5 ms·

The first time I was reading about matter, I was also watching the last season of The Expanse (a hard sci-fi series). In that show, technology mostly just happe

by 9dev 3y ago

The first time I was reading about matter, I was also watching the last season of The Expanse (a hard sci-fi series). In that show, technology mostly just happens in the background, despite being central to the plot often. I think that is because the characters tend to have a very nonchalant way of using it: Whatever terminal is nearest can be used to interact with stuff in vicinity. There are no boundaries between devices, services, or the like; everything communicates with everything else, over any channel available, without further thinking. If we ever get past showing off how the ceiling bulb can do red light, maybe we could start having a protocol for automatic device capability negotiation/discovery?

plasticchris 3y ago
Something with zero configuration?
- 9dev 3y ago
  Yes, well, mostly: I’d expect you’d have to add new things to your network with some level of confirmation once–if anything, proper auth should be baked in. But after that, wouldn’t it be great if you didn’t have separate devices anymore, but a single digital identity across all of them, with an interface to control unique capabilities of each of them? For a banal example - there’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to set a timer on our phone, and check it on a computer, or kitchen counter display. On the other hand, I can’t check on the progress of my vacuum robot from my laptop, because the vendor only offers a mobile app. I can’t pull the stats from my car at all, I can’t check a hard drive without plugging it into something compatible, I can’t easily send a big file to someone nearby. Technology should allow us to do all that. Devices should promote their capabilities and offer a standard interface to control them, and simultaneously be able to display controls for the interface of other devices, depending on available means of input. Done well, this can actually be zero config.
  - skydhash 3y ago
    The closest to this is the Apple ecosystem. Most of their hardware works together, but sadly it's closed.
    - 9dev 3y ago
      It comes closest, although my „vision“ is bigger; I hope it will become feasible to let any device communicate with any other, even classes of devices or sensors that don’t even exist yet.
api 3y ago
There is zero incentive to create or support such a thing. No recurring revenue or lock in opportunities. It could only happen if it were mandated. Open source could do it in theory, but only for nerds. Open source can’t create mass adoptable products because making technology easy to use is fabulously expensive and difficult.
- omnicognate 3y ago
  So if the market can't achieve this, regulate. We live in a world built on standards, but industries like IoT have developed since the US went batshit and decided that sort of thing amounts to impurifying precious bodily fluids. Maybe the EU will do something to sort it out.
  - ShittyKickflips 3y ago
    Maybe you are forgetting software industry is pretty inmature. Thats why we struggle with standards, quality, hell even job description (engineer is in certain countries regulated job name). Not mentioning interoperabilty, long term support (ics/scada anyone) or security. This is still wild wild west in 1850+. Civilization is pushing but…
- 9dev 3y ago
  Some things shouldn’t depend on market incentive. This is a fundamental problem with technology, which by and large is unaware of any other technology than itself. This makes it burdensome to use several devices together in a useful manner. Going forward, I don’t think anyone would dispute there’s going to be more tech around. Maybe it’s time for something truly progressive, and mandate this? I don’t think the market alone would create a unified rail or telephone network. Yet that has brought immense benefits for society at large, and vendors still manage to capitalise on top of the plumbing.
- mwcampbell 3y ago
  What if governments mandated educating everyone to be tech-literate? Could we reduce the gap between the current tech-savvy elite and everyone else?
em-bee 3y ago
isn't that the promise of the web? if you have an account online somewhere you can log in from any device. the device itself is merely a machine to run the code downloaded from your online account. you could do everything though that account and treat the device like a dumb terminal. any specific device that provides special functions, like your car, could also connect to that account and upload its data there, so you can access it from anywhere else. technically this is already possible today.
- skydhash 3y ago
  AFAIK, the purposes of the web was sharing information, building a corpus of knowledge by everyone interacting with each other, and it was so for sometime until the advent of the algorithms and walled gardens. I started on the web a bit late, and it was because I wanted to learn how to draw and play the guitar. There was a lot of weird sites build on Wordpress sharing tutorials and multiple forums with people interacting just like this one. Soon after FB came and almost everyone switches to pages and groups, and some years after you can barely find anything on google. I wouldn't mind connected services, but when my data is held hostage and the one in control is a faceless company, it does not feel like technology anymore, something that would help you accomplish your task better. Take my smart tv, I would be glad to connect it to my network and not bother with the apple tv when I want to play a movie, but the last time I tried, it tried to forcefully upgrade itself and wouldn't let me skip some onboarding screen that tried to get me to create an account. I had to unplug it. Or when some headphones or mouse manufacturers want me to use bloated proprietary apps just to configure them. While what you describe is technically feasible, it never feel like this as tech companies always start a conflict with their (paying) users by taking their data hostage, enshitifying their platforms, and destroying any attempt of integration.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    you are absolutely right. what i describe is what i'd wish we had, and what i think the web would have evolved into if walled gardens hadn't happened. it is still possible though as long we are able to retain the ability to host our own services and if we are working on making that easier for everyone. i don't know if my idea how to do this is to simple, but essentially, i think what is needed is the ability to connect all my devices into a virtual network, where some of these devices act as connection portals to allow me to interact with them from any other device. i think the hardest part is the security of these remote devices so they don't leak my credentials to others using the same device later.
figassis 3y ago
The only way this would ever work is if we have a body with authority that defines/approves standards (I guess with industry input), and devices that claim to do X must be certified, and certification must be clear during purchase. Customers can then choose to only buy certified devices. I’m very willing to sacrifice some flashy feature for interoperability. And this should be across domains. A data or diagnostics scanner for example should be able to retrieve data from my car, from my fridge and from my hear rate monitor.

by 9dev 3y ago

plasticchris 3y ago

Something with zero configuration?

9dev 3y ago
Yes, well, mostly: I’d expect you’d have to add new things to your network with some level of confirmation once–if anything, proper auth should be baked in. But after that, wouldn’t it be great if you didn’t have separate devices anymore, but a single digital identity across all of them, with an interface to control unique capabilities of each of them? For a banal example - there’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to set a timer on our phone, and check it on a computer, or kitchen counter display. On the other hand, I can’t check on the progress of my vacuum robot from my laptop, because the vendor only offers a mobile app. I can’t pull the stats from my car at all, I can’t check a hard drive without plugging it into something compatible, I can’t easily send a big file to someone nearby. Technology should allow us to do all that. Devices should promote their capabilities and offer a standard interface to control them, and simultaneously be able to display controls for the interface of other devices, depending on available means of input. Done well, this can actually be zero config.
- skydhash 3y ago
  The closest to this is the Apple ecosystem. Most of their hardware works together, but sadly it's closed.
  - 9dev 3y ago
    It comes closest, although my „vision“ is bigger; I hope it will become feasible to let any device communicate with any other, even classes of devices or sensors that don’t even exist yet.

api 3y ago

There is zero incentive to create or support such a thing. No recurring revenue or lock in opportunities. It could only happen if it were mandated. Open source could do it in theory, but only for nerds. Open source can’t create mass adoptable products because making technology easy to use is fabulously expensive and difficult.

omnicognate 3y ago
So if the market can't achieve this, regulate. We live in a world built on standards, but industries like IoT have developed since the US went batshit and decided that sort of thing amounts to impurifying precious bodily fluids. Maybe the EU will do something to sort it out.
- ShittyKickflips 3y ago
  Maybe you are forgetting software industry is pretty inmature. Thats why we struggle with standards, quality, hell even job description (engineer is in certain countries regulated job name). Not mentioning interoperabilty, long term support (ics/scada anyone) or security. This is still wild wild west in 1850+. Civilization is pushing but…
9dev 3y ago
Some things shouldn’t depend on market incentive. This is a fundamental problem with technology, which by and large is unaware of any other technology than itself. This makes it burdensome to use several devices together in a useful manner. Going forward, I don’t think anyone would dispute there’s going to be more tech around. Maybe it’s time for something truly progressive, and mandate this? I don’t think the market alone would create a unified rail or telephone network. Yet that has brought immense benefits for society at large, and vendors still manage to capitalise on top of the plumbing.
mwcampbell 3y ago
What if governments mandated educating everyone to be tech-literate? Could we reduce the gap between the current tech-savvy elite and everyone else?

em-bee 3y ago

isn't that the promise of the web? if you have an account online somewhere you can log in from any device. the device itself is merely a machine to run the code downloaded from your online account. you could do everything though that account and treat the device like a dumb terminal. any specific device that provides special functions, like your car, could also connect to that account and upload its data there, so you can access it from anywhere else. technically this is already possible today.

skydhash 3y ago
AFAIK, the purposes of the web was sharing information, building a corpus of knowledge by everyone interacting with each other, and it was so for sometime until the advent of the algorithms and walled gardens. I started on the web a bit late, and it was because I wanted to learn how to draw and play the guitar. There was a lot of weird sites build on Wordpress sharing tutorials and multiple forums with people interacting just like this one. Soon after FB came and almost everyone switches to pages and groups, and some years after you can barely find anything on google. I wouldn't mind connected services, but when my data is held hostage and the one in control is a faceless company, it does not feel like technology anymore, something that would help you accomplish your task better. Take my smart tv, I would be glad to connect it to my network and not bother with the apple tv when I want to play a movie, but the last time I tried, it tried to forcefully upgrade itself and wouldn't let me skip some onboarding screen that tried to get me to create an account. I had to unplug it. Or when some headphones or mouse manufacturers want me to use bloated proprietary apps just to configure them. While what you describe is technically feasible, it never feel like this as tech companies always start a conflict with their (paying) users by taking their data hostage, enshitifying their platforms, and destroying any attempt of integration.
- em-bee 3y ago
  you are absolutely right. what i describe is what i'd wish we had, and what i think the web would have evolved into if walled gardens hadn't happened. it is still possible though as long we are able to retain the ability to host our own services and if we are working on making that easier for everyone. i don't know if my idea how to do this is to simple, but essentially, i think what is needed is the ability to connect all my devices into a virtual network, where some of these devices act as connection portals to allow me to interact with them from any other device. i think the hardest part is the security of these remote devices so they don't leak my credentials to others using the same device later.

figassis 3y ago

The only way this would ever work is if we have a body with authority that defines/approves standards (I guess with industry input), and devices that claim to do X must be certified, and certification must be clear during purchase. Customers can then choose to only buy certified devices. I’m very willing to sacrifice some flashy feature for interoperability. And this should be across domains. A data or diagnostics scanner for example should be able to retrieve data from my car, from my fridge and from my hear rate monitor.