicting itself as the eternal victim.
- mrkeen 3y ago
  Sounds great, but I don't think Israel suffered a net PR loss in the last few months. It all depends on your priors. If you think of Israel as a country, you could totally get behind a tit-for-tat, heavy-handed retaliation and forgive them for pretending it's "self defence". If you think of it as a 50+ year-old ongoing invasion/genocide, then you'd feel differently.
  - cornercasechase 3y ago
    Opinion has continually shifted away from Israel since Oct 7th according to polls: https://archive.is/6b4lS https://archive.is/6b4lS (Washington Post article) What’s not measured is how strongly people under the age of 45 feel about Israel. I know my social group went from abstract Palestinian support to extreme Palestinian support as they’ve been radicalized by Israel’s actions since Oct 7th.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    > If you think of Israel as a country, you could totally get behind a tit-for-tat, heavy-handed retaliation and forgive them for pretending it's "self defence". I view it as a country and believe it has a right to take military action to get back its hostages. I also view it as euphemistic to describe its actions in Gaza as"heavy-handed retaliation". If it was any other country, there wouldn't be as much cowardice when it came to describing its actions as brutal and savage. We rightly villify Russia for doing less in Ukraine.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      You are shadowbanned, consider contacting the mods
- demondemidi 3y ago
  It just doesn’t make sense that a people who experienced ethnic cleansing would turn around and have a go at it. I just. Don’t. Get it.
oldpersonintx 3y ago
Regardless of your position (or lack thereof) on this conflict...I can't see why typical American employees of Intel would want to subject themselves to the safety risk of being in Israel. Hamas will eventually re-emerge (or something worse), and it is impossible for the Israeli government to provide security guarantees. Do you really want to be there on the day Iron Dome is finally overwhelmed or out-smarted? It will eventually happen. I'm not sure Israel will ever be considered safe for general work/leisure travel again...which may be a small victory for Hamas...they've changed the status quo forever.
myth_drannon 3y ago
[flagged]
Qem 3y ago
> Israel’s government agreed to give Intel a $3.2 billion grant for a new $25 billion chip plant it plans to build in southern Israel I don't buy Intel processors since 2012, at least. They just gave me another reason to keep it that way for the foreseeable future. I don't want my computer running on silicon from sands used to bury the bodies of bombed children.
demondemidi 3y ago
It’s basically us taxpayer money going to intel by way of Israel. Nice.
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  [flagged]
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  I think it's going to be very hard for US politicians to make the case to continue to fund Israel. They may get away with it while the Baby Boomers are still around, but it's all but certain to be cutoff in the near future.
bluefishinit 3y ago
I was really shocked to see how many major corporations had large offices in Israel. I don't think that's going to be tenable going forward. Everyone I know is looking for ways to reduce their exposure to Israel. Boycotting Intel seems like a no brainer. Also I really don't see stability coming to Israel any time soon. They've lost what global support they had, they're losing the war with Hamas and it's expanding to Hezbollah and the Houthis have successfully blockaded the Red Sea. Add in the fact that none of the younger generations in the west support Israel and it's pretty clear that at best it's going to be chaos for decades in the region, likely ending in a South Africa style ending of apartheid.

10 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

hypeit 3y ago

[flagged]

DamnYuppie 3y ago
Many people in the "west" do not consider Palestinians as past, present, or future allies. In fact most view them as a threat to western ideas.
- hypeit 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - kmos17 3y ago
    Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. As justified as you may think your morale position is, it does not justify promulgating another genocide as the answer. The labels of colonialism and genocide to what is happening there completely close you off to an actual honest discussion of the situation. Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition?
    - mrkeen 3y ago
      > Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition? I'm not sure. Just reading it now, it looks like Palestine was cut in half, and half got given to the Jews. Was my reading incorrect? How should I tie that action to colonialism?
      - kmos17 3y ago
        I meant that the simplistic view that Israel is a colonial state is misguided and distorting the discussion. When the partition happened jewish populations were also forced into exile by Arab states yet this is never even discussed alongside the Nakba: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-ar... That doesn’t excuse what Israel does in Gaza or the West Bank, but it is not a simple evil Israel vs. oppressed Palestinians situation that it is made out to be, and this is not a colonial state vs. indigenous population struggle either, both sides have valid claims and are mostly indigenous to the land being fought over. The narrative that this is a colonial struggle is extremely dangerous (what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state?) and it will not lead to a solution since it is a complete non-starter for Israel. Labelling what is happening - which is horrific enough as it is - a genocide is also a vast exaggeration at best and really inaccurate, and it is a very powerful propaganda tool being used to dehumanize Israelis as a whole (if it is genocide they are acting inhumanely and anything done to them should be ignored or dismissed like the reaction to Oct 7 shows).
        Qem 3y ago
        > what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state? No. To follow the steps of South Africa, and end apartheid.
        hypeit 3y ago
        [flagged]
        kmos17 3y ago
        If you are going to make such hyperbolic statements as saying the current rate of killing is faster than the nazis, you might want to do a quick google search first: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 And again think of what you are stating as fact, you are parroting a very single sided view of history, that Israel is a colonial state, but even if you were right, what is your solution? There are effectively two states with millions of natives, and they both vehemently do not want to live together in a single state.
    - Qem 3y ago
      > Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. No. Just like thinking apartheid South Africa as racist didn't deny it the right to exist as a nation. South Africa still exists as a nation, as any online map shows. It just don't exist as an apartheid regime anymore. Israel can do the same.
      - kmos17 3y ago
        Yes apartheid is a label that can be applied but only when talking about the occupied territories, what Israel is doing in the West Bank is a system of population control that seems very close to or worst than apartheid, and with the colonist movement backed by the Israeli army it is effectively a form of ethnic cleansing, albeit a very ineffective one so far considering the growth of the Palestinian population. But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Calling Israel an apartheid state because of what they do in the West Bank is a stretch, it would be like calling the USA a military fascist dictatorship because of what they did in Iraq. And regardless of wanting to think of the whole of Palestine as a single country, the most important fact is the Palestinians and Israeli have absolutely no desire to live together in a single state, the only option the vast majority of Palestinians want is a single Palestinian state with no Israelis or jews (from the river to the sea). The Israelis are split but most favor a two state solution. So your simplistic solution is not one that is grounded in any reality, it is a pure fantasy and projection of western virtue, and if you had any understanding of the actual situation you would realize that what you are advocating for (the dissolution of Israel and Palestine into a single state) will only happen with the genocide (an actual one) of one of the two populations fighting over that piece of land. Maybe it can happen one day with the two populations living in peace, but that is certainly not the case now, and all the hysteric propaganda is making it even less likely.
        Qem 3y ago
        > But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have a different assessment: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... Amnesty Q&A on Israel's Apartheid: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-of-domination-and-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israel...
  - throw310822 3y ago
    The West has found colonialism and ethnic cleansing unacceptable for a long time... except for Israel, which capitalises on the Holocaust and manages to engage in both while depicting itself as the eternal victim.
mrkeen 3y ago
Sounds great, but I don't think Israel suffered a net PR loss in the last few months. It all depends on your priors. If you think of Israel as a country, you could totally get behind a tit-for-tat, heavy-handed retaliation and forgive them for pretending it's "self defence". If you think of it as a 50+ year-old ongoing invasion/genocide, then you'd feel differently.
- cornercasechase 3y ago
  Opinion has continually shifted away from Israel since Oct 7th according to polls: https://archive.is/6b4lS https://archive.is/6b4lS (Washington Post article) What’s not measured is how strongly people under the age of 45 feel about Israel. I know my social group went from abstract Palestinian support to extreme Palestinian support as they’ve been radicalized by Israel’s actions since Oct 7th.
- catlover76 3y ago
  > If you think of Israel as a country, you could totally get behind a tit-for-tat, heavy-handed retaliation and forgive them for pretending it's "self defence". I view it as a country and believe it has a right to take military action to get back its hostages. I also view it as euphemistic to describe its actions in Gaza as"heavy-handed retaliation". If it was any other country, there wouldn't be as much cowardice when it came to describing its actions as brutal and savage. We rightly villify Russia for doing less in Ukraine.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    You are shadowbanned, consider contacting the mods
demondemidi 3y ago
It just doesn’t make sense that a people who experienced ethnic cleansing would turn around and have a go at it. I just. Don’t. Get it.

oldpersonintx 3y ago

Regardless of your position (or lack thereof) on this conflict...I can't see why typical American employees of Intel would want to subject themselves to the safety risk of being in Israel. Hamas will eventually re-emerge (or something worse), and it is impossible for the Israeli government to provide security guarantees. Do you really want to be there on the day Iron Dome is finally overwhelmed or out-smarted? It will eventually happen. I'm not sure Israel will ever be considered safe for general work/leisure travel again...which may be a small victory for Hamas...they've changed the status quo forever.

myth_drannon 3y ago

[flagged]

Qem 3y ago

> Israel’s government agreed to give Intel a $3.2 billion grant for a new $25 billion chip plant it plans to build in southern Israel I don't buy Intel processors since 2012, at least. They just gave me another reason to keep it that way for the foreseeable future. I don't want my computer running on silicon from sands used to bury the bodies of bombed children.

demondemidi 3y ago

It’s basically us taxpayer money going to intel by way of Israel. Nice.

myth_drannon 3y ago
[flagged]
bluefishinit 3y ago
I think it's going to be very hard for US politicians to make the case to continue to fund Israel. They may get away with it while the Baby Boomers are still around, but it's all but certain to be cutoff in the near future.

bluefishinit 3y ago

I was really shocked to see how many major corporations had large offices in Israel. I don't think that's going to be tenable going forward. Everyone I know is looking for ways to reduce their exposure to Israel. Boycotting Intel seems like a no brainer. Also I really don't see stability coming to Israel any time soon. They've lost what global support they had, they're losing the war with Hamas and it's expanding to Hezbollah and the Houthis have successfully blockaded the Red Sea. Add in the fact that none of the younger generations in the west support Israel and it's pretty clear that at best it's going to be chaos for decades in the region, likely ending in a South Africa style ending of apartheid.